Clerks Taking Questions

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:23 pm

I don't mean to be a downer but I have struggled a lot over the past few months because of the timing of my clerkship. I am clerking in SDNY in 2018-2019. I graduated this past May from a T14 law school. Right now I am jobless because my 2L summer was with a small firm that does not really make "offers," like the big firms do. They seemed to not have a lot of work. I was a transfer and it was the best option I had at the time of 2L OCI. I have been rejected from 20 or so biglaw firms that I have interviewed with this past year, beginning with 3L oci and onward. Now, I am struggling to find a job because I have to tell everyone I interview with that I am clerking in two years and they probably assume that when I clerk I will leave the firm. Did anyone have this issue with a gap between law school graduation and clerking? How did they manage it and what sort of work did they do in between? I have a two-year gap. I also must be in NY for personal reasons and cannot really leave--so admittedly, my job search is limited.

I am feeling very depressed about this.

Many thanks in advance for any advice.

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ggocat
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Postby ggocat » Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:56 am

Anonymous User wrote:I have to tell everyone I interview with that I am clerking in two years

Why?

Jchance
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Postby Jchance » Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Are publications in non-law review, but journal type places well regarded in clerkship process? Something like "Journal of Law and XYZ". Peer-reviewed, reputable publishing house.


Yes. Some are more than the other.

For example, if you're gunning for patent district courts or Fed. Cir., a publication(s) with AIPLA Quarterly Journal or Journal of the Patent and Trademark Office Society looks great.

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rpupkin
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Postby rpupkin » Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I don't mean to be a downer but I have struggled a lot over the past few months because of the timing of my clerkship. I am clerking in SDNY in 2018-2019. I graduated this past May from a T14 law school. Right now I am jobless because my 2L summer was with a small firm that does not really make "offers," like the big firms do. They seemed to not have a lot of work. I was a transfer and it was the best option I had at the time of 2L OCI. I have been rejected from 20 or so biglaw firms that I have interviewed with this past year, beginning with 3L oci and onward. Now, I am struggling to find a job because I have to tell everyone I interview with that I am clerking in two years and they probably assume that when I clerk I will leave the firm. Did anyone have this issue with a gap between law school graduation and clerking? How did they manage it and what sort of work did they do in between? I have a two-year gap. I also must be in NY for personal reasons and cannot really leave--so admittedly, my job search is limited.

I'm sorry. This is a difficult situation that I think is a bit more common than law students realize.

Here's my advice: seek the help of your judge. Your judge will likely have all sorts of connections and would probably be happy to make phone calls on your behalf.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Sep 17, 2016 11:57 pm

If a publication has recently been accepted onto a journal, should I be updating the judge via email or just through OSCAR? This is a judge with whom I've had an interview, and still waiting on... ETA: student note, not full article.

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rpupkin
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Postby rpupkin » Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:29 am

Anonymous User wrote:If a publication has recently been accepted onto a journal, should I be updating the judge via email or just through OSCAR? This is a judge with whom I've had an interview, and still waiting on... ETA: student note, not full article.

You shouldn't be updating the judge at all. The judge has already interviewed you. There's no benefit to updating your application at this point.

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ArtistOfManliness
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Postby ArtistOfManliness » Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:48 am

Anonymous User wrote:If a publication has recently been accepted onto a journal, should I be updating the judge via email or just through OSCAR? This is a judge with whom I've had an interview, and still waiting on... ETA: student note, not full article.


Yes. 100% yes. Dunno what the person above me is smoking, but not only can it not hurt, it will probably help.

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rpupkin
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Postby rpupkin » Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:59 am

ArtistOfManliness wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If a publication has recently been accepted onto a journal, should I be updating the judge via email or just through OSCAR? This is a judge with whom I've had an interview, and still waiting on... ETA: student note, not full article.


Yes. 100% yes. Dunno what the person above me is smoking, but not only can it not hurt, it will probably help.

Please explain how it would help.

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ArtistOfManliness
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Postby ArtistOfManliness » Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:22 am

rpupkin wrote:
ArtistOfManliness wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:If a publication has recently been accepted onto a journal, should I be updating the judge via email or just through OSCAR? This is a judge with whom I've had an interview, and still waiting on... ETA: student note, not full article.


Yes. 100% yes. Dunno what the person above me is smoking, but not only can it not hurt, it will probably help.

Please explain how it would help.


Here's how: Judge interviews Anon. Judge really liked Anon. Anon's credentials were not quite up to snuff. Or Anon's legal analysis wasn't quite as complex as she would have liked. Anon tells Judge he's getting a note published in SLR. Judge thinks, this boosts his credentials or SLR publishes only well-reasoned notes. Judge reconsiders. Anon gets hired and tells himself: "Good thing I sent the update, but I don't know why I ever wouldn't have because it couldn't have hurt."

Please explain how it would hurt.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:32 am

If you get an interview, it means the judge thinks you're qualified enough to hire. If they don't want to hire you after the interview it's because they've decided, after personally meeting you, that you are not what they're looking for. A journal accepting your article isn't going to change a judge's opinion of whether they want to work with you based on having met with you and talked to you.

If you really want to update, email chambers. But it's not like law school admissions where if you update with enough good stuff it might tip the balance.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:21 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:If you get an interview, it means the judge thinks you're qualified enough to hire. If they don't want to hire you after the interview it's because they've decided, after personally meeting you, that you are not what they're looking for. A journal accepting your article isn't going to change a judge's opinion of whether they want to work with you based on having met with you and talked to you.

If you really want to update, email chambers. But it's not like law school admissions where if you update with enough good stuff it might tip the balance.


Thanks everyone for their input. FYI I dont have the chamber's email, only the judge's. Is emailing him directly weird? And repeating others' concerns over the "down sides" of sending an update email, would it just be perceived as annoying?

Jchance
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Postby Jchance » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:42 am

LOL @ thinking a student note publication is worth updating a judge, especially to his direct email.

YMMV. Rationally, this is how it's going to play out: Judge saw the the email and thinks to himself--"This kid has poor judgment. I was going to hire him/her but now seeing how s/he just wasted my time, I'll keep looking at the pile full of qualified candidates, likely with better judgment." Take your risk even though you already have an interview...

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Postby mjb447 » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:47 am

Anonymous User wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:If you get an interview, it means the judge thinks you're qualified enough to hire. If they don't want to hire you after the interview it's because they've decided, after personally meeting you, that you are not what they're looking for. A journal accepting your article isn't going to change a judge's opinion of whether they want to work with you based on having met with you and talked to you.

If you really want to update, email chambers. But it's not like law school admissions where if you update with enough good stuff it might tip the balance.


Thanks everyone for their input. FYI I dont have the chamber's email, only the judge's. Is emailing him directly weird? And repeating others' concerns over the "down sides" of sending an update email, would it just be perceived as annoying?

For basically the reasons that others have said, contacting the judge is likely to have little or no impact, but I was just about to comment that the biggest risk is doing anything weird/out of the ordinary or annoying, or that makes it appear that you don't understand what this part of the process is about (i.e., more "fit" than competence). I think emailing the judge directly to give this update will probably have no effect on your candidacy but could be perceived as weird or annoying. Basically, my perception is that there's more downside than upside to providing this update given where you are in the process.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:19 am

Yeah, don't email the judge directly. I assumed you had a chambers contact.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Postby BlackAndOrange84 » Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:If you get an interview, it means the judge thinks you're qualified enough to hire. If they don't want to hire you after the interview it's because they've decided, after personally meeting you, that you are not what they're looking for. A journal accepting your article isn't going to change a judge's opinion of whether they want to work with you based on having met with you and talked to you.

If you really want to update, email chambers. But it's not like law school admissions where if you update with enough good stuff it might tip the balance.


Thanks everyone for their input. FYI I dont have the chamber's email, only the judge's. Is emailing him directly weird? And repeating others' concerns over the "down sides" of sending an update email, would it just be perceived as annoying?


If you're dead set on notifying, you should have access to a leadership directory through your library—you can usually find contact info for the judge's JA there.

Edit: Unrelated but a good leadership directory often has at least the names of the judge's current clerks. I've found that helpful for running down info about the clerks if interviewing with them is part of the process.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Postby Emma. » Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:03 pm

With my COA judge the publication would have mattered so little at the post-interview stage that if someone called or emailed us to let us know we might not have even bothered passing that on to the judge. The judge cared about whether applicants could write well, and we wouldn't have brought you in for an interview if we didn't think that was the case. Whether or not your note was selected for publication meant essentially nothing.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:30 pm

Hi all. I'll be clerking in the 2nd Circuit but not in NYC. I understand that the judges that do not sit in NYC have to travel to NYC frequently to hear arguments and take their clerks with them. How frequent is this? How long is a trip usually? What expenses are covered when we have to travel and sit outside the area where our chambers is? Thanks!

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Postby mjb447 » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Hi all. I'll be clerking in the 2nd Circuit but not in NYC. I understand that the judges that do not sit in NYC have to travel to NYC frequently to hear arguments and take their clerks with them. How frequent is this? How long is a trip usually? What expenses are covered when we have to travel and sit outside the area where our chambers is? Thanks!

How often you'll be sitting for argument and for how long each time varies a lot between judges and between years. The 2d Cir. basically hears cases continually throughout the year except for the summer and around Christmas, and I think there's a certain number of argument calendars or cases that all active and full caseload senior judges are expected to hear. Some judges prefer to knock out a whole week at a time (may be more likely if you're coming from Vermont or upstate New York) while some sit for only a few days at a time more frequently (may be more likely from Conn.).

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:12 pm

Is there a source where I can find the judicial assistant's email of a chamber by any chance? Judicial Yellow Book is only showing me the judge, clerk, and court room deputy... I assume the last position isn't the same as the judicial assistant.

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rpupkin
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Postby rpupkin » Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Is there a source where I can find the judicial assistant's email of a chamber by any chance? Judicial Yellow Book is only showing me the judge, clerk, and court room deputy... I assume the last position isn't the same as the judicial assistant.

What question are you going to ask? For most questions, emailing the clerk would be fine. Also, you can always call chambers--the JA will likely pick up the phone.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:19 pm

rpupkin wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Is there a source where I can find the judicial assistant's email of a chamber by any chance? Judicial Yellow Book is only showing me the judge, clerk, and court room deputy... I assume the last position isn't the same as the judicial assistant.

What question are you going to ask? For most questions, emailing the clerk would be fine. Also, you can always call chambers--the JA will likely pick up the phone.


It's a notice regarding a pending deadline with another offer and a general follow up -- the judge has expressed that he/she would be in touch by now. Would it be appropriate to email the clerk who was in touch with me to set up the interview then? I feel uncomfortable contacting the judge directly.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:23 pm

mjb447 wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hi all. I'll be clerking in the 2nd Circuit but not in NYC. I understand that the judges that do not sit in NYC have to travel to NYC frequently to hear arguments and take their clerks with them. How frequent is this? How long is a trip usually? What expenses are covered when we have to travel and sit outside the area where our chambers is? Thanks!

How often you'll be sitting for argument and for how long each time varies a lot between judges and between years. The 2d Cir. basically hears cases continually throughout the year except for the summer and around Christmas, and I think there's a certain number of argument calendars or cases that all active and full caseload senior judges are expected to hear. Some judges prefer to knock out a whole week at a time (may be more likely if you're coming from Vermont or upstate New York) while some sit for only a few days at a time more frequently (may be more likely from Conn.).


Different anon here, but I'm interested in OP's last question: "What expenses are covered when we have to travel and sit outside the area where our chambers is? Thanks!"

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rpupkin
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Postby rpupkin » Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Is there a source where I can find the judicial assistant's email of a chamber by any chance? Judicial Yellow Book is only showing me the judge, clerk, and court room deputy... I assume the last position isn't the same as the judicial assistant.

What question are you going to ask? For most questions, emailing the clerk would be fine. Also, you can always call chambers--the JA will likely pick up the phone.


It's a notice regarding a pending deadline with another offer and a general follow up -- the judge has expressed that he/she would be in touch by now. Would it be appropriate to email the clerk who was in touch with me to set up the interview then? I feel uncomfortable contacting the judge directly.

You should not email the judge directly. You should just call chambers and explain the situation.

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grand inquisitor
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Postby grand inquisitor » Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:35 pm

it's like most federal travel--you will get hotel, mileage (if driving) or airfare and some sort of meals & incidentals allowance.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:06 pm

Ok, this is likely a silly question, but I am losing my mind here over a clerkship that I interviewed for. I graduated from a T6 with mediocre grades. Even though I would like to clerk, I didn't expect to get many interviews when I started applying because of my grades and lack of journal. I have gotten 6 interviews (a surprise), one of those is in a reasonably prestigious district (a major surprise). During that interview, I really got along with everyone in chambers, it is easily my top choice, etc.

Nonetheless, I am still surprised that I got the interview in the first place given that there must have been tons of competition. The Judge mentioned that she was interviewing one other person and set a deadline for getting back to me that has now passed (but chambers was clearly very busy, so whatever). After an interview, what tends to be the deciding factor? Is it purely fit? Or do grades and journal experience still play some role? I'm sure it is somewhat idiosyncratic and obviously the judge would not have called me in for an interview if she couldn't see hiring me. But say you had 2 candidates who each had good interviews-- one with stellar credentials and the other with mediocre ones-- how heavily do those credentials weigh at that point?




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