Re: Clerks Taking Questions
Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:52 pm
Just accepted a clerkship offer to start in Fall 2019. Any general advice on approaching the next year and a half (preparation, maintaining contact with chambers, etc.)?
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http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=286648ramadar wrote:Just accepted a clerkship offer to start in Fall 2019. Any general advice on approaching the next year and a half (preparation, maintaining contact with chambers, etc.)?
No, don't schedule anything. In fact, most likely, the professor won't speak directly with the judge. Rather, the JA or clerk who answers the phone will let the judge know that the professor called, will pull your application to show the judge, and the judge can call back if he/she desires. The real benefit of a professor calling is the fact that your application is pulled from a pile of many hundreds of applications and put in front of the judge.B4L wrote:How does a professor cold-calling judges work?
For background, I have one professor I am very close with. I was a teaching assistant for them, then a research assistant, and also took several classes with them. We have a great relationship and they have served as a stellar recommender in the past. But even with that, I think it's odd to ask them to cold-call judges for me. I am in NYC and looking to apply to clerkships in Ohio, Wisconsin, and Michigan--so this would be the professor cold calling, not connecting me with their network or someone they actually know.
So is requesting a professor cold-call judges normal and expected if you are applying to clerkships?
If I do this, should I just give the professor's secretary a list of chambers and contact info so they can work through the list? Or do I reach out to chambers first and try to schedule something for the professor?
I actually had this same intuition when I was applying for clerkships, and I was advised by a professor I trust not to do it, because there is a slight risk that a judge may forward your resume to another judge (or talk about you as a candidate) and realize that you have two versions. Further, having a politically balanced resume would probably be a big plus for a lot of judges (even the most political of judges often don't view themselves as partisan hacks).Anonymous User wrote:I have a somewhat political resume, but it is bipartisan. I worked in the state/federal legislature for BOTH SIDES before law school. Also, I am in FedSoc but did some legal internships in law school that could be considered on the center-left side of things. I have a strong resume with lots of experience that I can tilt to be left or right. I was thinking I would just give all the judges nominated by R presidents my conservative resume, then soften it up and give the center-left version to judges nominated by a D president. I would be changing about 5% of my resume that could lightly signal politics.
Is this crazy?
If you're applying to judges where your firm is, and the judge knows somebody at the firm he trusts (maybe a former clerk), the judge may well call his contact at the firm even if the person isn't mentioned the application. This isn't far fetched.Laser Lady wrote:If you don't use someone at your office as a reference/recommender, I don't see any good reason why a judge or clerk would contact your employer. Hiring already takes enough time just looking at the applications; why would a judge or clerk want to give themselves more work to do by looking up and contacting random people who might be connected to an applicant?
BlackAndOrange84 wrote:If you're applying to judges where your firm is, and the judge knows somebody at the firm he trusts (maybe a former clerk), the judge may well call his contact at the firm even if the person isn't mentioned the application. This isn't far fetched.Laser Lady wrote:If you don't use someone at your office as a reference/recommender, I don't see any good reason why a judge or clerk would contact your employer. Hiring already takes enough time just looking at the applications; why would a judge or clerk want to give themselves more work to do by looking up and contacting random people who might be connected to an applicant?
It's hard to say. One of my judges calls before inviting, which may be common among judges that don't do lots of interviews (more screening on the front end rather than after).Anonymous User wrote:BlackAndOrange84 wrote:If you're applying to judges where your firm is, and the judge knows somebody at the firm he trusts (maybe a former clerk), the judge may well call his contact at the firm even if the person isn't mentioned the application. This isn't far fetched.Laser Lady wrote:If you don't use someone at your office as a reference/recommender, I don't see any good reason why a judge or clerk would contact your employer. Hiring already takes enough time just looking at the applications; why would a judge or clerk want to give themselves more work to do by looking up and contacting random people who might be connected to an applicant?
Gah, hate this. I am applying out of state, but it still worries me. Judges would at least interview you before going around calling, right?
I would much rather explain "please don't contact anyone without telling me" in person rather than in a cover letter.
So the judge would just call up the people who were recommenders? Or you mean the judge would reach out to any office he was familiar with on the resume?BlackAndOrange84 wrote:It's hard to say. One of my judges calls before inviting, which may be common among judges that don't do lots of interviews (more screening on the front end rather than after).Anonymous User wrote:BlackAndOrange84 wrote:If you're applying to judges where your firm is, and the judge knows somebody at the firm he trusts (maybe a former clerk), the judge may well call his contact at the firm even if the person isn't mentioned the application. This isn't far fetched.Laser Lady wrote:If you don't use someone at your office as a reference/recommender, I don't see any good reason why a judge or clerk would contact your employer. Hiring already takes enough time just looking at the applications; why would a judge or clerk want to give themselves more work to do by looking up and contacting random people who might be connected to an applicant?
Gah, hate this. I am applying out of state, but it still worries me. Judges would at least interview you before going around calling, right?
I would much rather explain "please don't contact anyone without telling me" in person rather than in a cover letter.
First question: not necessarily, no—that was the point of my first post. A judge might pick up the phone to call someone at a school or office you worked at who is not a recommender or otherwise mentioned in your application. Second question: no, the judge isn't going to call up an office out of the blue, but if there's someone there he knows and trusts that judge might pick up the phone to find out if his friend/contact knows you and what they think of you.Anonymous User wrote:So the judge would just call up the people who were recommenders? Or you mean the judge would reach out to any office he was familiar with on the resume?BlackAndOrange84 wrote:It's hard to say. One of my judges calls before inviting, which may be common among judges that don't do lots of interviews (more screening on the front end rather than after).Anonymous User wrote:BlackAndOrange84 wrote:If you're applying to judges where your firm is, and the judge knows somebody at the firm he trusts (maybe a former clerk), the judge may well call his contact at the firm even if the person isn't mentioned the application. This isn't far fetched.Laser Lady wrote:If you don't use someone at your office as a reference/recommender, I don't see any good reason why a judge or clerk would contact your employer. Hiring already takes enough time just looking at the applications; why would a judge or clerk want to give themselves more work to do by looking up and contacting random people who might be connected to an applicant?
Gah, hate this. I am applying out of state, but it still worries me. Judges would at least interview you before going around calling, right?
I would much rather explain "please don't contact anyone without telling me" in person rather than in a cover letter.
Also look into newly appointed Trump judges. They'll probably be scrambling for clerks, I know Nalbandian was looking for some for this year and he hasn't even been confirmed yetGoneSouth wrote:Most circuit court judges have probably hired for 2019, but there are some who hire later each year (Thomas on CA9 is one that comes to mind), and I'd guess there might be some senior judges who haven't hired yet either. Check with your clerkship office.
I wouldn't ask for feedback unless the clerk is someone you already knew before applying. Mostly there's going to be very little they can say, because the reality is likely "the judge just clicked with the other person better." When they pick you for an interview they like your qualifications on paper, but at the interview they have to like you and be able to see themselves working with you - it's often much more about personality. It's unlikely you're doing anything wrong so much as you're just not the right personal fit, compared to a different candidate. Obviously there are better and worse ways to interview, but you can't figure out how to change your personality for an hour and you don't know what you should try to be like because you don't know what the judge is looking for. One judge might be all about a kind of bro-y sports-obsessed chambers culture, another might be more like a medieval monk, some judges want eager acolytes, some judges want people who need very little care and feeding, etc. etc.Anonymous User wrote:I’ve had three clerkship interviews, with another coming up this Monday. It’s too late for this next interview, but would it be weird to reach out to one of the clerks who conducted a previous interview to find out what I’m doing wrong? If they (or the judge) like me enough to request an interview, it must be something about me personally, or something I’m doing/not doing. Is it bad form to ask for feedback? They’ll never see me again, so there would be no reason for them to not be honest. I may have already wasted my chances, but just in case I do get a fifth interview, is it a good idea?
If one of the clerks you met with gave you contact info and invited you to reach out with any questions, then I'd say go for it. Btw, do you actually know you've been rejected from those interviews? If you just haven't heard back and it's been a while, I wouldn't jump the gun and assume you're out of the running.Anonymous User wrote:I’ve had three clerkship interviews, with another coming up this Monday. It’s too late for this next interview, but would it be weird to reach out to one of the clerks who conducted a previous interview to find out what I’m doing wrong? If they (or the judge) like me enough to request an interview, it must be something about me personally, or something I’m doing/not doing. Is it bad form to ask for feedback? They’ll never see me again, so there would be no reason for them to not be honest. I may have already wasted my chances, but just in case I do get a fifth interview, is it a good idea?
Yeah, definitely rejections. I received letters from all three. From one of the clerks of the first judge I interviewed with, I also received a nice personal email saying that she had lobbied for me, but the judge had decided to go in a different direction. There wasn’t really any “feel free to keep in touch” invitation, though. Maybe I’ll have better luck Monday. Thanks guys!BlackAndOrange84 wrote:If one of the clerks you met with gave you contact info and invited you to reach out with any questions, then I'd say go for it. Btw, do you actually know you've been rejected from those interviews? If you just haven't heard back and it's been a while, I wouldn't jump the gun and assume you're out of the running.Anonymous User wrote:I’ve had three clerkship interviews, with another coming up this Monday. It’s too late for this next interview, but would it be weird to reach out to one of the clerks who conducted a previous interview to find out what I’m doing wrong? If they (or the judge) like me enough to request an interview, it must be something about me personally, or something I’m doing/not doing. Is it bad form to ask for feedback? They’ll never see me again, so there would be no reason for them to not be honest. I may have already wasted my chances, but just in case I do get a fifth interview, is it a good idea?
I don't think it could hurt to reach out to the clerk that emailed you.Anonymous User wrote:Yeah, definitely rejections. I received letters from all three. From one of the clerks of the first judge I interviewed with, I also received a nice personal email saying that she had lobbied for me, but the judge had decided to go in a different direction. There wasn’t really any “feel free to keep in touch” invitation, though. Maybe I’ll have better luck Monday. Thanks guys!BlackAndOrange84 wrote:If one of the clerks you met with gave you contact info and invited you to reach out with any questions, then I'd say go for it. Btw, do you actually know you've been rejected from those interviews? If you just haven't heard back and it's been a while, I wouldn't jump the gun and assume you're out of the running.Anonymous User wrote:I’ve had three clerkship interviews, with another coming up this Monday. It’s too late for this next interview, but would it be weird to reach out to one of the clerks who conducted a previous interview to find out what I’m doing wrong? If they (or the judge) like me enough to request an interview, it must be something about me personally, or something I’m doing/not doing. Is it bad form to ask for feedback? They’ll never see me again, so there would be no reason for them to not be honest. I may have already wasted my chances, but just in case I do get a fifth interview, is it a good idea?