Clerks Taking Questions

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:13 am

Do you think it is useful to put a sentence or two in the cover letter to the effect of: "I understand that many judges this year are hiring early, but if you intend to hire on-plan, I apologize for the early application and wish to be considered at that time."? Is it a real possibility that an application to a judge now will offend the judge and this language would keep an app being thrown out?

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby traydeuce » Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:17 pm

First choice is really something that's more for your recommenders to get across. In my view.

About that last question, I didn't do off-plan, but I thought the idea was to know which judges were off-plan and apply to them, not to cluelessly send your info to genuinely on-plan judges. My school's career services office seemed to have a pretty accurate idea of who was off-plan and who wasn't; judges inform the top schools of these things.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:37 pm

Just received my AO-78 form to complete before my start date. Does anyone know if these are handled by HR at each district court, or are they just processed by the AO in DC?

I'd obviously like to qualify for GS-12, but I'm not sure if my judge has any discretion in making this determination...Any thoughts?

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:41 pm

traydeuce wrote:First choice is really something that's more for your recommenders to get across. In my view.

About that last question, I didn't do off-plan, but I thought the idea was to know which judges were off-plan and apply to them, not to cluelessly send your info to genuinely on-plan judges. My school's career services office seemed to have a pretty accurate idea of who was off-plan and who wasn't; judges inform the top schools of these things.


I'm the "last question" anon. My school does have a pretty accurate idea, except there are a lot of judges that are going early this year when they haven't before (or are going earlier than they did before), so my school's advice is to send them all out early (unless for sure it's an on-plan stickler judge), and to include something along the lines of what I said above. Frankly, I think it sounds a bit weird because either way the judge is going to look at your app when you are interviewing, but they obviously have more experience dealing with judges than I do.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
traydeuce wrote:First choice is really something that's more for your recommenders to get across. In my view.

About that last question, I didn't do off-plan, but I thought the idea was to know which judges were off-plan and apply to them, not to cluelessly send your info to genuinely on-plan judges. My school's career services office seemed to have a pretty accurate idea of who was off-plan and who wasn't; judges inform the top schools of these things.


I'm the "last question" anon. My school does have a pretty accurate idea, except there are a lot of judges that are going early this year when they haven't before (or are going earlier than they did before), so my school's advice is to send them all out early (unless for sure it's an on-plan stickler judge), and to include something along the lines of what I said above. Frankly, I think it sounds a bit weird because either way the judge is going to look at your app when you are interviewing, but they obviously have more experience dealing with judges than I do.


Is your school encouraging sending apps in right now, before 2nd semester grades? Or after grades come out? I really appreciate your input, as I am struggling with this daily.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Br3v » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:25 am

Not important:
but as An 0L with ambitions of getting a clerkship, I read lots of all of the new updates everyday in this thread; and learn more almost every time I check. Thank you GTL specifically as well as the others participating

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:56 am

G.T.L.Rev:
Have you ever heard of a 1L getting a post-graduate clerkship during 1L summer?

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:13 am

One of my recommenders is being very slow in getting a rec out for me (I think because this person is just generally slow, not anything against me). Will an application with only one or two recommendations in get put to the side until all recs are in, even if the judge is currently hiring? Would a call from the main, well-known recommender help get the app noticed instead of tabled as incomplete?

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:16 am

Anonymous User wrote:G.T.L.Rev:
Have you ever heard of a 1L getting a post-graduate clerkship during 1L summer?


Maybe GTL Rev has but I haven't. However you can leave a good impression that summer. I externed for a district judge the summer after 1l and eventually was offered a 1-year clerkship with that judge after I applied during my 3l year.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:27 am

If a judge is listed as hiring on OSCAR but only has the online option selected (as opposed to paper), does that imply that the judge is not accepting 2L (or any non-3L/graduate) applications or is it fair game to send a paper application to them as well?

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:54 pm

I am going through the background check process for a dist ct clerkship right now. Anyone ever been required to submit an official transcript AFTER you've completed your employment docs for HR? My school has always managed to take their sweet time when I've submitted transcript requests in the past...

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:06 pm

Is your school encouraging sending apps in right now, before 2nd semester grades? Or after grades come out? I really appreciate your input, as I am struggling with this daily.[/quote]
If a judge is hiring now, what good does it do to wait for second semester grades? This is where having fresh, granular intel on which judges are moving makes a huge difference. You cannot win a hiring contest you fail to participate in.[/quote]

So in this case, sending out apps, now....in the cover letter, do we describe ourselves as "a second year student" even if the application will probably be read when you are a "rising third year student"? "Second year student" really shows how early this app really is....
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:10 pm

G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:G.T.L.Rev:
Have you ever heard of a 1L getting a post-graduate clerkship during 1L summer?

Yes. Believe it or not, a decade ago 1L hiring was the norm. Judges hated it, however, as it forced them to hire applicants on the basis of only a small amount of data. For the past several years, post 2L hiring has been the norm, with a little bit of hiring during 2L year. This year the during 2L hiring has really picked up. And in a new development, two COA judges hired people after their 1L year, before 2L was underway.


Curious about this. Are these two out of reach absent just getting lucky with 1L professor assignments? Even /w the credentials (Top of HYS, LR, appropriate conservative signals) that one could get by the end of 1L year it would seem very easy to just not get the phone calls you needed...

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:18 am

Yeah, professor assignments probably help. Like at HLS, it probably is really helpful to be in the 1L section that has Manning 1L year; the same is probably true at Stanford with McConnell, or at Yale with whoever the conservative analogue is there. As with most clerkship positions, there's a lot of luck involved.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:54 pm

2L here, my comment has been selected for publication in my journal. At first I was thrilled but now I'm not sure I should have it published. It is on a very controversial topic & I chose the ultra conservative (ie not the side Judges would vote for) side. On top of that it is not at all my best writing.

Do I get it published? If I get it published will it forever loom over my head or will it just be understood that I took a side & argued it? Will I ever get a job with a judge thereafter?

Thanks!
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:29 pm

Any clerks in the Chicago market able to give some financial information? I'm trying to figure out how much the take-home is going to be on the clerkship bonus, and the take-home for the remainder of the stub year. None of the calculators online seem to be capable of accounting for the changes in job, etc., and spitting back the right number of allowances I should claim on the W-4 that I file with the firm when I start.

ETA: I know clerkship scramble gives an approximate take-home of 26-29k, but that's for higher-tax jurisdictions; and, I'm trying to figure out how many allowances I should claim in order to avoid the large refund the following year. For a variety of reasons, I really need to maximize cash-on-hand immediately after I start at the firm.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:G.T.L.Rev:
Have you ever heard of a 1L getting a post-graduate clerkship during 1L summer?

Yes. Believe it or not, a decade ago 1L hiring was the norm. Judges hated it, however, as it forced them to hire applicants on the basis of only a small amount of data. For the past several years, post 2L hiring has been the norm, with a little bit of hiring during 2L year. This year the during 2L hiring has really picked up. And in a new development, two COA judges hired people after their 1L year, before 2L was underway.


Curious about this. Are these two out of reach absent just getting lucky with 1L professor assignments? Even /w the credentials (Top of HYS, LR, appropriate conservative signals) that one could get by the end of 1L year it would seem very easy to just not get the phone calls you needed...


With at least one of these judges, it's more about being in the right place at the right time -- and, at least one of them is pretty open about hiring early.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:55 pm

G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
traydeuce wrote:First choice is really something that's more for your recommenders to get across. In my view.

About that last question, I didn't do off-plan, but I thought the idea was to know which judges were off-plan and apply to them, not to cluelessly send your info to genuinely on-plan judges. My school's career services office seemed to have a pretty accurate idea of who was off-plan and who wasn't; judges inform the top schools of these things.


I'm the "last question" anon. My school does have a pretty accurate idea, except there are a lot of judges that are going early this year when they haven't before (or are going earlier than they did before), so my school's advice is to send them all out early (unless for sure it's an on-plan stickler judge), and to include something along the lines of what I said above. Frankly, I think it sounds a bit weird because either way the judge is going to look at your app when you are interviewing, but they obviously have more experience dealing with judges than I do.


Is your school encouraging sending apps in right now, before 2nd semester grades? Or after grades come out? I really appreciate your input, as I am struggling with this daily.

If a judge is hiring now, what good does it do to wait for second semester grades? This is where having fresh, granular intel on which judges are moving makes a huge difference. You cannot win a hiring contest you fail to participate in.


More so - if there's any possibility a judge is going to hire early, you should: 1st send your application materials now (if you're a 2L then without recommendation letters but with a list of references) and 2d update your application when your spring grades come out. And, if when the plan comes around and you've haven't heard anything from that judge (or heard that s/he has hired) then you submit a new application.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:57 pm

if your note was selected to be published and will be published well after you apply, what do you write in your resume-cite it as best you can, name, title, journal.. then in parenthesis (selected for future publication) ?

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby kalvano » Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:if your note was selected to be published and will be published well after you apply, what do you write in your resume-cite it as best you can, name, title, journal.. then in parenthesis (selected for future publication) ?



I had this happen. There is a proper Bluebook format, though it looks crappy. I think it's Rule 17.1 or 17.3? Something like that.

Mine just reads:

Author, title, journal name, and then "(Forthcoming, Spring 2012)(discussing blah de blah blah blah)"

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:02 pm

Anonymous User wrote:if your note was selected to be published and will be published well after you apply, what do you write in your resume-cite it as best you can, name, title, journal.. then in parenthesis (selected for future publication) ?


When I did my applications and had an outstanding publication, I put:

Article Title, -- Other J. Abb. -- (publication forthcoming [year]) (available on SSRN at [url])

Comment, Article Title, -- J. Abb. -- (publication forthcoming [year])

I didn't put the comment on SSRN because meh. The "real article," though, got thrown up there.

I don't think you really need to have a (discussing) parenthetical, because you're probably using it as your writing sample (unless you have two publications and the title doesn't make the discussion obvious). Similarly, why in god's name would you include the author's name (i.e., yourself) on your own resume??
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby kalvano » Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:02 pm

Also, I would just like to say thanks again to G.T.L. and tray and all the other people who have been so helpful in this thread. I sent off my first application this week, and everyone's advice was incredibly helpful in getting things ready. Your time and effort here is not unappreciated.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:if your note was selected to be published and will be published well after you apply, what do you write in your resume-cite it as best you can, name, title, journal.. then in parenthesis (selected for future publication) ?


When I did my applications and had an outstanding publication, I put:

Article Title, -- Other J. Abb. -- (publication forthcoming [year]) (available on SSRN at [url])

Comment, Article Title, -- J. Abb. -- (publication forthcoming [year])

I didn't put the comment on SSRN because meh. The "real article," though, got thrown up there.

I don't think you really need to have a (discussing) parenthetical, because you're probably using it as your writing sample (unless you have two publications and the title doesn't make the discussion obvious). Similarly, why in god's name would you include the author's name (i.e., yourself) on your own resume??


What do you think about the controversial topic/question above? Do all who read the comment take it to mean this is your definite stance or that you as a law student, took this stance as matter of argument?

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:03 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:if your note was selected to be published and will be published well after you apply, what do you write in your resume-cite it as best you can, name, title, journal.. then in parenthesis (selected for future publication) ?


When I did my applications and had an outstanding publication, I put:

Article Title, -- Other J. Abb. -- (publication forthcoming [year]) (available on SSRN at [url])

Comment, Article Title, -- J. Abb. -- (publication forthcoming [year])

I didn't put the comment on SSRN because meh. The "real article," though, got thrown up there.

I don't think you really need to have a (discussing) parenthetical, because you're probably using it as your writing sample (unless you have two publications and the title doesn't make the discussion obvious). Similarly, why in god's name would you include the author's name (i.e., yourself) on your own resume??


What do you think about the controversial topic/question above? Do all who read the comment take it to mean this is your definite stance or that you as a law student, took this stance as matter of argument?


I will say: I am going into debtor-side bankruptcy. The article I published took a fairly harsh anti-debtor stance on a hot-button bankruptcy issue. I don't regret having the publication, even though I may eventually be called on to argue against my own position. (A client's money clears the mind, one might say.) But that's a little different than publishing on a hot-button "social issue" topic.

When I was an editor, we had two hot-button comments come through. I did a large amount of counselling with both people to make sure they wanted their names attached to controversial viewpoints. That said, those were on "unresolved" questions. You're basically arguing against Roe, and that might be a really tough sell for any judge. It's a tough call. If I was looking at your resume, I wouldn't throw it away because of the article. It could score you some points with some conservative judges and lose you some points with some liberal judges, but I think that, in the end, the bump you get from being published probably outweighs the negatives.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:07 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:if your note was selected to be published and will be published well after you apply, what do you write in your resume-cite it as best you can, name, title, journal.. then in parenthesis (selected for future publication) ?


When I did my applications and had an outstanding publication, I put:

Article Title, -- Other J. Abb. -- (publication forthcoming [year]) (available on SSRN at [url])

Comment, Article Title, -- J. Abb. -- (publication forthcoming [year])

I didn't put the comment on SSRN because meh. The "real article," though, got thrown up there.

I don't think you really need to have a (discussing) parenthetical, because you're probably using it as your writing sample (unless you have two publications and the title doesn't make the discussion obvious). Similarly, why in god's name would you include the author's name (i.e., yourself) on your own resume??


What do you think about the controversial topic/question above? Do all who read the comment take it to mean this is your definite stance or that you as a law student, took this stance as matter of argument?


I will say: I am going into debtor-side bankruptcy. The article I published took a fairly harsh anti-debtor stance on a hot-button bankruptcy issue. I don't regret having the publication, even though I may eventually be called on to argue against my own position. (A client's money clears the mind, one might say.) But that's a little different than publishing on a hot-button "social issue" topic.

When I was an editor, we had two hot-button comments come through. I did a large amount of counselling with both people to make sure they wanted their names attached to controversial viewpoints. That said, those were on "unresolved" questions. You're basically arguing against Roe, and that might be a really tough sell for any judge. It's a tough call. If I was looking at your resume, I wouldn't throw it away because of the article. It could score you some points with some conservative judges and lose you some points with some liberal judges, but I think that, in the end, the bump you get from being published probably outweighs the negatives.


If your paper is really an anti-Roe paper, I would question its novelty. There are 40 years of anti-Roe scholarship, and it's unlikely that a student note is hitting on anything really that novel.

That said, if you are that pro-life, then would you really be happy clerking for a judge who doesn't agree?




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