Clerks Taking Questions

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:42 am

Anonymous User wrote:The other day, I went to talk with an advisor at my school, and she said that I shouldn't have my recommenders call judges unless and until I have an interview with a particular judge. That came as a huge surprise to me, since I was under the impression that phone calls are a big factor in whether you get an interview in the first place, and I was basically planning my whole application strategy around that idea. Who's right, me or the advisor?

This is for district clerkships, if that makes a difference.

That advice is idiotic, and one more bit of evidence of clerkship advisers being clueless. The point of the phone call is mainly to get your application pulled from the pile of hundreds that the judge has received. You should have you recommenders call once it's certain your application has been received (i.e. a few days after mailing it).

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:05 pm

I'm a graduating 3L and clerking for a Magistrate Judge in a good district (NDIL/SDNY/EDNY/DDC/CDCA/SDCA) from Sep 2012-2013 and I'd like follow that with a year with an Article III (either District or COA (probably more likely District since I'm from a TTT)). I'd like to stay in the city/district (which is where most of the COA judges are anyways) that I'm clerking in.

When should I send out applications to judges in that area? Keeping in mind that judges are hiring for 2013 terms already, should I send them in now or should i wait until after I've clerked for a few months to send to available judges then?

(p.s. apologies if this has been answered in some form or other on this thread...I imagine it has I just didn't come across it in browsing through it)

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:44 pm

I apologize if this has been asked before, but....

Who's a better third recommendation: Someone who is in the clinical faculty and can speak positive on your work (and knows your name), or someone who is a full-time professor where you got a good grade, but probably doesn't who you are? The other two recommendations are leaning more toward the latter than the former.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby knickerbocker » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:30 pm

I know that I'm jumping on here early, but I'm a 0L deciding between UChicago and NYU. It seems like UChicago does way better in terms of Supreme Court clerkships. Clearly, I'm highly unlikely to ever get there, but is it true that UChicago does better in terms elite clerkships? Like, if I hope to clerk on the 2nd Circuit, would it be more likely from UChicago?
Thank you.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:27 pm

So if you're a former clerk and want to clerk with another judge... basically HAVE to get a recommendation from former judge, right? Like no way to just use the same old professor recommendations?

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby knickerbocker » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:48 pm

Thanks, G. T. L. Rev., for that thoughtful response.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby woeisme » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:07 pm

knickerbocker wrote:Thanks, G. T. L. Rev., for that thoughtful response.


Yeah, that was well written.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:14 am

G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
knickerbocker wrote:I know that I'm jumping on here early, but I'm a 0L deciding between UChicago and NYU. It seems like UChicago does way better in terms of Supreme Court clerkships. Clearly, I'm highly unlikely to ever get there, but is it true that UChicago does better in terms elite clerkships? Like, if I hope to clerk on the 2nd Circuit, would it be more likely from UChicago?
Thank you.

I take it you have examined these SCOTUS placement stats. I was surprised to see that, for OT00-OT10, U. Chicago placed four times as many SCOTUS clerks per capita as NYU (Leiter's rankings are not ordered by per capita placement, but his reasons for not doing so seem silly to me).

The thing is, you have to divide Leiter's per capita stats by ten to get the approximate percent of each school's class that goes on to clerk on the Supreme Court. Harvard's ten-year per capita rate is .18, so one would expect it to place 1.8% of its class on the Court each year. At U. Chicago, that rate is 1.7%; at NYU, 0.4%. While Chicago's rate is substantially higher, I do not think it would be rational for you to make any kind of decision on that ground. By way of example, if you wanted to live close to New York, you would not pick Phoenix over Los Angeles because it is closer. Both are so remote that proximity becomes meaningless.

A better guide would be COA placement rates, since a far higher percent of each school's class goes on to those clerkships. My sense is that NYU is edging Chicago out in COA placement these days -- particularly on the Second Circuit. A quick glance at recent hiring data (LinkRemoved) shows why: NYU has placed at least fifty five clerks on the Second Circuit since 2007. Chicago, by my data, has placed only one. Things are less lopsided on other prominent circuits. NYU leads on the D.C. Circuit, thirty three to fifteen since 2004, but Chicago leads twenty seven to nineteen on the Ninth and twenty one to three on the Chicago-based Seventh. This data is largely self-reported, and so subject to inaccuracies/incompleteness concerns. Still, I think it shows that NYU has a slight edge at the COA level.

I am still not sure I would ever pick a school on that basis, though. NYU and Chicago are very different institutions, and the cities they are located in differ significantly as well. You ought to decide on those factors, as well as biglaw/long-term job placement, since you are a big underdog to land a high-end clerkship from either school. In other words, choose on the criteria that you know will affect you.


In my opinion, Chicago's future prospects for SCOTUS placement have gone down. unless it can rekindle a better relationship with Justice Scalia, Chicago doesn't really have any tie-ins to any of the newly-appointed judges (aside from Kagan, and Kagan didn't leave UChicago on particularly good terms).

Anyway, as GTL said, picking based on COA/SCOTUS chances is a pretty bad idea.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby theaccidentalclerk » Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:24 am

A better guide would be COA placement rates, since a far higher percent of each school's class goes on to those clerkships. My sense is that NYU is edging Chicago out in COA placement these days -- particularly on the Second Circuit. A quick glance at recent hiring data shows why: NYU has placed at least fifty five clerks on the Second Circuit since 2007. Chicago, by my data, has placed only one. Things are less lopsided on other prominent circuits. NYU leads on the D.C. Circuit, thirty three to fifteen since 2004, but Chicago leads twenty seven to nineteen on the Ninth and twenty one to three on the Chicago-based Seventh. This data is largely self-reported, and so subject to inaccuracies/incompleteness concerns. Still, I think it shows that NYU has a slight edge at the COA level.


I'll note that using these numbers, Chicago does significantly better on a per capita basis. That's 110 NYU clerks and 66 Chicago clerks, but the class sizes are approximate 450 and 190. Dividing by the class sizes, you get .244 and .347. So Chicago students are about 42% more likely to get a COA clerkship on a per capita basis.

I have no idea whether these numbers are even remotely representative of the true clerkship placement numbers, by the way, both in the given circuits and outside. Also, in my experience, NYU students seem somewhat more likely to clerk at the USDC level, especially in the more competitive districts (SDNY and DDC). There's a bit of a "COA or bust" mentality for many Chicago students.


ETA: I was also curious about a few other circuits that I have experience with/friends who clerked at -- 5th, 8th and 10th. Based on GTL's (very helpful, even if incomplete) numbers, in these three circuits, there are 29 Chicago clerks, and nine NYU clerks. Throwing those into the 2/7/9/DC numbers, that brings us to 119 NYU clerks, and 95 Chicago clerks. Normalizing for class size, and you get .264 and .500.

Though now I'm curious about the First and Fourth, where I'd suspect more NYU students. Let's see... Either eight or nine NYU clerks (one was 2006-07; not sure if GTL is including that), to none for Chicago. So adding those in, you get 127 NYU and 95 Chicago. Normalizing... .282 and the .500.

So, I think the bottom line here is that there are going to be about 30-40% more NYU clerks on a raw basis, but 50%+ (and probably more like 70%) more Chicago clerks on a per capita basis.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:17 pm

theaccidentalclerk wrote:
A better guide would be COA placement rates, since a far higher percent of each school's class goes on to those clerkships. My sense is that NYU is edging Chicago out in COA placement these days -- particularly on the Second Circuit. A quick glance at recent hiring data shows why: NYU has placed at least fifty five clerks on the Second Circuit since 2007. Chicago, by my data, has placed only one. Things are less lopsided on other prominent circuits. NYU leads on the D.C. Circuit, thirty three to fifteen since 2004, but Chicago leads twenty seven to nineteen on the Ninth and twenty one to three on the Chicago-based Seventh. This data is largely self-reported, and so subject to inaccuracies/incompleteness concerns. Still, I think it shows that NYU has a slight edge at the COA level.


I'll note that using these numbers, Chicago does significantly better on a per capita basis. That's 110 NYU clerks and 66 Chicago clerks, but the class sizes are approximate 450 and 190. Dividing by the class sizes, you get .244 and .347. So Chicago students are about 42% more likely to get a COA clerkship on a per capita basis.

I have no idea whether these numbers are even remotely representative of the true clerkship placement numbers, by the way, both in the given circuits and outside. Also, in my experience, NYU students seem somewhat more likely to clerk at the USDC level, especially in the more competitive districts (SDNY and DDC). There's a bit of a "COA or bust" mentality for many Chicago students.


ETA: I was also curious about a few other circuits that I have experience with/friends who clerked at -- 5th, 8th and 10th. Based on GTL's (very helpful, even if incomplete) numbers, in these three circuits, there are 29 Chicago clerks, and nine NYU clerks. Throwing those into the 2/7/9/DC numbers, that brings us to 119 NYU clerks, and 95 Chicago clerks. Normalizing for class size, and you get .264 and .500.

Though now I'm curious about the First and Fourth, where I'd suspect more NYU students. Let's see... Either eight or nine NYU clerks (one was 2006-07; not sure if GTL is including that), to none for Chicago. So adding those in, you get 127 NYU and 95 Chicago. Normalizing... .282 and the .500.

So, I think the bottom line here is that there are going to be about 30-40% more NYU clerks on a raw basis, but 50%+ (and probably more like 70%) more Chicago clerks on a per capita basis.


I think your math is a bit off however. You're looking at # of clerks in a 5 year period but you are normalizing it to the yearly class size. It seems that you should be either taking the total # of clerks in the 5 year period and averaging it to per year to compare to class size, or compare the total # of clerks in the 5 year period to the total number of graduates in the 5 year period.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby theaccidentalclerk » Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:29 pm

I think your math is a bit off however. You're looking at # of clerks in a 5 year period but you are normalizing it to the yearly class size. It seems that you should be either taking the total # of clerks in the 5 year period and averaging it to per year to compare to class size, or compare the total # of clerks in the 5 year period to the total number of graduates in the 5 year period.


It doesn't matter for purposes of comparing NYU and Chicago per capita rates, assuming that class sizes stay relatively constant. It would, of course, matter if I was trying to say that X% of a class clerks based on these numbers -- but I'm not. Just trying to compare the schools.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:52 pm

I have the option to P/F a class (2L here) with a pretty tight curve- however, because I'm trying to "lock in" my GPA in preparation for clerkships, I've already taken most of my other classes this semester for no grade. Would a judge look down upon a transcript that has mostly P/F classes second semester 2L (if I P/F this one then I'd only have one letter grade this entire semester) and therefore should risk the class for a grade, or does really just the GPA itself matter, in which case it doesn't matter how many classes I've taken P/F?

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Citizen Genet » Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:55 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I have the option to P/F a class (2L here) with a pretty tight curve- however, because I'm trying to "lock in" my GPA in preparation for clerkships, I've already taken most of my other classes this semester for no grade. Would a judge look down upon a transcript that has mostly P/F classes second semester 2L (if I P/F this one then I'd only have one letter grade this entire semester) and therefore should risk the class for a grade, or does really just the GPA itself matter, in which case it doesn't matter how many classes I've taken P/F?


My perception (a non-clerk individual who is applying, like you) is this. You're looking at a third-level material when you get into what classes you've taken. Biggest priority are the first-level things that get you pulled out of the stack - school, GPA, Law Review, recommendations, intangible connection. Then you're writing sample. THEN, depending on the judge, they'll start looking at other things (classes taken, performance in specific courses, Moot Court). In other words, if you think it's going to hurt your GPA, then pass/fail it and risk losing a tie-breaker to someone while still getting pulled out. If you think you can get the good grade and avoid being the applicant who only took one graded course, then take on the exam.

Obviously any specific judge can buck that leveling I created, but it's my impression that's the mode.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby traydeuce » Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:06 am

Citizen Genet wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I have the option to P/F a class (2L here) with a pretty tight curve- however, because I'm trying to "lock in" my GPA in preparation for clerkships, I've already taken most of my other classes this semester for no grade. Would a judge look down upon a transcript that has mostly P/F classes second semester 2L (if I P/F this one then I'd only have one letter grade this entire semester) and therefore should risk the class for a grade, or does really just the GPA itself matter, in which case it doesn't matter how many classes I've taken P/F?


My perception (a non-clerk individual who is applying, like you) is this. You're looking at a third-level material when you get into what classes you've taken. Biggest priority are the first-level things that get you pulled out of the stack - school, GPA, Law Review, recommendations, intangible connection. Then you're writing sample. THEN, depending on the judge, they'll start looking at other things (classes taken, performance in specific courses, Moot Court). In other words, if you think it's going to hurt your GPA, then pass/fail it and risk losing a tie-breaker to someone while still getting pulled out. If you think you can get the good grade and avoid being the applicant who only took one graded course, then take on the exam.

Obviously any specific judge can buck that leveling I created, but it's my impression that's the mode.


Your premises are right - "you're looking at a third-level material when you get into what classes you've taken" - but your conclusion doesn't follow from your premises because P/F is not a question of "what classes you've taken." P/F is grades. I'm only an incoming clerk, albeit someone who's sat in on this process during my COA internships, but it's my educated guess that someone with a second semester comprised mostly of P/F classes won't get interviews at all, unless he gets absolutely dynamite calls from connected recommenders. What does his "locked in" GPA even mean if he's taken a semester off the table? It insults the intelligence of the people who read his apps, like we won't notice that he went into GPA-protect mode. It'd be one thing if he took a class in something that (a) is outside the realm of what clerks normally do, e.g. tax law in most jurisdictions, and (b) was something he can say in the interviews isn't something he's the greatest at but that he wanted to try out of interest. That's how you spin a single pass-fail, and mind you that you can't even go and pass/fail just one course if it's something like fed courts. But doing that with most of a semester just looks awful, like he either decided to take a semester off or isn't confident enough in his abilities to expose his GPA to the risk of a few 2L classes, and if a clerkship adviser told him that was okay, they should probably be fired. (As should the adviser mentioned upthread who told an applicant to hold off calls until after he gets interviews. That's how you get interviews.) If he didn't ask anyone whether that was a good idea until now, he seriously messed up.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby TTTLS » Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:20 am

Summer is coming. Time to clog up the OSCAR server.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:59 pm

I realize this will be all over the place, but any idea what the norm is for the number of applicants a judge will bring in to interview for each position? Meaning that if a judge is hiring four clerks and has invited you in for an interview, how many applicants would you be competing against at this stage? Again, I realize this will vary (even greatly) from judge to judge.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Citizen Genet » Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:50 pm

G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
Citizen Genet wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I have the option to P/F a class (2L here) with a pretty tight curve- however, because I'm trying to "lock in" my GPA in preparation for clerkships, I've already taken most of my other classes this semester for no grade. Would a judge look down upon a transcript that has mostly P/F classes second semester 2L (if I P/F this one then I'd only have one letter grade this entire semester) and therefore should risk the class for a grade, or does really just the GPA itself matter, in which case it doesn't matter how many classes I've taken P/F?


My perception (a non-clerk individual who is applying, like you) is this. You're looking at a third-level material when you get into what classes you've taken. Biggest priority are the first-level things that get you pulled out of the stack - school, GPA, Law Review, recommendations, intangible connection. Then you're writing sample. THEN, depending on the judge, they'll start looking at other things (classes taken, performance in specific courses, Moot Court). In other words, if you think it's going to hurt your GPA, then pass/fail it and risk losing a tie-breaker to someone while still getting pulled out. If you think you can get the good grade and avoid being the applicant who only took one graded course, then take on the exam.

Obviously any specific judge can buck that leveling I created, but it's my impression that's the mode.

I disagree. By and large, topline GPA matters most. But the scenario described above seems to present an exception, given the dearth of actual grades the poster has. I am assuming the anonymous poster goes to Yale, where students rack up a huge volume of P/F, CR, and other exotic forms of non-grades. Judges hate this. If an applicant has a reasonably clear track record -- i.e., at least three actual graded classes every semester -- then a few P/Fs here and there will not hurt. But a transcript with only a few Hs, or As, or HHs, or whatever leaves the reader guessing how the applicant stacks up. A 4.0 will do you no good if it is based on 5 grades or something silly like that. The same is true with a larger number of grades, if many of them come in nonsense classes like "Feelings and the Law" or "Reading Group - Coloring Books." For this reason, I would not P/F the class in anon's situation.

When I read applications last year, the first thing we did was glance at the applicant's transcript; we tended to skip past the resume, the cover letter, and everything else. If the transcript was not up to snuff, we spent very little time with the other parts. It is true that we did not look too closely at specific classes until we had decided to really scrutinize an application (something we did only a small fraction of the time). But a semester with all or virtually all P/F grades would be a red flag even prior to that.

Also, in my experience the writing sample is not necessarily the second thing clerks & judges look at. We ignored the writing sample entirely if the school/GPA/LR criteria were not met, and usually skimmed the writing samples of borderline candidates if we read them at all. The only samples we really scrutinized closely were those belonging to applicants on the interview shortlist.


Good to know! Glad to have GTL and treyduece here and very much appreciate the follow up posts.

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Contacting chambers when in the area

Postby Anonymous User » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:19 am

I have an application for the 2013 term pending with a judge, and I will be in the judge's city in a month or so. Would it be acceptable form to call chambers and let them know that I will be in the area and ask if the judge would be interested in meeting while I'm in town? Has anyone here met with success using this strategy?

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby ndirish2010 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:08 pm

Hey GTL, have you had success with your idea of creating a database for clerkships to determine who is going off plan? Haven't been on the boards for a while but I am starting to apply for 2013 now.

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Tangerine Gleam » Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:16 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:Hey GTL, have you had success with your idea of creating a database for clerkships to determine who is going off plan? Haven't been on the boards for a while but I am starting to apply for 2013 now.


--LinkRemoved--

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 01, 2012 9:42 pm

G. T. L. Rev. wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I have an application for the 2013 term pending with a judge, and I will be in the judge's city in a month or so. Would it be acceptable form to call chambers and let them know that I will be in the area and ask if the judge would be interested in meeting while I'm in town?

Unless you have another interview in that courthouse (or reasonably nearby), no. Clerkship applications are very much a "don't call us, we'll call you" affair -- particularly off-plan.


Is it possible to leverage one interview into a second if the judges are in the same city, but I am already living/working in that city? (i.e. interviewing with that other judge at another time wouldn't require an additional "trip.")

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 01, 2012 10:18 pm

Federalist Society President -- include or exclude from resumes in applications to less conservative judges? (Obviously it stays in for the conservative ones)

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 01, 2012 10:34 pm

Any tips for SAs? I'm pretty sure a clerkship won't land in my lap, but if your associate or partner mentor has clerked, is it unusual for you to get an interview through that connection?

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 01, 2012 11:11 pm

A couple people contacted judges (directly spoke to them) within the last week for me. I haven't heard from any of the judges, and the people helping me think that's a really bad sign. According to conventional wisdom/their clerks, a couple of these judges are "on plan" (although I know a lot of judges in this district say they're on plan when they're really not). Does it sound like I'm out of luck? Someone who's been a clerk might be helpful here- might the supposedly on-plan judges have just noted it for a future date, or would I have probably heard by now?

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Re: Clerks, taking questions for a bit

Postby Anonymous User » Tue May 01, 2012 11:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Any tips for SAs? I'm pretty sure a clerkship won't land in my lap, but if your associate or partner mentor has clerked, is it unusual for you to get an interview through that connection?


My friend got a pretty great clerkship largely through the recommendation of senior associate who was a former clerk. This obviously varies - some people will be willing to go to bat for SAs and some won't, and similarly some judges care what their former clerks have to say and some don't. But it happens.

I don't know if there are any special tips though. Do really good work, have a positive attitude, and try to get along with the people you work with. Regardless of whether you're hoping for someone to help you out with clerkships, SAs are not just about doing enough to safely get an offer. Without going crazy, it's worthwhile to try hard to do a good job, either because it will help your reputation when you come back (read: better work), and because you never know who might know someone.

To the degree that your firm is clerk-friendly (as most are), I would also make it known (tactfully) that you are thinking about clerkships. Some people may volunteer their help - whether that means making a call or even if it's just giving you advice.




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