Clerks Taking Questions

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:17 am

What do you think about the controversial topic/question above? Do all who read the comment take it to mean this is your definite stance or that you as a law student, took this stance as matter of argument?[/quote]

I will say: I am going into debtor-side bankruptcy. The article I published took a fairly harsh anti-debtor stance on a hot-button bankruptcy issue. I don't regret having the publication, even though I may eventually be called on to argue against my own position. (A client's money clears the mind, one might say.) But that's a little different than publishing on a hot-button "social issue" topic.

When I was an editor, we had two hot-button comments come through. I did a large amount of counselling with both people to make sure they wanted their names attached to controversial viewpoints. That said, those were on "unresolved" questions. You're basically arguing against Roe, and that might be a really tough sell for any judge. It's a tough call. If I was looking at your resume, I wouldn't throw it away because of the article. It could score you some points with some conservative judges and lose you some points with some liberal judges, but I think that, in the end, the bump you get from being published probably outweighs the negatives.[/quote]

If your paper is really an anti-Roe paper, I would question its novelty. There are 40 years of anti-Roe scholarship, and it's unlikely that a student note is hitting on anything really that novel.

That said, if you are that pro-life, then would you really be happy clerking for a judge who doesn't agree?[/quote]

I'm not that pro-life, I just took a stance for argument sake. If I allow it to be published, you then think everyone will think this is my personal stance, not that I was just researching the other side?
Thank you so much for your time....

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:18 am

I'm just trying to figure out what you could have POSSIBLY said about Roe that wasn't preempted 80-thousand-ways-from-Sunday.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:22 am

ToTransferOrNot wrote:I'm just trying to figure out what you could have POSSIBLY said about Roe that wasn't preempted 80-thousand-ways-from-Sunday.


its not roe.

to ALL- really appreciate all your time & help. So generous of you all. thank you.

Kalvano-You're on your way to a clerkship!! GOOD LUCK!! Keep us informed!

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:15 pm

G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:2L here, my comment has been selected for publication in my journal. At first I was thrilled but now I'm not sure I should have it published. It is on a very controversial topic & I chose the ultra conservative (ie not the side Judges would vote for) side. On top of that it is not at all my best writing.

Do I get it published? If I get it published will it forever loom over my head or will it just be understood that I took a side & argued it? Will I ever get a job with a judge thereafter?

Thanks!

I am not very well qualified to answer the longer-term aspects of this question. But on the "will the comment cause me to strike out with judges" part, I believe the answer is no. I do not understand why you think a very conservative position is one that no "Judges would vote for." There are lots of very conservative judges on the bench -- indeed, there are more of them than there are very liberal judges. But in the main ideology does not matter in clerkship hiring. Judges want to hire bright, engaging, interesting clerks. If your comment is well-written and well-researched, it will advance your cause, regardless of the position it takes. Yes, it might disqualify you with some judges, but it might also be a huge signaling advantage to others. To the extent judges are worried about your politics or legal reasoning, you can always be ready to argue the other side of the issue in an interview. Your resume might also be a vehicle to balance out your leanings, if you feel the need to do that.


Thank you, Mr/Ms Amazing!! You have saved many lives!

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kalvano
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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby kalvano » Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:39 pm

Just to be clear, on my publication, I had to put the authors because it was a co-authored piece, not a comment or casenote.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby bdubs » Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:28 pm

G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:2L here, my comment has been selected for publication in my journal. At first I was thrilled but now I'm not sure I should have it published. It is on a very controversial topic & I chose the ultra conservative (ie not the side Judges would vote for) side. On top of that it is not at all my best writing.

Do I get it published? If I get it published will it forever loom over my head or will it just be understood that I took a side & argued it? Will I ever get a job with a judge thereafter?

Thanks!

I am not very well qualified to answer the longer-term aspects of this question. But on the "will the comment cause me to strike out with judges" part, I believe the answer is no. I do not understand why you think a very conservative position is one that no "Judges would vote for." There are lots of very conservative judges on the bench -- indeed, there are more of them than there are very liberal judges. But in the main ideology does not matter in clerkship hiring. Judges want to hire bright, engaging, interesting clerks. If your comment is well-written and well-researched, it will advance your cause, regardless of the position it takes. Yes, it might disqualify you with some judges, but it might also be a huge signaling advantage to others. To the extent judges are worried about your politics or legal reasoning, you can always be ready to argue the other side of the issue in an interview. Your resume might also be a vehicle to balance out your leanings, if you feel the need to do that.


Along these lines, are there any note subjects that are particularly stand out when reviewing applications?

In the forward to Volokh's academic legal writing, Judge Kozinski talks about how Volokh's initial note topic was a complete turn off (granted it was Kozinski who was turned off and his tastes may be a bit unusual). Are there areas of law that are more likely to be of interest or relevance to a judge or his/her clerks? Is it better, or worse, to choose a controversial topic such as the above poster?

Judge Kozinski recently spoke at NU and told the 1L class that we should be preparing to write our notes already if we want them to be ready for clerkship applications. Any thoughts on that?

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:48 pm

kalvano wrote:Just to be clear, on my publication, I had to put the authors because it was a co-authored piece, not a comment or casenote.


THIS is perfectly fine. I have seen it equally both ways. My legal writing professor, director of department, published numerous times, always puts author/ her name (with or with out co-author). Without authors, if it is co-authored I have seen at the end of the cite in parenthesis (with R. Kalvano). But perfectly acceptable to put your name (author) first thing in the cite, yes even on your own resume.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:52 am

bdubs wrote:
G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:2L here, my comment has been selected for publication in my journal. At first I was thrilled but now I'm not sure I should have it published. It is on a very controversial topic & I chose the ultra conservative (ie not the side Judges would vote for) side. On top of that it is not at all my best writing.

Do I get it published? If I get it published will it forever loom over my head or will it just be understood that I took a side & argued it? Will I ever get a job with a judge thereafter?

Thanks!

I am not very well qualified to answer the longer-term aspects of this question. But on the "will the comment cause me to strike out with judges" part, I believe the answer is no. I do not understand why you think a very conservative position is one that no "Judges would vote for." There are lots of very conservative judges on the bench -- indeed, there are more of them than there are very liberal judges. But in the main ideology does not matter in clerkship hiring. Judges want to hire bright, engaging, interesting clerks. If your comment is well-written and well-researched, it will advance your cause, regardless of the position it takes. Yes, it might disqualify you with some judges, but it might also be a huge signaling advantage to others. To the extent judges are worried about your politics or legal reasoning, you can always be ready to argue the other side of the issue in an interview. Your resume might also be a vehicle to balance out your leanings, if you feel the need to do that.


Along these lines, are there any note subjects that are particularly stand out when reviewing applications?

In the forward to Volokh's academic legal writing, Judge Kozinski talks about how Volokh's initial note topic was a complete turn off (granted it was Kozinski who was turned off and his tastes may be a bit unusual). Are there areas of law that are more likely to be of interest or relevance to a judge or his/her clerks? Is it better, or worse, to choose a controversial topic such as the above poster?

Judge Kozinski recently spoke at NU and told the 1L class that we should be preparing to write our notes already if we want them to be ready for clerkship applications. Any thoughts on that?

Volokh's initial note was titled "The Alienability and Devisability of Possibilities of Reverter and Rights of Entry." I think almost everyone would find this terrible to read.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Citizen Genet » Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:41 am

bdubs wrote:Judge Kozinski recently spoke at NU and told the 1L class that we should be preparing to write our notes already if we want them to be ready for clerkship applications. Any thoughts on that?



As someone who is going through the application process right now, I emphatically endorse Judge Kozinksi's advice. My LR didn't have final dates until February; I worked on it and got it in on time, but upon reviewing it, was dramatically disappointed with my turned-in product. I am now revising, while trying to prepare for finals, and still get applications out on time. To REALLY be able to review your note and correct all of the tiny errors that are bound to come up, you will need significant time. You're usually reviewing over 200 footnotes, and italicized and un-italicized commas really start to blur together after awhile.

If you were going for a feeder, like Kozinski, you'd be fried in this situation. Even non-feeders who are accepting early, you're at a disadvantage against. I recommend working on your note during the summer after 1L - save yourself time during the semester and start getting it ready so it will be completely finished by January.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby kalvano » Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:49 am

Just to clarify something, if a judge is only accepting applications from certain dates, say May 1-July 10, that means that one needs to send a paper or online application in, and by online, it means not through OSCAR but an emailed PDF application. Is that correct?

I emailed the clerkship person at my OCS, but all she would talk about is the hiring plan.


Also, if my publication is not a casenote or comment, but more of a survey paper that involved creative and non-traditional legal research, is that helpful or hurtful? Any boost if a professor used it as the basis for a presentation at the school and is willing to talk with a judge about it?

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:18 pm

I'm graduating this May and starting a clerkship in December. I don't have a biglaw offer and am very happy to have the clerkship.

However, I'm wondering what kind of work I can do for the 3-4 months between the bar exam and December. What do judges usually allow? What do clerks do before starting their clerkship?

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm graduating this May and starting a clerkship in December. I don't have a biglaw offer and am very happy to have the clerkship.

However, I'm wondering what kind of work I can do for the 3-4 months between the bar exam and December. What do judges usually allow? What do clerks do before starting their clerkship?


Same situation here. My school offered to help me get an internship or create a fellowship (basically, paid to research and write a paper). Since I don't want to do academia, I'm just going to take the extra time and travel. Sure, there's an opportunity cost, but you're not going to get paid a ton of money during that period (I don't know of any firm willing to take on an associate for three months.) And when else will you have that kind of leisure time?

*Note: I assume you have a federal clerkship, so you'll have a firm job afterwards even if you don't now. If you don't, you may want to look into doing some work for a firm, even if you don't get paid much. Most judges have no problem with what you do before the clerkship.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm graduating this May and starting a clerkship in December. I don't have a biglaw offer and am very happy to have the clerkship.

However, I'm wondering what kind of work I can do for the 3-4 months between the bar exam and December. What do judges usually allow? What do clerks do before starting their clerkship?


Same situation here. My school offered to help me get an internship or create a fellowship (basically, paid to research and write a paper). Since I don't want to do academia, I'm just going to take the extra time and travel. Sure, there's an opportunity cost, but you're not going to get paid a ton of money during that period (I don't know of any firm willing to take on an associate for three months.) And when else will you have that kind of leisure time?

*Note: I assume you have a federal clerkship, so you'll have a firm job afterwards even if you don't now. If you don't, you may want to look into doing some work for a firm, even if you don't get paid much. Most judges have no problem with what you do before the clerkship.


It's a state supreme court clerkship in a large state (most large firms litigate in front of them) so I am unsure whether the exit options are as good as federal district clerks. I would just like something where I can eat and pay rent for 4 months. Maybe temp doc review, though areyouinsane's posts this summer kind of convinced me those jobs are generally unavailable and unreliable now.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:59 am

Anonymous User wrote:It's a state supreme court clerkship in a large state (most large firms litigate in front of them) so I am unsure whether the exit options are as good as federal district clerks. I would just like something where I can eat and pay rent for 4 months. Maybe temp doc review, though areyouinsane's posts this summer kind of convinced me those jobs are generally unavailable and unreliable now.


Gotcha. Have you tried talking to your professors / career services office / clerkship office? When I asked for advice on what to do with my time off, several of my advisers offered to help obtain or create some sort of academic fellowship, with a stipend. I'd also reach out to some firms in your clerkship state to see if they want help at low or even no pay, since it would reduce the stress of trying to find a job while clerking.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:09 am

True or False: Most COA judges are hostile to applicants who express a strong desire for legal academia. (Excluding feeder judges and other super-competitive COA judges. I'm really more curious about the least competitive (relatively speaking) COA judges and circuits.)

Same question for district court judges.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:45 am

Anonymous User wrote:True or False: Most COA judges are hostile to applicants who express a strong desire for legal academia. (Excluding feeder judges and other super-competitive COA judges. I'm really more curious about the least competitive (relatively speaking) COA judges and circuits.)

Same question for district court judges.


Each judge is like their own miniature firm. You really can't make a general categorization like this.

A few thoughts:
-Judges don't seem to like being thought of as an instrument - i.e., they want you to want to clerk for them, not just check a box.
-Judges will probably vary on this based on their background - don't be surprised is former biglaw litigation partners have more disdain for academia
-Talk to former clerks of specific judges
-By the time you are in an interview, which is probably the earliest time you should even be thinking about broadcasting this sort of desire (unless you are applying to Judge Williams on DC Cir.), you should already have enough information to know whether or not it would be a bad idea to discuss your burning desire for academia.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby lynch » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:18 am

G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:if your note was selected to be published and will be published well after you apply, what do you write in your resume-cite it as best you can, name, title, journal.. then in parenthesis (selected for future publication) ?


When I did my applications and had an outstanding publication, I put:

Article Title, -- Other J. Abb. -- (publication forthcoming [year]) (available on SSRN at [url])

Comment, Article Title, -- J. Abb. -- (publication forthcoming [year])

I didn't put the comment on SSRN because meh. The "real article," though, got thrown up there.

I don't think you really need to have a (discussing) parenthetical, because you're probably using it as your writing sample (unless you have two publications and the title doesn't make the discussion obvious). Similarly, why in god's name would you include the author's name (i.e., yourself) on your own resume??



That is very awesome question, It's like your telling them that it's not your work after all and you just copied it. Am I right? or I'm wrong with my understanding?

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kalvano
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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby kalvano » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:21 am

I just figure you can't go wrong with the official Bluebook citation format.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:17 pm

I am 6 months into my 2-year clerkship with a magistrate judge? Is it too soon to ask him/her for a LOR? I'm seeing a lot of 2013 dist court clerkships popping up, especially ones that require prior clerkship experience. If I ever have a shot at a dist. court clerkship, it will be now. Anyone have any experience with this?

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:08 pm

I graduated law school in 2008 and plan on applying to clerkships this year. One of my classmates is now a law professor at the same school we went to. Think it would be okay have him write a LOR on my behalf?

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby gotmilk? » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:02 am

Do you think district court judges ever monitor applications as they come in, and, if a really top person applies, calls that person for an interview (even if the judge doesn't normally hire off-plan)? Or do judges just let applications accumulate until they decide that they want to hire?

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:14 am

:lol:
Last edited by Anonymous User on Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:52 am

Anonymous User wrote:I graduated law school in 2008 and plan on applying to clerkships this year. One of my classmates is now a law professor at the same school we went to. Think it would be okay have him write a LOR on my behalf?


This is a bad idea. This is what you are really asking: "Rather than get a LOR from one of my professors or one of my employers/supervisors, can I instead get a LOR from one of my classmates?"

I'm going to go ahead and assume that your classmate never: supervised your work, graded your exams, or graded your papers.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:54 am

gotmilk? wrote:Do you think district court judges ever monitor applications as they come in, and, if a really top person applies, calls that person for an interview (even if the judge doesn't normally hire off-plan)? Or do judges just let applications accumulate until they decide that they want to hire?


Depends on the judge. I imagine that it would probably take a phone call from a recommender to get a judge to move months early. Even then, it's unlikely the judge will move early unless he/she feels pressured.

Also, what exactly is a really top person? Most district courts have far too many great candidates to consider all the great ones and some district courts are awash with really great candidates.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:28 am

The other day, I went to talk with an advisor at my school, and she said that I shouldn't have my recommenders call judges unless and until I have an interview with a particular judge. That came as a huge surprise to me, since I was under the impression that phone calls are a big factor in whether you get an interview in the first place, and I was basically planning my whole application strategy around that idea. Who's right, me or the advisor?

This is for district clerkships, if that makes a difference.




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