State Supreme Court Clerk- taking q's

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State Supreme Court Clerk- taking q's

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:18 am

Shoot.

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Re: State Supreme Court Clerk- taking q's

Postby tycoga8118 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:22 am

your stats?

How is the post-clerk employment search?

How was the work overall and do you feel like it prepared you well for whatever it is that you are doing afterwards?

What are you going to be doing afterwards?

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Re: State Supreme Court Clerk- taking q's

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:26 am

tycoga8118 wrote:your stats?

How is the post-clerk employment search?

How was the work overall and do you feel like it prepared you well for whatever it is that you are doing afterwards?

What are you going to be doing afterwards?


Top 1/3 @ T6

Haven't started the post-clerk search yet. Been receiving letters from firms. Would like to go biglaw.

Work has been great, you tend to see a broad range of issues both civil and criminal. Briefs range from extremely poor (local or solo practitioners) to extremely well-done. It's fun thinking about the ripple effects of an opinion and you know what the judge writes is going to be heavily scrutinized.

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Re: State Supreme Court Clerk- taking q's

Postby ndirish2010 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:03 pm

Do you know anyone who has done a SSC clerkship after a federal district clerkship?

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Re: State Supreme Court Clerk- taking q's

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:30 pm

One of the state supreme courts I'm interested in applying to has already started taking applications. How bad is it that I won't be getting my application in until next week? I waited until getting my grades back before calling chambers and finding out when applications would be accepted.

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Re: State Supreme Court Clerk- taking q's

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:16 am

ndirish2010 wrote:Do you know anyone who has done a SSC clerkship after a federal district clerkship?


No, although I've heard of people doing the reverse.

Anonymous User wrote:One of the state supreme courts I'm interested in applying to has already started taking applications. How bad is it that I won't be getting my application in until next week? I waited until getting my grades back before calling chambers and finding out when applications would be accepted.


No idea. My judge tends to wait until he has a large volume of applications.

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Re: State Supreme Court Clerk- taking q's

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:51 am

ndirish2010 wrote:Do you know anyone who has done a SSC clerkship after a federal district clerkship?

I'm pretty sure I know of a SSC clerk and a state COA clerk who had each done a federal district court clerkship before the state clerkship. That said, I think the state COA clerk was a career clerk, which is a little different. My impression was that the SSC person had no previous ties to the market and this was a way to get an in (it's a fairly insular market). I'm sorry I can't dredge up more specifics for you (just that I have seen it happen).

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Re: State Supreme Court Clerk- taking q's

Postby ndirish2010 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:01 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:Do you know anyone who has done a SSC clerkship after a federal district clerkship?

I'm pretty sure I know of a SSC clerk and a state COA clerk who had each done a federal district court clerkship before the state clerkship. That said, I think the state COA clerk was a career clerk, which is a little different. My impression was that the SSC person had no previous ties to the market and this was a way to get an in (it's a fairly insular market). I'm sorry I can't dredge up more specifics for you (just that I have seen it happen).


Yeah, that's what I was thinking, as a way to get into a fairly insular market where I have some ties but I didn't do well there at OCI.

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Re: State Supreme Court Clerk- taking q's

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:45 pm

Thanks for taking questions.

I am currently a 2L at Columbia/NYU. I would estimate top 20%. Secondary journal. V10 firm for the summer. Lived in NYC my whole life.

I am thinking of applying to NY Court of Appeals as an alum. What are my chances, and do you have any advice? I rather clerk for the Court of Appeals than a Federal District Court -- mostly because of that discretionary review :).

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Re: State Supreme Court Clerk- taking q's

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:41 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:Do you know anyone who has done a SSC clerkship after a federal district clerkship?

I'm pretty sure I know of a SSC clerk and a state COA clerk who had each done a federal district court clerkship before the state clerkship. That said, I think the state COA clerk was a career clerk, which is a little different. My impression was that the SSC person had no previous ties to the market and this was a way to get an in (it's a fairly insular market). I'm sorry I can't dredge up more specifics for you (just that I have seen it happen).


Yeah, that's what I was thinking, as a way to get into a fairly insular market where I have some ties but I didn't do well there at OCI.

This will doubtless vary by state, but my experience was that state COA judges were generally more interested in demonstrated ability than the SSC justices, who could be quirky and uber-selective - the COA has a heavier workload and more of the judges just wanted to know you could do the work than cared as much about pedigree (except for the one who only hired from Ivies...). So a former fed district court would look great to a COA judge. COA is less prestigious, but in my state, it was a much bigger court, with a lot of former local firm partners as judges, so could be helpful in making connections, and I know a lot of people who were going from their clerkships to firms (not ones they had offers from already). If you have good qualifications already - which you doubtless do, what with the fed clerkship and all - and want an "in" to an insular market, and you run into issues with the SSC, the state COA might be worth a look. (Again, depending on the state. I know in some states the pay for COA - or SC, for that matter - is really really low and the connections may not be worth it.)

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Re: State Supreme Court Clerk- taking q's

Postby ndirish2010 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:03 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:Do you know anyone who has done a SSC clerkship after a federal district clerkship?

I'm pretty sure I know of a SSC clerk and a state COA clerk who had each done a federal district court clerkship before the state clerkship. That said, I think the state COA clerk was a career clerk, which is a little different. My impression was that the SSC person had no previous ties to the market and this was a way to get an in (it's a fairly insular market). I'm sorry I can't dredge up more specifics for you (just that I have seen it happen).


Yeah, that's what I was thinking, as a way to get into a fairly insular market where I have some ties but I didn't do well there at OCI.

This will doubtless vary by state, but my experience was that state COA judges were generally more interested in demonstrated ability than the SSC justices, who could be quirky and uber-selective - the COA has a heavier workload and more of the judges just wanted to know you could do the work than cared as much about pedigree (except for the one who only hired from Ivies...). So a former fed district court would look great to a COA judge. COA is less prestigious, but in my state, it was a much bigger court, with a lot of former local firm partners as judges, so could be helpful in making connections, and I know a lot of people who were going from their clerkships to firms (not ones they had offers from already). If you have good qualifications already - which you doubtless do, what with the fed clerkship and all - and want an "in" to an insular market, and you run into issues with the SSC, the state COA might be worth a look. (Again, depending on the state. I know in some states the pay for COA - or SC, for that matter - is really really low and the connections may not be worth it.)


This makes sense. I actually interned for a CoA judge in one of the states I'm interested in as a 1L (hence "weak ties") and I have some connections to the Supreme Court of that state. The CoA hired mostly career clerks, but they actually made a pretty decent salary (60K ish starting in tertiary market), but the SSC has term clerks, so I'd be interested in going back there.

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Re: State Supreme Court Clerk- taking q's

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Thanks for taking questions.

I am currently a 2L at Columbia/NYU. I would estimate top 20%. Secondary journal. V10 firm for the summer. Lived in NYC my whole life.

I am thinking of applying to NY Court of Appeals as an alum. What are my chances, and do you have any advice? I rather clerk for the Court of Appeals than a Federal District Court -- mostly because of that discretionary review :).


Bumpity bump bump.

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Re: State Supreme Court Clerk- taking q's

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:10 am

Anonymous User wrote:Thanks for taking questions.

I am currently a 2L at Columbia/NYU. I would estimate top 20%. Secondary journal. V10 firm for the summer. Lived in NYC my whole life.

I am thinking of applying to NY Court of Appeals as an alum. What are my chances, and do you have any advice? I rather clerk for the Court of Appeals than a Federal District Court -- mostly because of that discretionary review :).


Well, you have the grades/other credentials to meet the cutoff. But trying to target one specific court is tough. There are only seven judges and not all of them might be hiring clerks at the same time, at most you have seven spots to choose from. There is also the central research staff but I believe they do mostly procedural work.

It's a crapshoot, I applied to 70 clerkships and got one interview for my current job.

On being an appellate clerk in a state court generally- it's a load of fun. You have fewer cases and more time to focus on each case. We do everything, major constitutional issues that could go up to the Supreme Court, nine-figure commercial litigation, criminal law, administrative appeals, minor procedural stuff, and just strange cases nobody knows what to do with. You get to see a variety of types of advocates. There might be a name partner of a biglaw firm arguing in one case and some solo worker's compensation practitioner in the next.

The work itself is mostly memos. You are called on to become an expert on very narrow issues of law quickly. Working with the judge to draft opinions (or drafting, if your judge lets clerks draft) is also illuminating. If you enjoyed law school, it's one of the very few junior lawyer jobs where you are exercising the skills they taught you in law school. Watching oral arguments after becoming truly an expert on the case is also a different experience than the average SCOTUS junkie might get. You're very finely attuned to the bullshit coming from both the bench and the advocates when you know the record inside and out.

The drawback is that you won't get as much relevant experience as a federal district clerk, especially a clerk in the SDNY or EDNY and for biglaw. First, state courts very rarely hear the sexy biglaw litigation cases- securities, antitrust, and IP law. They are much less likely to actually come all the way up the chain- by the time to appeal to state supreme court the parties have usually had enough. Second, you do very little motion practice and no discovery. Since that's where the money is in litigation, you go onto the job market with a much narrower set of skills.

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Re: State Supreme Court Clerk- taking q's

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:26 pm

Silly question but I feel that it needs to be asked. Do you feel that SSC clerkship has been worth it in terms of career boost? I know some people espouse an "Art. III or bust" attitude towards clerkships, do you think that's warranted?

Also did you have an SA/permanent offer prior to clerking? Did your firm support your decision to SSC clerk?

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Re: State Supreme Court Clerk- taking q's

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:11 am

Anonymous User wrote:Silly question but I feel that it needs to be asked. Do you feel that SSC clerkship has been worth it in terms of career boost? I know some people espouse an "Art. III or bust" attitude towards clerkships, do you think that's warranted?

Also did you have an SA/permanent offer prior to clerking? Did your firm support your decision to SSC clerk?


I don't have an offer waiting in the wings, so I can't answer the second part.

In terms of whether it is worth it as a career boost, I assume you're asking in the short-term. Are biglawyers impressed when they hear where I am clerking? Yes. Do I get letters? Yes. But of course a lot of people were impressed with my T6 school too, and if they don't have any open positions or they are more impressed with people from more prestigious backgrounds for a limited number of positions, then all the eyebrow raises in the world won't do me much good.

Most former clerks on my court work in biglaw, but they also had the grades/school to get biglaw in the first place and came from biglaw firms. So it passes that smell test- it's not a net negative. But for that reason it's hard to answer your question because I don't know whether the clerkship itself is sufficient to get a biglaw job yet, we'll have to see.

AIII or bust is definitely a bit of TLS common wisdom that is taken to an extreme. If you have the credentials to clerk on the court, you have the credentials to get biglaw. If you want to clerk then clerk. A district court clerkship, however, is a whole different animal than a SSC clerkship both in the substance of the work and the lifestyle/demands.

If you want to use a clerkship to trade up firms, I really can't help you there either.

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Re: State Supreme Court Clerk- taking q's

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:44 pm

Classes?
Do state supreme court judges look for the same sort of classes that federal judges do?
Ties? Do they care about ties or do you apply broadly?
If you want to be in NYC afterwards, can you clerk in other states, or the prestige/skills do not transfer at all.

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Re: State Supreme Court Clerk- taking q's

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Classes?
Do state supreme court judges look for the same sort of classes that federal judges do?
Ties? Do they care about ties or do you apply broadly?
If you want to be in NYC afterwards, can you clerk in other states, or the prestige/skills do not transfer at all.


I applied after my second year and didn't really take "appellate clerkship classes" except for evidence and fed courts. My judge did not seem to care. Admin would have been extremely helpful as we get a lot of regulatory determinations, rulemaking, and arbitration. I occasionally see fed courts issues. Evidence is vital- about 30% of the docket is criminal stuff and it comes up a lot in civil practice. Crim Pro, Advanced Con Law, Labor Law would have been helpful. But you get some of everything. I've seen animal law cases.

I will say that the court seems to care about ties for all but the top 10 schools. The clerks who did not attend elite schools came from local schools or transferred to better ranked schools from local schools, and almost all had work experience at local biglaw or in public interest offices.

NYC- no clue. Will clerking on the Kansas Supreme Court get you a job at STB? Probably not, but then again, clerking for the D. Ct of Kansas probably won't either. I've seen NJ SC clerks at big firms. Mass, Del, Illinois, Texas, probably all travel to NYC.

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Re: State Supreme Court Clerk- taking q's

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:43 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: Will clerking on the Kansas Supreme Court get you a job at STB? Probably not, but then again, clerking for the D. Ct of Kansas probably won't either. I've seen NJ SC clerks at big firms. Mass, Del, Illinois, Texas, probably all travel to NYC.


Really? I was under the impression that a federal clerkship is a federal clerkship is a federal clerkship. Thus, while some clerkships are obviously better than others, any federal clerkship is a great credential nationwide. I was inferring from this that a SDNY clerkship will probably make me more competitive than a District of Idaho clerkship, but both would make me competitive generally.

Or am I just splitting hairs or not really making sense. I understand there is more to it because those who have the clerkships are usually those with better credentials in the first place, but (aside from the great experience) I'm really trying to pinpoint how different clerkships affect post-clerkship employment in both geography as well as specific firm in order to decide which clerkships are good to apply to based on my career goals.

I'm a 2l about to go through the process.

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Re: State Supreme Court Clerk- taking q's

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:21 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: Will clerking on the Kansas Supreme Court get you a job at STB? Probably not, but then again, clerking for the D. Ct of Kansas probably won't either. I've seen NJ SC clerks at big firms. Mass, Del, Illinois, Texas, probably all travel to NYC.


Really? I was under the impression that a federal clerkship is a federal clerkship is a federal clerkship. Thus, while some clerkships are obviously better than others, any federal clerkship is a great credential nationwide. I was inferring from this that a SDNY clerkship will probably make me more competitive than a District of Idaho clerkship, but both would make me competitive generally.

Or am I just splitting hairs or not really making sense. I understand there is more to it because those who have the clerkships are usually those with better credentials in the first place, but (aside from the great experience) I'm really trying to pinpoint how different clerkships affect post-clerkship employment in both geography as well as specific firm in order to decide which clerkships are good to apply to based on my career goals.

I'm a 2l about to go through the process.

I think that yes, a federal clerkship is always a good credential. However, one of the valuable things about any clerkship is the connections it brings, and to some extent, those connections are regional (particularly for a state clerkship). That's masked in part by the fact that the most competitive/prestigious clerkships tend to be located in major markets where people want to be after clerking - so, for instance, I'd bet quite a few people who clerk in SDNY want to be in NYC after that anyway, or D DC clerks want to be in DC. Similarly, the most competitive judges probably have connections far and wide and may be able help their clerks move to more places than less prominent judges (though really, all federal judges are well connected). Obviously that's not universal and people certainly can certainly move around, but my sense is that some of the ability to do so will depend on what qualifications you already had before the clerkship. For instance, I'm in a "flyover" district, and while some of my judge's former clerks are in big DC firms, they went to national schools and, particularly, did federal COA clerkships in addition to clerking here. The others are working locally (I will be going to a job in a different, but neighboring/similar district).

This is anecdotal, so I offer it only as my own impression. If you have a particular firm/market you're targeting for post-clerkship, I think it makes sense to look at all the recent hires in that market and see where people have clerked. A clerkship is a great experience, but if you're looking for a clerkship to get you into a new (especially firm) job, especially if you don't already have connections to the market where you want to end up, I think it will be most helpful in its regional market. How regional that means may depend on the region/market.

(To return to the thread topic, I think this is even more the case for state clerkships - though again, not universal. And I'd be happy to hear otherwise.)

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Re: State Supreme Court Clerk- taking q's

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:19 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: Will clerking on the Kansas Supreme Court get you a job at STB? Probably not, but then again, clerking for the D. Ct of Kansas probably won't either. I've seen NJ SC clerks at big firms. Mass, Del, Illinois, Texas, probably all travel to NYC.


Really? I was under the impression that a federal clerkship is a federal clerkship is a federal clerkship. Thus, while some clerkships are obviously better than others, any federal clerkship is a great credential nationwide. I was inferring from this that a SDNY clerkship will probably make me more competitive than a District of Idaho clerkship, but both would make me competitive generally.

Or am I just splitting hairs or not really making sense. I understand there is more to it because those who have the clerkships are usually those with better credentials in the first place, but (aside from the great experience) I'm really trying to pinpoint how different clerkships affect post-clerkship employment in both geography as well as specific firm in order to decide which clerkships are good to apply to based on my career goals.

I'm a 2l about to go through the process.


I guess the question is- what do you want? Do you want assurance that your firm will leave an offer open for you while you clerk at a particular court? If so, they probably will, or you should ask them. Or do you want to know if a particular clerkship will give you the ability to trade up firms? I'm not sure if someone from, say, CCN bottom 1/3 who gets a D. Kansas clerkship but didn't have a biglaw offer would be able to use the clerkship to get a job with a New York firm after. If that's the case, then you should talk to the judicial clerkship office at your school.

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Re: State Supreme Court Clerk- taking q's

Postby Anonymous User » Thu May 30, 2013 12:13 am

Same OP here, bumping for app season questions.

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Re: State Supreme Court Clerk- taking q's

Postby ZyzzBrah » Thu May 30, 2013 9:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Same OP here, bumping for app season questions.


I will be going into an SSC after graduation (mid-atlantic area), any tips on how to get into big law after/when did you start looking for jobs after post-clerkship (i.e. do you try to talk and be friendly with lawyers, etc). Here's my stats if that helps (top 20%, LR, published, school in 30-40 range, midlaw, very respected in the area, summer job currently)


also, ever consider dist crt after? (sorry if you answered this, some posts in this thread are tldr)

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Re: State Supreme Court Clerk- taking q's

Postby Anonymous User » Fri May 31, 2013 9:42 am

ZyzzBrah wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Same OP here, bumping for app season questions.


I will be going into an SSC after graduation (mid-atlantic area), any tips on how to get into big law after/when did you start looking for jobs after post-clerkship (i.e. do you try to talk and be friendly with lawyers, etc). Here's my stats if that helps (top 20%, LR, published, school in 30-40 range, midlaw, very respected in the area, summer job currently)


also, ever consider dist crt after? (sorry if you answered this, some posts in this thread are tldr)


I have a two year clerkship so I'm not even close to starting to look yet. But here's what I know so far.

By far the best resource is going to be your judge. Mine came from practice and so is pretty plugged into most of the biglaw firms.

Next, you need to start developing a network of current clerks who may be leaving before you. Their firms obviously hire clerks, and they'll know when you are about to leave your clerkship, forward you opportunities. If you're doing a one-year stint then this might be difficult since you won't have much of an overlap with them. But I find alumni clerks like to come back occasionally especially if some of the judges have career clerks, so you can meet them that way.

Your law school classmates will also be a huge help. They'll reach out to you, tell you when their firm is looking, etc etc.

I don't do much "networking" with attorneys, since they inevitably want to talk about the job and I can't give them anything more than general, conclusory information. You should get a rundown from other clerks and from the judge about what you can and cannot say to people you meet randomly and in the interview setting.

And yes, I have thought about a federal district clerkship, both for the substantive knowledge of certain areas of law, and because of the motion practice and trial experience. But three years is pushing it, and I think I'll spend a few years in the private sector first.

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Re: State Supreme Court Clerk- taking q's

Postby ZyzzBrah » Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
I have a two year clerkship so I'm not even close to starting to look yet. But here's what I know so far.

By far the best resource is going to be your judge. Mine came from practice and so is pretty plugged into most of the biglaw firms.

Next, you need to start developing a network of current clerks who may be leaving before you. Their firms obviously hire clerks, and they'll know when you are about to leave your clerkship, forward you opportunities. If you're doing a one-year stint then this might be difficult since you won't have much of an overlap with them. But I find alumni clerks like to come back occasionally especially if some of the judges have career clerks, so you can meet them that way.

Your law school classmates will also be a huge help. They'll reach out to you, tell you when their firm is looking, etc etc.

I don't do much "networking" with attorneys, since they inevitably want to talk about the job and I can't give them anything more than general, conclusory information. You should get a rundown from other clerks and from the judge about what you can and cannot say to people you meet randomly and in the interview setting.

And yes, I have thought about a federal district clerkship, both for the substantive knowledge of certain areas of law, and because of the motion practice and trial experience. But three years is pushing it, and I think I'll spend a few years in the private sector first.



Thanks for the reply. I made an excel spreadsheet of former clerks and where they are etc, but its based only on what I could find on linkedin. Theres a few biglaw associates and a couple partners (I could only find about 5 former clerks through this method, and I know there are more since he has 2 per year) and Im going to a reunion for clerks in a few weeks so hopefully I'll met them and more.

Good luck in your clerkship brah.

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Re: State Supreme Court Clerk- taking q's

Postby Tom Joad » Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:29 pm

Can you give a hint at what kind of state you are at?

I am kind of assuming it is a certain state, but just curious.




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