Stanford Law clerkship chances

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Stanford Law clerkship chances

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:39 pm

SLS 1L here. I'm hoping some SLS 2Ls or 3Ls can shed light on what kind of grades a SLS applicant needs to be competitive for federal clerkships. Specifically, what percentage of Hs/Ps does one typically need to have a shot at an appellate court clerkship vs a district court clerkship?
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Stanford Law clerkship chances

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:54 pm

Go to your clerkship office

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Re: Stanford Law clerkship chances

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:59 pm

I think he wants to know what students have to say, not career services. I'd be curious to know this as well.

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Re: Stanford Law clerkship chances

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I think he wants to know what students have to say, not career services. I'd be curious to know this as well.

OP, don't use anon to sockpuppet yourself.

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Re: Stanford Law clerkship chances

Postby rpupkin » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:40 pm

Depending on the judge, your experience, and your recommenders, the answer is anything from straight Ps to straight Hs.

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Re: Stanford Law clerkship chances

Postby bruinfan10 » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:17 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I think he wants to know what students have to say, not career services. I'd be curious to know this as well.

OP, don't use anon to sockpuppet yourself.

:lol: You're the best Nony. In all fairness though, not the worst example of anon abuse I've seen by a mile.

OP, I'm assuming you're super new to this whole thing given that you didn't break down what you mean by "federal clerkships." There are like four levels of fed clerkships by my lights: (1) non-Article III, such as magistrates and bankruptcy, (2) federal district court, (3) federal appeals/circuit court, and (4) feeder and SCOTUS clerkships. You need to identify which type of federal clerkship you're interested in, and in what district or circuit, for even a knowledgeable Stanford kid to give you the info you want.

Beyond that, I will say you're in a great spot for clerkships coming out of SLS. HLS kids are a dime a dozen; the chambers in which I've worked have always been flooded with HLS apps given the degree-mill size of the school. They have some benefit over you given their massive alumni network, but all things considered your small class size puts you in a great position compared to them. You also have an edge in the California/PNW districts and the Ninth Circuit, which are among the hardest clerkships to attain. So you're looking good. But you need to provide way more info on your goals. Welcome to the clerkship game, may the odds be ever in your favor.

P.S. It's kind of bizarre that you're anonymously posting on TLS to solicit information from SLS 2Ls/3Ls when you um...go to the school. Are you scurred of talking to classmates or something? Track down some law review nerd, they'll have all this info on lock--upperclassmen were monumentally helpful in my clerkship searches.

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Re: Stanford Law clerkship chances

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:04 pm

I found the profs on the clerkship committee and the head of clerkships in OCS to be pretty honest with me on my chances. Anything I say here would just be parroting what they said so I'm not going to bother.

I will say that if you have any interest in 9th Cir. or D.C. you must apply over the summer or during fall quarter 2L. I waited until fall quarter grades came in, and even though I did really well I didn't have a shot at any of the Pasadena/SF judges I liked because they'd pretty much all already hired. If I could do it again, I would've thrown together an app at the end of the summer and applied to all the d. ct. in cities I liked for 2016-2017, then applied to COA for 2017-2018 with my 2L fall grades.

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Re: Stanford Law clerkship chances

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:16 pm

I'd say 50/50 Hs/Ps is probably the minimum bar to be competitive for a fed COA clerkship, assuming you're geographically flexible--in that I'd guess that the average SLS candidate who applies broadly with those credentials will get a fed COA clerkship more often than not. You can get away with more Ps if you have other compensating factors (great recs, a prof who knows judges, one or more book prizes, a second legit grad degree, a published work, etc).

I'd say 2/3 Hs with at least one book prize is probably where you need to be for one of the top ~15 feeder clerkships (same caveats apply).

I don't have as good of a sense for district court clerkships. If you're willing to work a year or two in biglaw and are geographically flexible, I bet you're probably looking at something closer to 1/3 Hs, but this is an estimate with a low amount of confidence.

My bet is that there is no minimum number of Hs to be competitive for an MJ clerkship. I don't think a single person from my class, though, did an MJ clerkship, so it's hard to say. My sense is that the folks who really want to clerk and don't land A3 clerkships usually end up in state supreme court clerkships (often Alaska, which I'd personally take over the average A3 district court clerkship).

A good rule of thumb for the above is that to move from having a >50% chance to being pretty comfortable, I'd just look up one level of selectivity--e.g., if you have 2/3 Hs with a book prize, applying broadly you're almost certainly going to land multiple fed COA interviews. I'd imagine, likewise, that if you have 50% Hs, applying broadly, you're almost certain to land multiple fed district court interviews.

One last thought: obviously grades are only part of the equation. For example, law review is generally expected, especially for the more competitive clerkships. You can mitigate the lack of law review with a board position on a secondary journal, but even so, it will likely be an obstacle for feeder clerkships. (For some judges it will be a dealkiller, while for others it'll be a minor speedbump.) My recommendation, though, is that if you don't make law review (or don't want to do law review), plan on doing something else to make up for it.

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Re: Stanford Law clerkship chances

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'd say 50/50 Hs/Ps is probably the minimum bar to be competitive for a fed COA clerkship, assuming you're geographically flexible--in that I'd guess that the average SLS candidate who applies broadly with those credentials will get a fed COA clerkship more often than not. You can get away with more Ps if you have other compensating factors (great recs, a prof who knows judges, one or more book prizes, a second legit grad degree, a published work, etc).

I'd say 2/3 Hs with at least one book prize is probably where you need to be for one of the top ~15 feeder clerkships (same caveats apply).


I'm the previous anon.

It's not that important--apply where you want--but I would say IMO this is over optimistic. I would not waste recommender calls to feeders if you have less than 75% Hs and at least four, but preferably more, book prizes. This is based on talking to profs and knowing how classmates have done, as well as my own experience. If you have 50% Hs I would avoid using all your calls on COA also, but I'm less sure about this. All these grades are for post-1L; if you're including fall 2L grades the proportions required are higher because generally you'll get good grades fall 2L if you try at all.

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Re: Stanford Law clerkship chances

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'd say 50/50 Hs/Ps is probably the minimum bar to be competitive for a fed COA clerkship, assuming you're geographically flexible--in that I'd guess that the average SLS candidate who applies broadly with those credentials will get a fed COA clerkship more often than not. You can get away with more Ps if you have other compensating factors (great recs, a prof who knows judges, one or more book prizes, a second legit grad degree, a published work, etc).

I'd say 2/3 Hs with at least one book prize is probably where you need to be for one of the top ~15 feeder clerkships (same caveats apply).


I'm the previous anon.

It's not that important--apply where you want--but I would say IMO this is over optimistic. I would not waste recommender calls to feeders if you have less than 75% Hs and at least four, but preferably more, book prizes. This is based on talking to profs and knowing how classmates have done, as well as my own experience. If you have 50% Hs I would avoid using all your calls on COA also, but I'm less sure about this. All these grades are for post-1L; if you're including fall 2L grades the proportions required are higher because generally you'll get good grades fall 2L if you try at all.


I'm the person who you quoted. I totally disagree: 75% Hs and 4 book prizes would have been probably the #5 person in my class by the end of 2L year (give or take a bit depending on how much weight you want to put on book awards vs Hs)--and my sense is that most feeder judges were willing to look seriously down to about the top 10% of the class (which was just a hair above the 50/50 mark in my year).

I suppose there's a lot of year-to-year variation, and some years the grades may be less or more clustered, but I do think that 66% Hs with a book prize or two is in pretty safe territory for fed COA clerkships--assuming, at least that you're willing to apply broadly. In terms of people who I personally know who applied for clerkships, I can't think of anyone with these sorts of grades with law review who applied broadly and aggressively and didn't end up with a COA clerkship. I think the "worst case scenario" that I can think of for someone with about ~60% Hs that I knew of struck out his 2L year and landed a plum COA clerkship with a newly-appointed judge in his 3L year (and this guy was not on law review). And, I'm not sure if I know of anyone with >50% Hs who was not only willing to apply broadly, but to apply for COA clerkships that either followed a district court clerkship or a year or two of other work experience, who didn't ultimately get a COA clerkship (although this is obviously a tighter proposition).

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Re: Stanford Law clerkship chances

Postby rpupkin » Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm the person who you quoted. I totally disagree: 75% Hs and 4 book prizes would have been probably the #5 person in my class by the end of 2L year (give or take a bit depending on how much weight you want to put on book awards vs Hs)

Whoa. Based what I saw when reviewing clerkship apps, this seems way off. Someone with 75% Hs and 4 book prizes after 2L at SLS would be more like #15 than #5.


Anonymous User wrote:and my sense is that most feeder judges were willing to look seriously down to about the top 10% of the class (which was around the 50/50 mark in my year).

I'm sorry: there's no way that a 50/50 distribution of Hs and Ps is top 10% at SLS. Barring an unusual circumstance, those grades are not nearly competitive enough for feeder COA judges (unless you're relying on a very broad definition of "feeder").


I suppose there's a lot of year-to-year variation, and some years the grades may be less or more clustered, but I do think that 66% Hs with a book prize or two is in pretty safe territory for fed COA clerkships--assuming, at least that you're willing to apply broadly.

I do agree with this. A lot of COA clerkships are easier to get than the more competitive district court clerkships. SLS (and HLS and YLS) students who apply broadly tend to do well. You can snag a COA clerkship with median grades out of SLS with the right recommender.

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Re: Stanford Law clerkship chances

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm the person who you quoted. I totally disagree: 75% Hs and 4 book prizes would have been probably the #5 person in my class by the end of 2L year (give or take a bit depending on how much weight you want to put on book awards vs Hs)--and my sense is that most feeder judges were willing to look seriously down to about the top 10% of the class (which was just a hair above the 50/50 mark in my year).


If this is true then our years have very different grade distributions. I have about 75% Hs I'm around top 10%, which puts my in the top 18 students (but no where near top 5).

(I'm that other anon)

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Re: Stanford Law clerkship chances

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm the person who you quoted. I totally disagree: 75% Hs and 4 book prizes would have been probably the #5 person in my class by the end of 2L year (give or take a bit depending on how much weight you want to put on book awards vs Hs)--and my sense is that most feeder judges were willing to look seriously down to about the top 10% of the class (which was just a hair above the 50/50 mark in my year).


If this is true then our years have very different grade distributions. I have about 75% Hs I'm around top 10%, which puts my in the top 18 students (but no where near top 5).

(I'm that other anon)


Yea, must be a lot of year-to-year variation. I was told that nobody in my year graduated with straight Hs, incidentally. My comments are based on talking with two profs I think we'd all agree would be likely to know.

I also think there's also a lot of variation with how much different judges weigh Hs, Ps, and book awards with the other parts of the application. I've heard that Judge Fletcher (CA9) is incredibly strict about Ps, whereas I know some of the most competitive competitive judges are happy to take 2Ls with 5-10 Ps (over 5-6 quarters) when the candidate also has multiple book awards, law review, and other things going for them.

Finally, like you mentioned, median at Stanford is competitive for a COA clerkship (although I think that it's worse than a 50/50 proposition). Note that my estimates are calibrated to someone who is happy to take a COA somewhere (whereas your responses seem more directed to people who are shooting for some of the more desirable clerkships)--things obviously are more difficult for a competitive circuit or competitive judge.

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Re: Stanford Law clerkship chances

Postby rpupkin » Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Yea, must be a lot of year-to-year variation. I was told that nobody in my year graduated with straight Hs, incidentally. My comments are based on talking with two profs I think we'd all agree would be likely to know.

Now that I can believe. But, again, there's just no way that an equal mix of Hs and Ps is top 10%. If nothing else, it's statistically improbable. And I think I've seen enough SLS transcripts (both at my clerkship and at my current job) from enough years to realize that your professors' estimates are off.

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Re: Stanford Law clerkship chances

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:07 pm

rpupkin wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Yea, must be a lot of year-to-year variation. I was told that nobody in my year graduated with straight Hs, incidentally. My comments are based on talking with two profs I think we'd all agree would be likely to know.

Now that I can believe. But, again, there's just no way that an equal mix of Hs and Ps is top 10%. If nothing else, it's statistically improbable. And I think I've seen enough SLS transcripts (both at my clerkship and at my current job) from enough years to realize that your professors' estimates are off.


To be clear, I think they said that they thought the 10% cutoff in my year was something like 3 more Hs than Ps by the end of 2L year, which I averaged out to 50% but is actually closer to 55% now that I actually have done the math.

In any event, this is all pretty besides the point because there isn't really a way to rank folks out of SLS--something that every prof I've ever talked to about this has gone to great pains to pointing out (especially since many classes--including some large lectures--are not book award eligible). I think we really agree on the basic points here, which are that 2/3 or 3/4 Hs with a couple of book prizes constitute killer grades, and the OP needs to be shooting for more Hs than Ps if (s)he wants to be competitive for a federal clerkship--but that pretty much no grades will disqualify the OP for a clerkship given the right other circumstances.

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Re: Stanford Law clerkship chances

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:13 pm

rpupkin wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Yea, must be a lot of year-to-year variation. I was told that nobody in my year graduated with straight Hs, incidentally. My comments are based on talking with two profs I think we'd all agree would be likely to know.

Now that I can believe. But, again, there's just no way that an equal mix of Hs and Ps is top 10%. If nothing else, it's statistically improbable. And I think I've seen enough SLS transcripts (both at my clerkship and at my current job) from enough years to realize that your professors' estimates are off.


From reviewing clerkship apps over the last couple years, no Ps at the end of 2L certainly isn't unheard of. Pretty sure I saw more than one straight-H-at-graduation transcript too.

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Re: Stanford Law clerkship chances

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 11, 2015 10:27 pm

Current 3L here. I can say with fairly high confidence that no one in my class finished 1L without any Ps. And a professor I trust told me that you typically need--and I quote--"a preponderance of Hs" to be competitive for appellate courts.

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Re: Stanford Law clerkship chances

Postby rpupkin » Sat Apr 11, 2015 10:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Current 3L here. I can say with fairly high confidence that no one in my class finished 1L without any Ps. And a professor I trust told me that you typically need--and I quote--"a preponderance of Hs" to be competitive for appellate courts.

So you're class of 2015? I am 100% sure you're wrong.

I think people overlook a few things: (1) sometimes, the people who do really, really well in law school are quiet types who don't share their outstanding grades with others; (2) sometimes, even "professors in the know" don't know every single person's grades; and (3) professors have a tendency to make their students feel better about their relative academic performance. If your school doesn't formally rank, why not overestimate a student's rank to make him or her feel better and more confident?

Having said all that, I agree that having mostly Hs at SLS makes one competitive for appellate court clerkships.

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Re: Stanford Law clerkship chances

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 11, 2015 11:50 pm

So you're class of 2015? I am 100% sure you're wrong.


Fair enough. You sound a lot more confident than I am.

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Re: Stanford Law clerkship chances

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:59 pm

um.

well

more Hs than Ps I think is a great place to be for COA clerkship. i can't really speak to the other arguments in here.

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Re: Stanford Law clerkship chances

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:55 pm

2013 SLS grad and d. ct. clerk here. These are my thoughts, which are pretty anecdotal but could be helpful. At last count, it seems like about half my class has clerked or has accepted a future clerkship (one section was over 60 percent, but that seems to be an outlier). Keep in mind the normal caveat that a lot of us applied as the plan was breaking down, so I have very little insight on what sort of 1L grades you need for feeders - my guess, however, would be 10+ to feel confident, with at least one book prize.

First, there's not a good answer to "how many Hs." As a general rule, having done apps myself and reviewed apps for my judge, I'd say a transcript that looks to be about half Hs would make it past the first round of review in our chambers (one of ND Cal/CD Cal), and I'd say we're in the middle range of grade-snobbiness in our district. As a point of reference, I got my clerkship with about 40% Hs, no SLR, and a nearly straight-P 3L.

That brings me to my second point: nearly everyone who has applied to clerk from practice has snagged a clerkship. A few of us left SLS wanting to clerk and having not gotten anything. I started applying after the bar and wound up getting a clerkship pretty quickly for a year after I started working. Firm was supportive, judge was happy I had some practice experience, and I got to save some money and make the pay cut manageable for the year. It was win-win.

Third, personality matters. I have a few friends who are great people (and great students) but who don't come off well in short interviews. One had 75%+ Hs and hasn't been able to get a clerkship. I have another friend from my year with fewer than 5 Hs who is clerking. {As an aside, people seem to be much more willing to talk grades after graduating. I never would've known these things while in school.}

Fourth, for competitive COAs, I would say that folks I know with 2/3 Hs and 1-2 book prizes were able to get COA clerkships. SLR didn't seem to matter that much, as two of the people clerking for semi-feeders didn't have it.

In practical terms, if I'm a 1L who finished fall with 3-4 Hs, so I'm comfortably doing well, I'd really be thinking of scheduling the next three quarters in terms of maximizing Hs. Independent research 2L fall is a free H. Take American Legal History (or whatever that class is called) and actually do your paper right away - basically a free H. Don't take Evidence, Corporations, or Intro to IR as a 1L, since multiple choice exams with 150 people are crapshoots (and you don't want to be taking an evidence exam while you're also taking two doctrinal 1L exams). Take the classes 3Ls are taking and actually try. Take a paper class 1L spring and write a damn good paper before the SLR write-on. Take classes that pass as doctrinal but aren't popular and aren't that tough (employment law is a good example, wills and trusts is another).

Fifth, and this is important: if you have more than a smattering of Hs, recommenders who like you and actually know you, and are willing to apply widely, it's more likely than not you'll get a clerkship. You might have to go back to your home state or somewhere sort of random, and you might have to work for a year first, but you'll probably get a clerkship. There will be outliers who don't, but you probably will. If nearly half the class is clerking and more than 1/4 of the class is corporate/joint degree/not practicing as a lawyer (I think a fair estimate, I'd peg that number as about 3 in 10), that means identifiably below-median people are getting clerkships.

Happy to take any questions from folks as someone who went through the process, struck out in my first set of apps, and then wound up with a great clerkship later.

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Re: Stanford Law clerkship chances

Postby Yukos » Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:45 pm

rpupkin wrote:Now that I can believe. But, again, there's just no way that an equal mix of Hs and Ps is top 10%. If nothing else, it's statistically improbable. And I think I've seen enough SLS transcripts (both at my clerkship and at my current job) from enough years to realize that your professors' estimates are off.


Your post history says you took the LSAT in December 2013, so I'm curious how you've done a clerkship already.

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Re: Stanford Law clerkship chances

Postby bruinfan10 » Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:06 pm

Yukos wrote:
rpupkin wrote:Now that I can believe. But, again, there's just no way that an equal mix of Hs and Ps is top 10%. If nothing else, it's statistically improbable. And I think I've seen enough SLS transcripts (both at my clerkship and at my current job) from enough years to realize that your professors' estimates are off.


Your post history says you took the LSAT in December 2013, so I'm curious how you've done a clerkship already.

lol i also thought pupkin was a current student but he's actually a practicing attorney.

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Re: Stanford Law clerkship chances

Postby rpupkin » Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:15 pm

Yukos wrote:
rpupkin wrote:Now that I can believe. But, again, there's just no way that an equal mix of Hs and Ps is top 10%. If nothing else, it's statistically improbable. And I think I've seen enough SLS transcripts (both at my clerkship and at my current job) from enough years to realize that your professors' estimates are off.


Your post history says you took the LSAT in December 2013, so I'm curious how you've done a clerkship already.

LOL. Read that LSAT thread. It's a troll. For the record, please also note that I do not go bowling on Thursdays with Justice Alito, have not done an 18-month legal externship in Antarctica, and do not have access to special "inside information" concerning the USNWR rankings.

Sorry, I like to have fun on here sometimes, but most of my advice is grounded in actual experience.

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Re: Stanford Law clerkship chances

Postby Yukos » Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:38 pm

rpupkin wrote:
Yukos wrote:
rpupkin wrote:Now that I can believe. But, again, there's just no way that an equal mix of Hs and Ps is top 10%. If nothing else, it's statistically improbable. And I think I've seen enough SLS transcripts (both at my clerkship and at my current job) from enough years to realize that your professors' estimates are off.


Your post history says you took the LSAT in December 2013, so I'm curious how you've done a clerkship already.

LOL. Read that LSAT thread. It's a troll. For the record, please also note that I do not go bowling on Thursdays with Justice Alito, have not done an 18-month legal externship in Antarctica, and do not have access to special "inside information" concerning the USNWR rankings.

Sorry, I like to have fun on here sometimes, but most of my advice is grounded in actual experience.


Fair enough.




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