Timing

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Timing

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:22 pm

I sent my applications out at the end of last week and am now playing the waiting game. For those of you who have already been interviewing, how long did it take for clerks to begin calling/scheduling? I applied to 2, 3, and 7 (and realize that 90% of the positions are probably already filled . . .).

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Re: Timing

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:28 pm

I know the feeling bro. I'm top 4% at MVPB, LR Ed Board, published, moot court award winner, legal writing teaching assistant, have almost 100 applications out to COA and select D.Cts, haven't heard a thing for a month. Brutal.

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Re: Timing

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I know the feeling bro. I'm top 4% at MVPB, LR Ed Board, published, moot court award winner, legal writing teaching assistant, have almost 100 applications out to COA and select D.Cts, haven't heard a thing for a month. Brutal.


This is surprising. I would expect you to do reasonably well, at the very least locally.

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Re: Timing

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I know the feeling bro. I'm top 4% at MVPB, LR Ed Board, published, moot court award winner, legal writing teaching assistant, have almost 100 applications out to COA and select D.Cts, haven't heard a thing for a month. Brutal.


Try not to be too discouraged. You should be very competitive for district court judges, the grand majority of which haven't started interviewing yet. You certainly stand a chance for COA, too, and plenty of those judges have yet to move.

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Re: Timing

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I know the feeling bro. I'm top 4% at MVPB, LR Ed Board, published, moot court award winner, legal writing teaching assistant, have almost 100 applications out to COA and select D.Cts, haven't heard a thing for a month. Brutal.


Try not to be too discouraged. You should be very competitive for district court judges, the grand majority of which haven't started interviewing yet. You certainly stand a chance for COA, too, and plenty of those judges have yet to move.

Thanks both. Trying not to freak out too badly, I've got high hopes for D.Ct apps later in the year. But man, I went for the heart of flyover COA, really stretched my range of applications as I watched 9th, 2nd, and now increasingly 4th and 5th fill up - didn't expect to be striking out completely like this. I even had alum/former clerks forwarding applications on my behalf. Only thing I didn't have was a prof or faculty adviser making calls/greasing the wheels on my behalf, but I thought with my credentials I might be able to overcome that. Guess not.

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Re: Timing

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I know the feeling bro. I'm top 4% at MVPB, LR Ed Board, published, moot court award winner, legal writing teaching assistant, have almost 100 applications out to COA and select D.Cts, haven't heard a thing for a month. Brutal.


Try not to be too discouraged. You should be very competitive for district court judges, the grand majority of which haven't started interviewing yet. You certainly stand a chance for COA, too, and plenty of those judges have yet to move.

Thanks both. Trying not to freak out too badly, I've got high hopes for D.Ct apps later in the year. But man, I went for the heart of flyover COA, really stretched my range of applications as I watched 9th, 2nd, and now increasingly 4th and 5th fill up - didn't expect to be striking out completely like this. Only thing I don't have is a professor or faculty adviser making calls/greasing the wheels on my behalf, but I thought with my credentials I might be able to overcome that. Guess not.



OP here (top 8% no LR at DNCG). I'm really surprised by your situation as well. I am beyond frustrated already just because it took my school OVER A MONTH to process my faculty letters of recommendation. Everything is gone before I even had a shot, but I guess it's increasingly seeming like I never really had a shot anyways.

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Re: Timing

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I know the feeling bro. I'm top 4% at MVPB, LR Ed Board, published, moot court award winner, legal writing teaching assistant, have almost 100 applications out to COA and select D.Cts, haven't heard a thing for a month. Brutal.


Try not to be too discouraged. You should be very competitive for district court judges, the grand majority of which haven't started interviewing yet. You certainly stand a chance for COA, too, and plenty of those judges have yet to move.

Thanks both. Trying not to freak out too badly, I've got high hopes for D.Ct apps later in the year. But man, I went for the heart of flyover COA, really stretched my range of applications as I watched 9th, 2nd, and now increasingly 4th and 5th fill up - didn't expect to be striking out completely like this. Only thing I don't have is a professor or faculty adviser making calls/greasing the wheels on my behalf, but I thought with my credentials I might be able to overcome that. Guess not.



OP here (top 8% no LR at DNCG). I'm really surprised by your situation as well. I am beyond frustrated already just because it took my school OVER A MONTH to process my faculty letters of recommendation. Everything is gone before I even had a shot, but I guess it's increasingly seeming like I never really had a shot anyways.

Whining bro from above...seems like a lot of career offices got caught with their pants down by the D.C. Circuit announcement and never recovered. Shocker, right? I was on the ball though, got my stuff out early, but without a plugged in faculty member hooking me up, I'm twisting in the wind. C'est la vie.

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Re: Timing

Postby Tangerine Gleam » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Only thing I didn't have was a prof or faculty adviser making calls/greasing the wheels on my behalf, but I thought with my credentials I might be able to overcome that. Guess not.


I hate to say it, but even for those at the very top, recommender calls seem incredibly important. When my classmates and I went through the process last year, I was basically shocked to see how hard it was to get an interview without phone calls or emails from professors. Fortunately, there are still judges out there who truly sift through all of the applications and pick the meritorious candidates, but many judges won't do this, simply because they can fill up their spots by looking only at those students who go the extra mile and have a professor (or someone else) reach out.

I am still a law student, so take all of that with a grain of salt, but that's my impression of how things work in a lot of judges' chambers these days. If you can get someone to call or email for you, I would really encourage you to do so.

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Re: Timing

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:00 pm

Tangerine Gleam wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Only thing I didn't have was a prof or faculty adviser making calls/greasing the wheels on my behalf, but I thought with my credentials I might be able to overcome that. Guess not.


I hate to say it, but even for those at the very top, recommender calls seem incredibly important. When my classmates and I went through the process last year, I was basically shocked to see how hard it was to get an interview without phone calls or emails from professors. Fortunately, there are still judges out there who truly sift through all of the applications and pick the meritorious candidates, but many judges won't do this, simply because they can fill up their spots by looking only at those students who go the extra mile and have a professor (or someone else) reach out.

I am still a law student, so take all of that with a grain of salt, but that's my impression of how things work in a lot of judges' chambers these days. If you can get someone to call or email for you, I would really encourage you to do so.

OP here. HOW do you do that. I have one professor who insinuated that he might call two or three judges he knows, but he did not directly say so. It's not like I can just walk up to him and be like, "yo, bro, when was the last time you pulled out your HLS yearbook? time to make some calls."

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Re: Timing

Postby Tangerine Gleam » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I was on the ball though, got my stuff out early, but without a plugged in faculty member hooking me up, I'm twisting in the wind. C'est la vie.


I think this is a common misconception. While it certainly helps to have a well-connected professor get you an interview with a judge he or she knows, I think this is not very common at non-HYS schools.

The professor doesn't need to be connected. They just have to be willing to call (or email). Of the people I know who got clerkship interviews after professor phone calls, most of the professors did not know the judges at all. They were just willing to call and quickly say something about the applicant.

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Re: Timing

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:02 pm

Tangerine Gleam wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Only thing I didn't have was a prof or faculty adviser making calls/greasing the wheels on my behalf, but I thought with my credentials I might be able to overcome that. Guess not.


I hate to say it, but even for those at the very top, recommender calls seem incredibly important. When my classmates and I went through the process last year, I was basically shocked to see how hard it was to get an interview without phone calls or emails from professors. Fortunately, there are still judges out there who truly sift through all of the applications and pick the meritorious candidates, but many judges won't do this, simply because they can fill up their spots by looking only at those students who go the extra mile and have a professor (or someone else) reach out.

I am still a law student, so take all of that with a grain of salt, but that's my impression of how things work in a lot of judges' chambers these days. If you can get someone to call or email for you, I would really encourage you to do so.

That's certainly been my experience, but phrasing it as "going the extra mile" is inaccurate. You just need to be lucky enough to have taken classes from a prof who's a) willing to cold call chambers or b) personally plugged in with judges where you're applying. If you don't have that, seems to be 100% luck of the draw. Or more like winning the lottery.

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Re: Timing

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:03 pm

.

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Re: Timing

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tangerine Gleam wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Only thing I didn't have was a prof or faculty adviser making calls/greasing the wheels on my behalf, but I thought with my credentials I might be able to overcome that. Guess not.


I hate to say it, but even for those at the very top, recommender calls seem incredibly important. When my classmates and I went through the process last year, I was basically shocked to see how hard it was to get an interview without phone calls or emails from professors. Fortunately, there are still judges out there who truly sift through all of the applications and pick the meritorious candidates, but many judges won't do this, simply because they can fill up their spots by looking only at those students who go the extra mile and have a professor (or someone else) reach out.

I am still a law student, so take all of that with a grain of salt, but that's my impression of how things work in a lot of judges' chambers these days. If you can get someone to call or email for you, I would really encourage you to do so.

That's certainly been my experience, but phrasing it as "going the extra mile" is inaccurate. You just need to be lucky enough to have taken classes from a prof who's a) willing to cold call chambers or b) personally plugged in with judges where you're applying. If you don't have that, seems to be 100% luck of the draw. Or more like winning the lottery.


Agreed. This is total BS. I'm at GULC - the DC Circuit is across the street and Career Services STILL got blindsided by the announcement. No wonder we have a 66% employment rate upon graduation.

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Re: Timing

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:12 pm

For what it's worth, my grades (5% at CCN) are pretty average for what we're talking about here, and I'm going to a COA without letters or calls or anything. Just got picked out of the pile. It does happen sometimes.

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Re: Timing

Postby Tangerine Gleam » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tangerine Gleam wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Only thing I didn't have was a prof or faculty adviser making calls/greasing the wheels on my behalf, but I thought with my credentials I might be able to overcome that. Guess not.


I hate to say it, but even for those at the very top, recommender calls seem incredibly important. When my classmates and I went through the process last year, I was basically shocked to see how hard it was to get an interview without phone calls or emails from professors. Fortunately, there are still judges out there who truly sift through all of the applications and pick the meritorious candidates, but many judges won't do this, simply because they can fill up their spots by looking only at those students who go the extra mile and have a professor (or someone else) reach out.

I am still a law student, so take all of that with a grain of salt, but that's my impression of how things work in a lot of judges' chambers these days. If you can get someone to call or email for you, I would really encourage you to do so.

OP here. HOW do you do that. I have one professor who insinuated that he might call two or three judges he knows, but he did not directly say so. It's not like I can just walk up to him and be like, "yo, bro, when was the last time you pulled out your HLS yearbook? time to make some calls."


You just have to ask. But you need to be polite, and non-presumptuous, and deferential, and all of that. I would suggest sending an email, or dropping by office hours, and saying something like "I wanted to give you an update on my clerkship applications. I sent out X applications to judges all over the country, but so far, I haven't heard anything. I have heard that a phone call or email from a recommender can help. Would you be comfortable reaching out to any judges on my behalf?" And then, if they say they don't know any judges, you can explain that they don't need to know the judge personally, etc.

Some recommenders simply won't do it, and that's that. But if they might be willing, you should find out.

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Re: Timing

Postby Tangerine Gleam » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:That's certainly been my experience, but phrasing it as "going the extra mile" is inaccurate. You just need to be lucky enough to have taken classes from a prof who's a) willing to cold call chambers or b) personally plugged in with judges where you're applying. If you don't have that, seems to be 100% luck of the draw. Or more like winning the lottery.


Fair enough re: my "extra mile" characterization. If the professor is not willing to make a call, then there's nothing you can do. Fair point.

However, I disagree that the professor needs to be personally plugged in with the judges he or she is calling. It absolutely helps, but it isn't the only way. Sure, there are many judges who will only listen to professors they know, but there are also judges who just need an excuse to pull app from the pile, regardless of which professor calls about it.

My main point in all of this is that it is unwise for an applicant to forego professor phone calls just because the professors aren't well-connected. If the professors aren't willing to call, then that's one thing. But if they are willing, then it's absolutely worth a shot.

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Re: Timing

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:19 pm

How many judges do people generally ask professors to call for them? Obviously when you're applying to 100+ you can't get a call to each one.

Identify 5-10 judges you'd really, really like to clerk for and try to get two of your three recommenders to call each one? Or how does it usually work?

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Re: Timing

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:How many judges do people generally ask professors to call for them? Obviously when you're applying to 100+ you can't get a call to each one.

Identify 5-10 judges you'd really, really like to clerk for and try to get two of your three recommenders to call each one? Or how does it usually work?

MVPB strikeout from above. I've asked 10+ former and current clerks their advice on this, and an added variable you have to consider is that judges often won't take or will be annoyed by unsolicited cold calls when they're not actively considering the stack prior to conducting interviews (you're good, obviously, if they're rolling). That's a very hard thing to time, and if you get it wrong and you're only asking recommenders to call 5-10 judges (more than that and you've got a crazy helpful recommender), you're out of luck. Tangerine Gleam's advice is certainly useful, but it's not nearly as easy as s/he suggests.

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Re: Timing

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:30 pm

That makes sense. And, of course, it's really tough to time that because the judges are so opaque about what they're actually doing. I've been thinking that maybe some judges opened interviews but are just letting apps come in for a while before doing anything with the stack.

I really just sent applications out to some judges (HYS LR top 25-33) so I'm sure I'm much farther behind than you, but I don't think my chances were quite on your level's anyway. My relatively uninformed plan was to wait about a week and a half after I know the chambers got my app and then ask profs to make a call.

Not sure though...I'm just hoping that volume can help me out.

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Re: Timing

Postby Tangerine Gleam » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:31 pm

Above anon (two posts above) makes a very good point. I definitely do not mean to insinuate that any part of this process, especially coordinating phone calls, is easy.

Picking the small group of judges your professor(s) will call, and deciding when those calls should be placed, is very tough. You really need to be realistic with yourself about where you might have a decent shot, and you need to find out as much as you can about when those judges might start looking at applicants. If it's a judge who is openly accepting applications according to his/her OSCAR page, then requesting a call at that time seems reasonable. If it's, say, a district court judge who hired on-plan last year, now would likely be too early for a call unless you had good information that they had broken from prior practice and were already looking at applicants.

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Re: Timing

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:That makes sense. And, of course, it's really tough to time that because the judges are so opaque about what they're actually doing. I've been thinking that maybe some judges opened interviews but are just letting apps come in for a while before doing anything with the stack.

I really just sent applications out to some judges (HYS LR top 25-33) so I'm sure I'm much farther behind than you, but I don't think my chances were quite on your level's anyway. My relatively uninformed plan was to wait about a week and a half after I know the chambers got my app and then ask profs to make a call.

Not sure though...I'm just hoping that volume can help me out.

Same here brother. And you're right about some judges waiting - I've had a couple judicial assistants tell me they were waiting for their judge to receive a "critical mass" of apps before making any interviewing decisions, so it's not over re: COAs, but I hear about more judges filling up every day. Crossing my fingers for us both.

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Re: Timing

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:42 pm

Yeah man. I can't imagine a scenario in which you don't get something really good. Are you willing to do a dist. ct. first and then reapply to the feeders as a 3L? Hard for me to see you not getting a bunch of interviews in that case on the off chance you somehow don't get what you want this go round

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Re: Timing

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Yeah man. I can't imagine a scenario in which you don't get something really good. Are you willing to do a dist. ct. first and then reapply to the feeders as a 3L? Hard for me to see you not getting a bunch of interviews in that case on the off chance you somehow don't get what you want this go round

That's my plan, although if I got a d.ct this time around (barring some phenomenal 3L grades) I think feeders would be a longshot; I'd be happy with just about any COA.

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Re: Timing

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:36 pm

Thoughts on how big of an applicant pool we are talking right now for COA positions?

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Re: Timing

Postby Citizen Genet » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Thoughts on how big of an applicant pool we are talking right now for COA positions?


Bad economy and competing against the largest two-years of graduates in the history of law school. Big.




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