Clerks Taking Questions

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:08 pm

Nvm, I see ur collecting Pms from ppl, maybe that's where u got ur data.

Fwiw, I am basing my top fourteen top quarter advice on data from doing admin work at lower top fourteen career office spanning 2040-2010.

Maybe the world has changed,but so did big law hiring which has since rebounded. I still don't see how anyone is a legit clerkship guru without relying on a database of some sort. U know, data isn't the plural of anecdote.

But I think ppl should do a Lsn equivalent for clerking. That seems like a great substitute for threads like this. Sure ud have the bullshit factor in there w ppl claiming scotus or what noe, but at least you could graph shit year by yr, discern court trends, etc. if you are collecting data, I suggest summarizing it and posting it here eventually.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Meant to say top fourteen not sure why that happnd .. Replaced 4 w 9 everywhere


TLS be April 1 trollin' trollin'

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Cavalier
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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Cavalier » Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:i worked at a T19 career office for some time pre-ls (dont out me, i think i'm pretty rare in this). this thread overstates how selective district and circuit clerkships are. T19 top-25% is good enough for a prestigious large-city regional district (i.e. ndill for nu/chi, sdny for columbia/nyu, c/ndcal for berk/ucla/stanford, etc.); and top 15% is good enough for a prestigious large-city regional circuit (see parenthetical above).

only time you need top5% T19 LR board + publication etc. is when you're trying to win an away game, i.e. Berkeley student trying to land 7th Cir. etc. NU top 15% has muuuuch better landing a 7th Cir. job than the Berkeley top 15%. this point is key. locate the nearest prestigious district/circuit and focus your attention there if you're at any T19. this thread totally misses the mark, misrepresents how accessible clerkships are, and is only appropriate advice if you're trying to win an away game. maybe the author has the limited perspective of class of '11 or something. also, forget this thread for feeder clerkships, if you haven't been approached by anyone at your school (see e.g. dean/prof), then you're not going to get a feeder clerkship. peace.

This post illustrates how little career services offices often know about clerkship hiring.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:40 pm

Cavalier wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:i worked at a T19 career office for some time pre-ls (dont out me, i think i'm pretty rare in this). this thread overstates how selective district and circuit clerkships are. T19 top-25% is good enough for a prestigious large-city regional district (i.e. ndill for nu/chi, sdny for columbia/nyu, c/ndcal for berk/ucla/stanford, etc.); and top 15% is good enough for a prestigious large-city regional circuit (see parenthetical above).

only time you need top5% T19 LR board + publication etc. is when you're trying to win an away game, i.e. Berkeley student trying to land 7th Cir. etc. NU top 15% has muuuuch better landing a 7th Cir. job than the Berkeley top 15%. this point is key. locate the nearest prestigious district/circuit and focus your attention there if you're at any T19. this thread totally misses the mark, misrepresents how accessible clerkships are, and is only appropriate advice if you're trying to win an away game. maybe the author has the limited perspective of class of '11 or something. also, forget this thread for feeder clerkships, if you haven't been approached by anyone at your school (see e.g. dean/prof), then you're not going to get a feeder clerkship. peace.

This post illustrates how little career services offices often know about clerkship hiring.


Yeah, I'd love see students' reaction to this at my T10, where a number of top 10% types were completely shut out of any CoA or D.Ct. position. My school got reamed this year -- everyone was shocked by how difficult it has become.

It sounds like people used to say "oh, top 10% at a t10 will definitely get you a clerkship if you apply broadly," but now the only sure thing seems to be that people ranked in the single-digits at their school (usually top 3 or 4%) at a T10 will usually lock something down.

Obvioulsy it completely depends on the person and the school, and there are lots of outliers, but to hear the person above say "top 15% is good enough for pretigious large-city regional circuit" is some alternate-universe shit.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:42 pm

Cavalier wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:i worked at a T19 career office for some time pre-ls (dont out me, i think i'm pretty rare in this). this thread overstates how selective district and circuit clerkships are. T19 top-25% is good enough for a prestigious large-city regional district (i.e. ndill for nu/chi, sdny for columbia/nyu, c/ndcal for berk/ucla/stanford, etc.); and top 15% is good enough for a prestigious large-city regional circuit (see parenthetical above).

only time you need top5% T19 LR board + publication etc. is when you're trying to win an away game, i.e. Berkeley student trying to land 7th Cir. etc. NU top 15% has muuuuch better landing a 7th Cir. job than the Berkeley top 15%. this point is key. locate the nearest prestigious district/circuit and focus your attention there if you're at any T19. this thread totally misses the mark, misrepresents how accessible clerkships are, and is only appropriate advice if you're trying to win an away game. maybe the author has the limited perspective of class of '11 or something. also, forget this thread for feeder clerkships, if you haven't been approached by anyone at your school (see e.g. dean/prof), then you're not going to get a feeder clerkship. peace.



This post illustrates how little career services offices often know about clerkship hiring anything.


UChicago's CSO preached that the absolutely absurd limit on clerkship applications that it placed on students would help students by avoiding dillution.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:59 pm

I've looked through and searched this thread but haven't really found an answer to the following question (apologies if I just missed something): when should alums apply and when should we expect to get any calls for interviews from CoA judges?

I'm not talking feeder judges, and I obviously know every judge is different, but does it usually happen over the summer? Has it already happened? I've sent out some applications and plan to send out others relatively soon, but unlike applying on-plan, I'm not sure when to give up hope. (My school's clerkship office is worthless for out-of-state judges.)

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:15 pm

G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:
Cavalier wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:i worked at a T19 career office for some time pre-ls (dont out me, i think i'm pretty rare in this). this thread overstates how selective district and circuit clerkships are. T19 top-25% is good enough for a prestigious large-city regional district (i.e. ndill for nu/chi, sdny for columbia/nyu, c/ndcal for berk/ucla/stanford, etc.); and top 15% is good enough for a prestigious large-city regional circuit (see parenthetical above).

only time you need top5% T19 LR board + publication etc. is when you're trying to win an away game, i.e. Berkeley student trying to land 7th Cir. etc. NU top 15% has muuuuch better landing a 7th Cir. [ERROR: 404] than the Berkeley top 15%. this point is key. locate the nearest prestigious district/circuit and focus your attention there if you're at any T19. this thread totally misses the mark, misrepresents how accessible clerkships are, and is only appropriate advice if you're trying to win an away game. maybe the author has the limited perspective of class of '11 or something. also, forget this thread for feeder clerkships, if you haven't been approached by anyone at your school (see e.g. dean/prof), then you're not going to get a feeder clerkship. peace.



This post illustrates how little career services offices often know about clerkship hiring anything.


UChicago's Ministry of Silly Walks preached that the absolutely absurd limit on clerkship applications that it placed on students would help students by avoiding dillution.

LOL. That is simply amazing. TToN, can you briefly restate the #s for your class in terms of clerkship placement? I recall that they were particularly dreadful, and thus a nice counterpoint (though certainly not counter-proof) to the rad law's post about top 25% + T19 = N.D. Ill./SDNY/C.D. Cal.

One of the big things going on 2004-2010 was a huge expansion in (1) associate salaries at law firms and (2) summer class sizes at large firms. Lots of people were deciding against clerking due to these factors, which clearly no longer obtain. Yes, c/o 2011 hiring by firms was down, and things have slightly rebounded since then, but the fact remains that a long-term, structural chance has come to potato hiring. And it has increased demand for clerkships. That increase probably is permanent. Clerkship application numbers are now something like 4-5 times what they were just five years ago.


I can't remember our exact placement; I know that half of our LR Ed. Board struck out, among other things. I think our total placement (including district courts and the like) came in under 20 people, but I could be mis-remembering.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:23 pm

Lately it seems to be that Stanford has better clerkship placement than Harvard, although just a couple years back, Harvard had the upper hand. Any thoughts on this? Which place gives one the best shots of landing a CoA clerkship?

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Lately it seems to be that Stanford has better clerkship placement than Harvard, although just a couple years back, Harvard had the upper hand. Any thoughts on this? Which place gives one the best shots of landing a CoA clerkship?


Assuming you are a 0L here... This might sound flippant, but don't choose a law school based on CoA odds. Your odds will be approximately equal out of the T3, and about the same as between the lower T14 (probably a bit of an edge for UVA). It's really better to just look at job data in general and figure out which school will put you in the best position for being employed.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:49 pm

im who worked at career services.
now i realize that 2011 is a mighty different picture from back when i worked.
back when i worked (2010), schools were sending at least 50% more students into clerkship positions.

That number seems to have dropped dramatically because there's clearly an upward trend in alumni clerks? My bad, g.t. , go on.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:36 pm

Like others, I am in the process of applying for post-grad clerkships already. Is there any maximum on the number of pages to be in the writing sample? I have an appellate brief that is pretty good and that is relevant to a topic that the courts I am applying to have never considered. The brief is between 17-21 pages depending on whether I have it in size 12 or size 14 font. Assuming I do size 12 font, is 17 pages too long? You always hear that 10 pages is a good limit, but I think this brief is much better than my 8 page brief that is very limited argument-wise (and that isn't an appellate brief, which might not be as good since I am applying to the COA). Any suggestions?

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby traydeuce » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:59 pm

17's a great length. 10 strikes me as too low. That said, don't use a brief if you can avoid it. Your note, if you wrote one, would be better. Or an internal memo, if you're allowed to use one.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby traydeuce » Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:04 pm

Br3v wrote:Sorry if this is obvious, but are clerkships political
in the sense that judges tend/only hire those on the same side of the political spectrum, or does this not play a role?


Plays a role with a minority of judges.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:07 pm

traydeuce wrote:17's a great length. 10 strikes me as too low. That said, don't use a brief if you can avoid it. Your note, if you wrote one, would be better. Or an internal memo, if you're allowed to use one.


I have a note, but, quite frankly, it isn't very good. It's a little above 25 pages. I have an actual appellate brief that I wrote for my summer employer this past summer, but it's around 28 pages. I'm sure I could cut some stuff out, and I feel certain the summer employer would grant me permission. However, I don't know if the brief is very good since the state COA still hasn't made a decision on it. I know that the class brief is good since I got the highest grade in the class on it.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby traydeuce » Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
traydeuce wrote:17's a great length. 10 strikes me as too low. That said, don't use a brief if you can avoid it. Your note, if you wrote one, would be better. Or an internal memo, if you're allowed to use one.


I have a note, but, quite frankly, it isn't very good. It's a little above 25 pages. I have an actual appellate brief that I wrote for my summer employer this past summer, but it's around 28 pages. I'm sure I could cut some stuff out, and I feel certain the summer employer would grant me permission. However, I don't know if the brief is very good since the state COA still hasn't made a decision on it. I know that the class brief is good since I got the highest grade in the class on it.


Well, the state COA's decision has little to nothing to do with the quality of your brief. Don't decide it's good if you win or bad if you lose.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:07 pm

traydeuce wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
traydeuce wrote:17's a great length. 10 strikes me as too low. That said, don't use a brief if you can avoid it. Your note, if you wrote one, would be better. Or an internal memo, if you're allowed to use one.


I have a note, but, quite frankly, it isn't very good. It's a little above 25 pages. I have an actual appellate brief that I wrote for my summer employer this past summer, but it's around 28 pages. I'm sure I could cut some stuff out, and I feel certain the summer employer would grant me permission. However, I don't know if the brief is very good since the state COA still hasn't made a decision on it. I know that the class brief is good since I got the highest grade in the class on it.


Well, the state COA's decision has little to nothing to do with the quality of your brief. Don't decide it's good if you win or bad if you lose.


If I use the real brief, what's the protocol for changing the parties' names, locations, case number, etc.? Since it's public record, that seems like it wouldn't be necessary, but I know some people suggest doing it out of a sense of professionalism.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby traydeuce » Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
traydeuce wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
traydeuce wrote:17's a great length. 10 strikes me as too low. That said, don't use a brief if you can avoid it. Your note, if you wrote one, would be better. Or an internal memo, if you're allowed to use one.


I have a note, but, quite frankly, it isn't very good. It's a little above 25 pages. I have an actual appellate brief that I wrote for my summer employer this past summer, but it's around 28 pages. I'm sure I could cut some stuff out, and I feel certain the summer employer would grant me permission. However, I don't know if the brief is very good since the state COA still hasn't made a decision on it. I know that the class brief is good since I got the highest grade in the class on it.


Well, the state COA's decision has little to nothing to do with the quality of your brief. Don't decide it's good if you win or bad if you lose.


If I use the real brief, what's the protocol for changing the parties' names, locations, case number, etc.? Since it's public record, that seems like it wouldn't be necessary, but I know some people suggest doing it out of a sense of professionalism.


Yeah... first of all I would lose the cover and the contents and a bunch of little sections; just keep facts, summary of argument, argument. Leaving the case number out. Then you probably should change the names of the parties; a few people could mind if you don't.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby kalvano » Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:49 pm

So, writing samples...I did a research paper for my journal that's going to be published, but it's not a brief and it's not a memo. It's more like a survey of litigation and summaries over the past year in certain tech areas. I like it, and I think I did a great job on it, but my instincts tell me it's probably not good for a writing sample.

Am I correct in this?

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby anongoodnurse » Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:29 am

how much experience did you have when applying;


A good bit. A half-dozen or so years, split evenly between V20 and government. With respect to the latter, I've had some really interesting experience -- a handful of COA and SSC arguments, lots of lead counsel briefing experience, a decent amount of court time, etc.

did you have LR;


No. But while practicing I've written several pieces, including a reasonably well-placed (top 100 mainline law review) article. (I've also since placed a LR article in a top 30 law review, but that happened several months after the clerkship application/interview process -- though I think you can see what I'm trying to do with the clerkship!).

and when in the cycle did you apply?


Mostly late spring to mid summer.

Your answers would help a number of alumni applicants, I think, as far as gauging their chances.


Hope so!

Congrats on the interviews, by the way.


Eh. An interview plus $2 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. I got an offer after the fourth one -- fortuitously it was the one that I wanted the most -- and cancelled the other two.

Incidentally, how it was explained to me (I should be clear that this was not by my judge or his chambers, in case someone can figure out who I am), was that there are a handful of judges out there who like more experienced clerks (by this I mean three or more years of biglaw or government). But once you get past the three year mark, the number of applicants falls dramatically, especially for people with more stereotypical AIII clerk credentials (top 25% at a top 14, LR, publications, etc.) who didn't clerk right out of law school for whatever reason. If you are applying to those judges, and you have those credentials, then you are going to have success -- there's just so few "top 20% from Columbia with a secondary journal, a post law school publication, and four years litigating at S&C"-type people applying for clerkships. Really just people (1) trying to do the shift to academia, (2) wanting to try for USAO in the jurisdictions that de facto require a clerkship, or (3) going up for partner in a few years in one of the few firms that require it for certain lit groups (which are rare but not unheard of).

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby traydeuce » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:25 pm

kalvano wrote:So, writing samples...I did a research paper for my journal that's going to be published, but it's not a brief and it's not a memo. It's more like a survey of litigation and summaries over the past year in certain tech areas. I like it, and I think I did a great job on it, but my instincts tell me it's probably not good for a writing sample.

Am I correct in this?


Your writing sample has to make an argument. So probably not.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:05 pm

traydeuce wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
traydeuce wrote:17's a great length. 10 strikes me as too low. That said, don't use a brief if you can avoid it. Your note, if you wrote one, would be better. Or an internal memo, if you're allowed to use one.


I have a note, but, quite frankly, it isn't very good. It's a little above 25 pages. I have an actual appellate brief that I wrote for my summer employer this past summer, but it's around 28 pages. I'm sure I could cut some stuff out, and I feel certain the summer employer would grant me permission. However, I don't know if the brief is very good since the state COA still hasn't made a decision on it. I know that the class brief is good since I got the highest grade in the class on it.


Well, the state COA's decision has little to nothing to do with the quality of your brief. Don't decide it's good if you win or bad if you lose.


Got permission from the attorney I drafted it for and was planning to use it, but I saw that you suggested not using a brief if I can avoid it. Would it be better to use a legal writing class memo, this appellate court brief (that I think is very good), or one of the memos I wrote during my summer work? I assume that it would be better to use the real brief since it was my best work by far (I think anyway), but your suggestion seems to suggest that a memo I drafted for work would be better even if it isn't as good. Is that what you meant?

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Re: Clerk, taking questions for a bit

Postby fastlenny » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:29 pm

No need to be a jackass about it. There are a lot of ppl who wouldn't even sniff your resume too, always remember that.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby traydeuce » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Got permission from the attorney I drafted it for and was planning to use it, but I saw that you suggested not using a brief if I can avoid it. Would it be better to use a legal writing class memo, this appellate court brief (that I think is very good), or one of the memos I wrote during my summer work? I assume that it would be better to use the real brief since it was my best work by far (I think anyway), but your suggestion seems to suggest that a memo I drafted for work would be better even if it isn't as good. Is that what you meant?


As you suggest, my suggestion is open to interpretation. My view is that if you have a memo that's very good, use it even if the brief is better. But if every memo you've written is just alright, then use your brief. In general though, I'm sure you can see the problems with briefs as samples. The purpose of the sample is to see how you, without the bias of having a client, analyze a legal problem, not how well you can advocate for someone. If Paul Clement himself, in a hypothetical world where he was looking for a clerkship, were to send in his healthcare brief, it'd make an awful writing sample because it's basically a piece of one-sided rhetoric; a bench memo in the same case would look nothing like what he filed, even if it was arguing for the same result.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby traydeuce » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:54 pm

lynch wrote:
G. T. L. Rev. wrote:Clerkship apps, bar exam stuff, firms, life in a judge's chambers, interviewing, whatever. But be warned: I don't know squat about judicial internships, and my judge doesn't hire interns, so don't expect much help on that front.

2/12/13 edit: changed name of thread


hi good day! I'm new in this forum but may I ask what to expect as intern? thank you,


What kind of judge are you interning for?

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:52 pm

I am looking to get my resume ready to send out for clerkships next month. Is the undergrad gpa suppose to be on resume? My undergrad gpa is 3.74, also magna cum laude, phi beta kappa at top private school. I'm beginning to think if I take off the gpa and just have magna cum laude, phi beta kappa, it will look better?? Thoughts. Thanks.




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