C/o 2015 kickin ass, takin names: a declaration of optimism Forum

[woeisme]

JD recruiter ... a BLS admissions employee?

[JDrecruiter]

Law school is not for everyone, but for those who choose to attend there are opportunities and the market is not as dismal as it is portrayed on TLS. If you choose to pursue a legal degree, I should hope you are optimistic and excited about the future. The entire economy has suffered and there are very few areas were a specialized degree guarantees employment, clearly including law. I do agree that law school is too expensive and there are too many law schools producing too many lawyers, but that does not mean that anyone who chooses to attend a TTT law school should be ridiculed. I'm not familiar with the day to day placement rates of BLS, but I can guarantee that there will be BLS graduates who get jobs that others envy.

I work with lawyers on a daily basis from TTT schools and T14 schools. The attitude of the person and their hunger to work hard and succeed can make a huge difference in landing a job. I'm not busy because there is a surplus of lawyers, I'm busy because law firms and corporations are hiring and continue to utilize recruiters to bring them candidates who meet their needs. The school matters, it makes a first impression, but the character and intelligence of the lawyer matters more.

I commend OP on his/her positive attitude and hope that energy converts into success in law school and in the future. Success is not measured by BIGLAW alone.

[Ludo!]

Law school is not for everyone, but for those who choose to attend there are opportunities and the market is not as dismal as it is portrayed on TLS. If you choose to pursue a legal degree, I should hope you are optimistic and excited about the future. The entire economy has suffered and there are very few areas were a specialized degree guarantees employment, clearly including law. I do agree that law school is too expensive and there are too many law schools producing too many lawyers, but that does not mean that anyone who chooses to attend a TTT law school should be ridiculed. I'm not familiar with the day to day placement rates of BLS, but I can guarantee that there will be BLS graduates who get jobs that others envy.

I work with lawyers on a daily basis from TTT schools and T14 schools. The attitude of the person and their hunger to work hard and succeed can make a huge difference in landing a job. I'm not busy because there is a surplus of lawyers, I'm busy because law firms and corporations are hiring and continue to utilize recruiters to bring them candidates who meet their needs. The school matters, it makes a first impression, but the character and intelligence of the lawyer matters more.

I commend OP on his/her positive attitude and hope that energy converts into success in law school and in the future. Success is not measured by BIGLAW alone.

Great job giving hope to every single naive 0l who thinks they are going to be the special snowflake that gets the "job that others envy" out of a place with abysmal placement stats like BLS!

[sunynp]

I think that OP and JDrecruiter are the same person or they are working together. They write the same style.

This is a setup to try to change the TLS story on legal employment!!

[JDrecruiter]

^Clearly if you read my post as giving hope to every single naive 0L then you are not reading correctly. People are entitled to be optimistic just as you are entitled to be pessimistic. There are special snowflakes at every school and most often, those special snowflakes started out with optimistic attitudes.

If you decide you want to go to law school you have to be prepared to work hard and to recognize that doing top quality work is the first step in your career. Every lawyer should also learn to market themselves - to lawyers within their firm and to new clients. That's a skill set and knowledge base I think law schools are only beginning to appreciate. 0Ls should stop being naive and recognize that it takes more than a T6 law school to succeed.

[sunynp]

^Clearly if you read my post as giving hope to every single naive 0L then you are not reading correctly. People are entitled to be optimistic just as you are entitled to be pessimistic. There are special snowflakes at every school and most often, those special snowflakes started out with optimistic attitudes.

If you decide you want to go to law school you have to be prepared to work hard and to recognize that doing top quality work is the first step in your career. Every lawyer should also learn to market themselves - to lawyers within their firm and to new clients. That's a skill set and knowledge base I think law schools are only beginning to appreciate. 0Ls should stop being naive and recognize that it takes more than a T6 law school to succeed.

So where are those stats on all those jobs the BLS students are getting? If you are a great recruiter, what do you advise the Dewey SAs to do now that their firm is almost certainly shutting down and there is no summer program?? And the incoming class of first years. And all the juniors who are getting left behind. Do your job and give some concrete advice. And I mean more than just sell yourself. They are screwed and you know it.

No one thinks that only T6 is enough to succeed, however, it is a much, much better shot than Brooklyn or Fordham. though most people seem to think Yale is enough on its own.

[Ded Precedent]

I'm right there with you OP! I've already purchased all of my 0L prep materials and I'm ready to start learning! HIGH FIVE!

[Ludo!]

I get that you think you're doing some noble thing here but seriously stop. 0ls don't need to hear shit like 'optimism is the first step to success!' They need a reality check. Employment stats out of BLS are garbage. Yes a T6 degree isn't a guarantee of success but it at least doesn't severely handicap your career before it even starts.

[sunynp]

I get that you think you're doing some noble thing here but seriously stop. 0ls don't need to hear shit like 'optimism is the first step to success!' They need a reality check. Employment stats out of BLS are garbage. Yes a T6 degree isn't a guarantee of success but it at least doesn't severely handicap your career before it even starts.

+1 I wonder if the mods can ban them for spreading false information? There must be something we can do other than calling them out every time they post.

This is bothering me a lot because of what i see happening in the Dewey thread. The disconnect is too extreme to deal with. Dewey is reality; this pie-in-the-sky stuff is just the way for the JDrecruiter to try to make money down the road. Go away!!

And by disconnect I mean people who thought with good reason that they were off to a great start to their careers at a top firm are now (for all intents and purposes) jobless. How does that sit with your optimism?

[JDrecruiter]

No recruiter's job is to act as an expert on BLS or on any other school. I've placed T3 and TTT lawyers and there's more to success as a lawyer than choice of law school. The worst lawyers I deal with are those who went to a top school and have an entitled attitude. The best are the lawyers who network, work hard and understand that putting out a perfect work product is the first step, but marketing yourself is what will ultimately lead to success.

I have no idea what's going on with Dewey. I work with firms/corporations that contact me to recruit lawyers, Dewey isn't one of them. Whatever is happening at Dewey is not a roadmap for the legal profession as a whole.

The economy has been rough on every sector of the workplace and the law has clearly been affected, but is beginning to recover. I choose to be optimistic.

[Ludo!]

No recruiter's job is to act as an expert on BLS or on any other school. I've placed T3 and TTT lawyers and there's more to success as a lawyer than choice of law school. The worst lawyers I deal with are those who went to a top school and have an entitled attitude. The best are the lawyers who network, work hard and understand that putting out a perfect work product is the first step, but marketing yourself is what will ultimately lead to success.

I have no idea what's going on with Dewey. I work with firms/corporations that contact me to recruit lawyers, Dewey isn't one of them. Whatever is happening at Dewey is not a roadmap for the legal profession as a whole.

The economy has been rough on every sector of the workplace and the law has clearly been affected, but is beginning to recover. I choose to be optimistic.

How many of the TTT lawyers you've worked with graduated recently and weren't at the top of their class?

[JDrecruiter]

There is more to success than choice of law school. There are only a few thousand lawyers each year who graduate from a t14. There are far more jobs than that nationwide. As in any profession, being at the top of your class has advantages - it's not only law school, employers want to see strong grades in every profession.

First impression is important, but you need to have the personality, attitude, attention to detail and skills to back that up. Beauty is in the eye of the employer. Many employers are not t14 themselves and in my experience, are not as focused on t14 as TLS would cause 0Ls to believe.

I don't keep statistics on the TTT vs. T6 I place, but when dealing with experienced lawyers, choice of law school does have impact but other factors become more important. I placed a TTT lawyer within the last week who was not at the top of his class - the employer liked this attorney's attitude and experience better than other candidates who went to better schools.

[Ded Precedent]

Obvious tax guy alt is obvious.

[romothesavior]

There is more to success than choice of law school. There are only a few thousand lawyers each year who graduate from a t14. There are far more jobs than that nationwide. As in any profession, being at the top of your class has advantages - it's not only law school, employers want to see strong grades in every profession.

JDR, I think we've all conceded this much. You're preaching to the choir. We'd all rather be #1 at Cardozo than bottom of the class at Cornell. Obviously school rank alone is not determinative; no one ever said it was. But so what? You have no idea how things are going to pan out before you go, so let's talk compare median from both. And that's why going to a higher ranked school makes so much more sense. Yes being a good lawyer depends on more than going to a good school, but let's focus on the things that a 0L can actually control right now. 0Ls should be focusing on putting themselves in the best position they can right now in order to optimize their career prospects.

I get what you're saying and what you're trying to do. Healthy optimism is fine. But it has no place in the actual decision-making process when it comes time to trying to pick a law school. The decision should be wholly informed by rational thought, empirical evidence, and heavy doses of reality (which is what TLS provides). Being optimistic as a 0L only leaves you overestimating your ability to perform in law school, and underestimating how bad job prospects are.

So yes, optimism can be healthy. But save it for when you are a law student/lawyer. The "rah rah law school" naivete of 0Ls, which OP embodies perfectly, is not something that should be encouraged by a licensed JD who graduated years ago. It is irresponsible for you to do so. That's what we're saying.

[Ludo!]

There is more to success than choice of law school. There are only a few thousand lawyers each year who graduate from a t14. There are far more jobs than that nationwide. As in any profession, being at the top of your class has advantages - it's not only law school, employers want to see strong grades in every profession.

First impression is important, but you need to have the personality, attitude, attention to detail and skills to back that up. Beauty is in the eye of the employer. Many employers are not t14 themselves and in my experience, are not as focused on t14 as TLS would cause 0Ls to believe.

I don't keep statistics on the TTT vs. T6 I place, but when dealing with experienced lawyers, choice of law school does have impact but other factors become more important. I placed a TTT lawyer within the last week who was not at the top of his class - the employer liked this attorney's attitude and experience better than other candidates who went to better schools.

You seem to keep missing the point. No one is saying there aren't students at TTT/TTTTs who would be or will be great lawyers. But the odds are stacked against them. If they don't get a non-doc-review legal job at graduation they're never going to have a chance to show anyone what great lawyers they could've been. Once they get that first job then their work product, experience, personality, skills etc will become more important than what law school they went to. But right now a shitload of grads from these school don't even get that first job. Just because you know some success stories doesn't change the stats.

[pixleprincess]

I don't know how this became a thread about:
1-people going to BLS at sticker since
a. I have a full scholarship and wouldnt consider or advise paying anything more than 8-10k/yr there
b. I might as easily end up in Fordham ($$) or Dozo (also full as of recently)

2-giving misguided advice to naive 0ls about choosing profession and/or a specific school
a. I just wanted to share my personal excitement, and seeing how unusual my pov is on a board I've read for 5 yrs ... I Was wondering if I was utterly alone. So, ok , I am basically am, luckily my IRL friends and colleagues feel differently
b. I specifically posted in tls 2015 to talk to people already decided and committed to law school, and most likely already decided on their placement for fall. No preaching, recruiting, misguiding- I assume everyone got here for their own reasons already did some kind of cost/gain analysis about their plans for next 3+ years

Also jdrec and I so are not the same person! Similar writing style? Pshhh... Obviously everyone missed my magical rabbit post. Honestly jdrec sounds kinda spamy, also his first site post was on this thread... A lil fishy. But I donno.. It's the Internet.. we all might really be a bunch of bored plumbers or hr reps playing out some law school couldawouldashoulda weird fantasy..

So I'll thank him for the encouragement, and Samara and woeisme for their "good luck, dummy" (obviously high praise from tls crowd... But for real, no snark, thanks for realizing I'm going in"eyes open")

[Ludo!]

FWIW I liked 1l year a lot. Best of luck to you OP

[pixleprincess]

I get that you think you're doing some noble thing here but seriously stop. 0ls don't need to hear shit like 'optimism is the first step to success!' They need a reality check. Employment stats out of BLS are garbage. Yes a T6 degree isn't a guarantee of success but it at least doesn't severely handicap your career before it even starts.

+1 I wonder if the mods can ban them for spreading false information? There must be something we can do other than calling them out every time they post.

This is bothering me a lot because of what i see happening in the Dewey thread. The disconnect is too extreme to deal with. Dewey is reality; this pie-in-the-sky stuff is just the way for the JDrecruiter to try to make money down the road. Go away!!

And by disconnect I mean people who thought with good reason that they were off to a great start to their careers at a top firm are now (for all intents and purposes) jobless. How does that sit with your optimism?

I'm not spreading false info, I'm sharing a person opinion- there's a qualitative difference between the two. Job market sucks. Yes. But maybe every one of my carreer prospects suck, like I asked originally what would propose I do that's safer? Better? A least I'm happy and motivated and grateful.

To ban people like me from posting is crazy. I've never even seen any "people like me" post. Overwhelming the party line is " go t14, be top of class, prepare for 3 yrs of misery anyway"

Funny that you mention Dewey.. A close family friend whose worked there for 10+ yrs recently left to another firm because of the things going down there.. (she found a new job before leaving no sweat but that's because she's *really* good, Columbia grad, law review all that..) I get it! Shit be crazy! The sky os falling! Legal market sucks!! Boo. But maybe if y'all knew as many struggling phds, accountants, teachers, and real estate brokers as I do, you wouldnt feel all special like you've got the monopoly on a tough career choice and difficult market.

[Ludo!]

Pretty sure we were both talking about jdrecruiter not you

[pixleprincess]

Pretty sure we were both talking about jdrecruiter not you

Ah. Gotcha. Just don't love how easy it is to get from "yay, im pursuing my passion" ---> "don't worry everyone, everything is fine, Yummy jobs for all hard workers"

[JDrecruiter]

In my completely separate attempt to insert some optimism, I realize that an apparent basic flaw in my position will soon be attacked by a zealous 0L-3L. I work with experienced lawyers - so some might say that I am out of touch with what is happening to immediate grads.

My goal was to share with people on TLS that the legal market, in general, is getting better. Brand new positions are being created which has the trickle down effect of opening positions for new grads. A few years ago, there was only decline in the legal market - lawyers were only losing their jobs and no new positions were created. There is now a bright and growing light, and in my many years of experience, the law school from which you graduate becomes less significant as you build your resume with experience. There are not "yummy jobs for all hard workers" - you would be naive to think so. The legal profession is rebuilding and those who have what it takes, of which law school choice is only a small part, will have more success finding a job than in recent years.

This is my personal opinion based upon years of experience. The sky is no longer falling in chunks.

[sunynp]

In my completely separate attempt to insert some optimism, I realize that an apparent basic flaw in my position will soon be attacked by a zealous 0L-3L. I work with experienced lawyers - so some might say that I am out of touch with what is happening to immediate grads.

My goal was to share with people on TLS that the legal market, in general, is getting better. Brand new positions are being created which has the trickle down effect of opening positions for new grads. A few years ago, there was only decline in the legal market - lawyers were only losing their jobs and no new positions were created. There is now a bright and growing light, and in my many years of experience, the law school from which you graduate becomes less significant as you build your resume with experience. There are not "yummy jobs for all hard workers" - you would be naive to think so. The legal profession is rebuilding and those who have what it takes, of which law school choice is only a small part, will have more success finding a job than in recent years.

This is my personal opinion based upon years of experience. The sky is no longer falling in chunks.

You do realize that if a person never gets the first job, you are never going to see them? There are tens of thousands of law grads that will never have a legal career. Those people (and the others who start out underemployed) will never move up. Other people have to take jobs where they work for free for a year or so after graduating, and then maybe they will have enough experience to find something. You really don't know anything about a person getting your first job from law school, as you admitted.

OP: you never explained what you want from law school, what your goals are,how much money you are investing into this enterprise, or why you are satisfied to start your professional career without trying for the best school you can get. Almost everyone is happy and excited when they start a new chapter in life. Everyone is excited when they get accepted to law school. The whole admissions process lends itself to excitement.

I don't think you are going in with your eyes open, but perhaps you are compared to most completely clueless 0Ls.

[JDrecruiter]

There are more new jobs today than there was a few years ago. Conditions are improving for new grads and experienced lawyers alike. That is a far better, and more accurate message, than the continued cries that the sky continues to fall.

[bartleby]

i can't believe there is a JD Recruiter prowling around here. i was just talking to my friend yesterday about his big law job and how after tax, he'd probably taking home $100k, living in nyc, with $200k debt...

for-profit law schools should be shut down and fined. they can ruin lives, sink people into ridiculous amounts of debt at a relatively young age. thank goodness for the interwebz... though i assume the market for for-profit law schools would be decreased significantly if it weren't for the internet. oh well.

[vpintz]

what the fuck did I just read?