Hastings Class of 2015

(housing, friendships, future exams, all things 2015)
User avatar
kapital98
Posts: 1188
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:58 pm

Re: Hastings Class of 2015

Postby kapital98 » Thu May 17, 2012 10:51 pm

magicdonquan wrote:Hey current Hastings students:

Can any of you provide some some solid advice regarding housing? Would it be reasonable to think that I could find a pretty cool 1 bedroom apartment/studio in SF for less or equal to the studio/efficiency units at the Tower? Thanks!


My roommate and I originally tried to find a place in SF to live. All of the places were just as expensive as The Tower, required a commute, did not come with the same benefits, etc...

We started looking around early June. It's possible you might get a better deal if you start looking sooner. We primarily used apartment search engines and newspaper classifieds.

The Tower is expensive... but so is all of SF. If you have a good reason for not wanting to live in the Tower (pets, location, not being around law students 24/7, etc) then it makes sense to look elsewhere. Otherwise, you may want to think long and hard before picking another place. It will be very difficult to find a less expensive apartment than the Tower's asking price.

hiima3L
Posts: 837
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:26 pm

Re: Hastings Class of 2015

Postby hiima3L » Fri May 18, 2012 1:47 am

apollo2015 wrote:
hiima3L wrote:3L at Hastings here. Feel free to ask anything and everything Hastings-related.


Who are some of the most enjoyable professors?


Though I can't vouch for all of these professors, the following are all considered awesome: Aviram, Keane (favorite professor I had), Marcus, Feldman, Levine, Bisharat, Wagstaffe, Prince, both the Faigmans (a married couple). With the exception of a few adjuncts, every professor I had at UCH was great. Also, the terrible prof:student ratio we have is totally irrelevant. Every professor has been entirely accessible.

hiima3L
Posts: 837
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:26 pm

Re: Hastings Class of 2015

Postby hiima3L » Fri May 18, 2012 1:53 am

prosen5808 wrote:[I fortunately have a job lined up. The vast, vast majority of my classmates do not, however, and have absolutely no idea what they're going to do aside from looking once they pass the bar. The only silver lining to this is I'm barely top 1/3, yet tons of my friends who did much better don't have anything lined up, including a few in the top 10%, so take that how you'd like.]

Would you say your friends who are top 10% don't have anything lined up because they aren't sure exactly what they want to do or do you think they have tried but being in the top 10% just isn't enough to land any sort of employment? This is scary!


It's a mix of a lot of things, but the first and foremost being how terrible the market is and specifically how saturated the Bay Area is. I don't think 0L, 1L, and 2Ls realize how god awful things are right now. It's not until 3L that it seems to sink in with most people.

I can think of a few friends in the top 10% who are gung-ho DA/PD types, and most DA and PA offices simply aren't hiring many students, if any at all. There are seasoned attorneys routinely volunteering at these places nowadays.

For the vast majority of my friends who are unemployed, it's because there aren't jobs. In all sincerity I would strongly encourage you not to go to Hastings at this point in time unless you won't be taking on a huge percentage of the costs (scholarships, parents, savings, etc.). It's an extremely risky decision right now.

hiima3L
Posts: 837
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:26 pm

Re: Hastings Class of 2015

Postby hiima3L » Fri May 18, 2012 1:55 am

magicdonquan wrote:Hey current Hastings students:

Can any of you provide some some solid advice regarding housing? Would it be reasonable to think that I could find a pretty cool 1 bedroom apartment/studio in SF for less or equal to the studio/efficiency units at the Tower? Thanks!


No. Here's why.

The tower is expensive and overpriced, but so is all of SF. The convenience of the tower is unbelievable, though.

User avatar
Lasers
Posts: 1576
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:46 pm

Re: Hastings Class of 2015

Postby Lasers » Fri May 18, 2012 5:29 am

hiima3L wrote:
apollo2015 wrote:
hiima3L wrote:3L at Hastings here. Feel free to ask anything and everything Hastings-related.


Who are some of the most enjoyable professors?


Though I can't vouch for all of these professors, the following are all considered awesome: Aviram, Keane (favorite professor I had), Marcus, Feldman, Levine, Bisharat, Wagstaffe, Prince, both the Faigmans (a married couple). With the exception of a few adjuncts, every professor I had at UCH was great. Also, the terrible prof:student ratio we have is totally irrelevant. Every professor has been entirely accessible.

levine is meh.

rappaport is awesome. rao as well. heard great things about diamond, too.
Last edited by Lasers on Fri May 18, 2012 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Lasers
Posts: 1576
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:46 pm

Re: Hastings Class of 2015

Postby Lasers » Fri May 18, 2012 5:31 am

hiima3L wrote:In all sincerity I would strongly encourage you not to go to Hastings at this point in time unless you won't be taking on a huge percentage of the costs (scholarships, parents, savings, etc.). It's an extremely risky decision right now.

hate to be a buzz kill, but that's sort of how i feel now, as well. the economy is pathetic. i hope the sf legal market improves and hastings' decision to cut class size will lead to better prospects for all future classes.

User avatar
ilovesf
Posts: 11743
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:20 pm

Re: Hastings Class of 2015

Postby ilovesf » Fri May 18, 2012 5:36 am

Lasers wrote:
hiima3L wrote:
apollo2015 wrote:
hiima3L wrote:3L at Hastings here. Feel free to ask anything and everything Hastings-related.


Who are some of the most enjoyable professors?


Though I can't vouch for all of these professors, the following are all considered awesome: Aviram, Keane (favorite professor I had), Marcus, Feldman, Levine, Bisharat, Wagstaffe, Prince, both the Faigmans (a married couple). With the exception of a few adjuncts, every professor I had at UCH was great. Also, the terrible prof:student ratio we have is totally irrelevant. Every professor has been entirely accessible.

levine is meh.

rappaport is awesome. rao as well. heard great things about diamond as well.

Diamond is pretty cool, I have him for crim now. Whether you have him or not though is a crapshoot because he only teaches one class that isn't 1L. He's an ok prof, but he's really friendly, approachable and really wants to help. My least favorite prof is leaving, so no need to warn about that. I heard Keane was awesome - I'm definitely going to wait to take Evidence with him whenever he teaches it if I can.

hiima3L
Posts: 837
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:26 pm

Re: Hastings Class of 2015

Postby hiima3L » Fri May 18, 2012 6:04 am

Lasers wrote:
hiima3L wrote:
apollo2015 wrote:
hiima3L wrote:3L at Hastings here. Feel free to ask anything and everything Hastings-related.


Who are some of the most enjoyable professors?


Though I can't vouch for all of these professors, the following are all considered awesome: Aviram, Keane (favorite professor I had), Marcus, Feldman, Levine, Bisharat, Wagstaffe, Prince, both the Faigmans (a married couple). With the exception of a few adjuncts, every professor I had at UCH was great. Also, the terrible prof:student ratio we have is totally irrelevant. Every professor has been entirely accessible.

levine is meh.

rappaport is awesome. rao as well. heard great things about diamond, too.


I forgot Diamond. I still want one of those TRAP shirts.

I've heard Rao's classes should be retitled "Stories About Me Clerking for Blackmun and Marshall."

User avatar
Lasers
Posts: 1576
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:46 pm

Re: Hastings Class of 2015

Postby Lasers » Fri May 18, 2012 6:15 am

hiima3L wrote:
I forgot Diamond. I still want one of those TRAP shirts.

I've heard Rao's classes should be retitled "Stories About Me Clerking for Blackmun and Marshall."

haha, rao certainly loves to bring her clerking experiences up, but i say she's awesome because she managed to make property not suck at all. she is definitely a bit awkward though.

User avatar
kapital98
Posts: 1188
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:58 pm

Re: Hastings Class of 2015

Postby kapital98 » Fri May 18, 2012 6:34 am

hiima3L wrote:
magicdonquan wrote:Hey current Hastings students:

Can any of you provide some some solid advice regarding housing? Would it be reasonable to think that I could find a pretty cool 1 bedroom apartment/studio in SF for less or equal to the studio/efficiency units at the Tower? Thanks!


No. Here's why.

The tower is expensive and overpriced, but so is all of SF. The convenience of the tower is unbelievable, though.


That's an amazing picture. Thanks.

User avatar
kapital98
Posts: 1188
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:58 pm

Re: Hastings Class of 2015

Postby kapital98 » Fri May 18, 2012 6:35 am

ilovesf wrote:Diamond is pretty cool, I have him for crim now. Whether you have him or not though is a crapshoot because he only teaches one class that isn't 1L. He's an ok prof, but he's really friendly, approachable and really wants to help. My least favorite prof is leaving, so no need to warn about that. I heard Keane was awesome - I'm definitely going to wait to take Evidence with him whenever he teaches it if I can.


Diamond is amazing. My favorite professor from 1L. He's definitely 'crazy genius'.

apollo2015
Posts: 359
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:13 am

Re: Hastings Class of 2015

Postby apollo2015 » Fri May 18, 2012 1:55 pm

kapital98 wrote:
hiima3L wrote:
magicdonquan wrote:Hey current Hastings students:

Can any of you provide some some solid advice regarding housing? Would it be reasonable to think that I could find a pretty cool 1 bedroom apartment/studio in SF for less or equal to the studio/efficiency units at the Tower? Thanks!


No. Here's why.

The tower is expensive and overpriced, but so is all of SF. The convenience of the tower is unbelievable, though.


That's an amazing picture. Thanks.


+1. If I ever get a job someday, I will keep that map in mind when looking for an apartment.

apollo2015
Posts: 359
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:13 am

Re: Hastings Class of 2015

Postby apollo2015 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:53 pm

The Tower housing assignments for the Fall are starting to get sent out. :-D

I'm excited, I wasn't expecting to hear back from them until late July.

hiima3L
Posts: 837
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:26 pm

Re: Hastings Class of 2015

Postby hiima3L » Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:40 pm

Dear future Hastings 1Ls,

Not one of you has PM'd me. I'm hoping you just glanced over my offer because I'm a 2012 grad and I assure you I can help you make your decision a better-informed one. By that I mean I hope I can convince you to not start at Hastings this fall.

I'm not trying to be a dick, but I am genuinely concerned about the decision you've made to go to Hastings and I'm trying to convince you not to go because it is almost certainly an objectively poor decision. Literally hundreds of current Hastings students and recent grads are truly regretting their decision of going to Hastings right now. I'm currently studying for the bar with at least a couple hundred (1/2 the class of 2012) who have no idea what they're going to do come July 26th when we're done with the bar.

Hastings is a great institution with great professors and you will no doubt get a fantastic legal education there. If that's all you're looking for, great, I assure you that you will not be disappointed. I have almost no complaints about my 3 years spent their in terms of the instruction I received (aside from the sorriest excuse of a visiting professor, but that happens everywhere), and neither do the vast, vast majority of my peers. In fact, I downright loved my time at Hastings. But if you're like the 99.9% of us who go to law school to enable us to pursue a career we think will be worthwhile and gainful, then you will almost certainly be disappointed.

But holy shit. How can you justify $150-180k in loans to go to a school with a 50% employment rate--a rate that includes a significant portion of $30-60k jobs? To put it frankly, that is a dumb decision. (Because it's relevant and I'm sure people will ask, PM if you want to know why it made financial sense for me. Also, yes, I have a job lined up that I am happy with, but I am in a tiny minority.) I'm trying to be as to-the-point and honest as I can because I don't think you quite understand just how god awful the legal market is right now, especially in the Bay Area. No one does until they strike out at OCI (which about 90% of you will do at Hastings) and they are pleading for a job--any job--their 2L summer. That's when the "oh shit, what have I done?" feeling sinks in.

So, please, PM me or ask me more questions. I am genuinely trying to help you out here because I don't think anyone understands what they're getting themselves into until it's too late. This is absolutely the case for dozens and dozens of Hastings friends of mine. Although Hastings has been great relative to other schools in terms of its transparency, it is light years away from as honest and blunt as I think it needs to be, so I'm trying to fill that gap.

monetaryeasing
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:56 pm

Re: Hastings Class of 2015

Postby monetaryeasing » Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:16 pm

Dear Class of 2015,
The previous poster is absolutely correct. Withdrawal, do it now, and run as fast as you can to anything else.

Going to Hastings in particular, and law school in general, right now is not just financial suicide, it's signing up to be a slave for 20 years, the best years you have ahead of you, to a debt burden so onerous that you will be excluded from a quality of life even enjoyed by the very poor. This is not a joke. I'm a rising 2L. I have friends who "did everything right" and have miserable lives and are in very bad shape.

You will not be able to buy a house; get a car loan; get married; have kids; have a social life (too poor). You cannot declare bankruptcy. If you become disabled, if you are capable of ANY gainful employment, your debt will not be discharged. If you are eligible for discharge, you will have a five year post-determination waiting period in which you cannot earn anything above the poverty level of your loans are reinstated. The government will garnish your check, including social security disability.

Right now the full cost (tuition + living expenses) doing it all on loans is $82,700. Tuition went up 15% year over last. And again, folks, that's the STICKER PRICE. There are no subsidized loans for graduate students any longer. You will be charged 6.5% and 8.5% interest on these loans; it capitalizes daily. This is insane. Insane. Not only that, but you are giving up three years during which you might have been working and earning money. Someone who scrubs toilets, during those three years, will in fact be significantly more wealthy than you with your extreme negative net worth. I swear to god, I would have run screaming from the place had I fully appreciated how destructive and hopeless the law school scam really is.

As active students we envy and admire and give 'props' to those who made the supremely intelligent decision to drop out.

User avatar
ilovesf
Posts: 11743
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:20 pm

Re: Hastings Class of 2015

Postby ilovesf » Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:37 am

FireNextTime wrote:Howdy. A just-finished 2l here. Happy to field Qs.

Actually, I'm a rising 2L, can I shoot you a PM about OCI advice?

apollo2015
Posts: 359
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:13 am

Re: Hastings Class of 2015

Postby apollo2015 » Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:47 pm

Yeah, we're all aware about how horrid the economy is these days, and how in the short term its nearly impossible to get any legitimate job. (At least, I would hope that we're all aware. Anyone who isn't should take a read through all of the MTal threads, both for MTal's discussions of the legal job market, and the other posters' discussions of the other job markets.) Its not a Hastings specific problem, nor is it an attorney specific problem. The ongoing outsourcing of middle class jobs to India, and working class jobs to China, coupled with the Bush era debt ballooning, and the Obama era refusal to pass a real jobs stimulus bill may indeed have doomed our generation. I'm surprised that I haven't heard anything about a Hastings Tea Party or an OccupyHastings group forming in reaction to this.

Are any of the professors or students at Hastings conducting research on how to fix the economy?

User avatar
ilovesf
Posts: 11743
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:20 pm

Re: Hastings Class of 2015

Postby ilovesf » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:04 am

When you guys are assigned classes, I will be happy to send anyone who PMs me my outlines. They will pretty much only be useful if we had the same professors. I had: Takacs, Mammen, Depoorter, Diamond (for Crim) and Knapp. I'm offering because today I was thinking about how helpful one of my TA's outline was, and how I wish more students had offered to send me theirs. I don't recommend only using it, but it could help you think about how to organize an outline, or if you don't like mine how to not organize it, and you can check your material against it.

User avatar
kapital98
Posts: 1188
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:58 pm

Re: Hastings Class of 2015

Postby kapital98 » Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:48 am

ilovesf wrote:When you guys are assigned classes, I will be happy to send anyone who PMs me my outlines. They will pretty much only be useful if we had the same professors. I had: Takacs, Mammen, Depoorter, Diamond (for Crim) and Knapp. I'm offering because today I was thinking about how helpful one of my TA's outline was, and how I wish more students had offered to send me theirs. I don't recommend only using it, but it could help you think about how to organize an outline, or if you don't like mine how to not organize it, and you can check your material against it.


I'll do the same thing. All of the same professors. Most of my outlines are short (10-20) pages. Just PM me.

monetaryeasing
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:56 pm

Re: Hastings Class of 2015

Postby monetaryeasing » Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:10 pm

apollo2015 wrote:Its not a Hastings specific problem, nor is it an attorney specific problem.



Wrong. http://www.nalp.org/uploads/Classof2011 ... ndings.pdf there's the link for the National Association of Legal Professionals findings on job outcomes for the class of 2011, 9 months out.

The unemployment rate for law graduates (and this means COMPLETE unemployment, no job whatsoever) is 15%. National unemployment is only 8.2% and CA only 11%. You're more likely to have no job whatsoever if you went to law school. And you're into debt up to your eyeballs if you're not a rich kid whose parents paid cash.

User avatar
kapital98
Posts: 1188
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:58 pm

Re: Hastings Class of 2015

Postby kapital98 » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:17 pm

monetaryeasing wrote:
apollo2015 wrote:Its not a Hastings specific problem, nor is it an attorney specific problem.



Wrong. http://www.nalp.org/uploads/Classof2011 ... ndings.pdf there's the link for the National Association of Legal Professionals findings on job outcomes for the class of 2011, 9 months out.

The unemployment rate for law graduates (and this means COMPLETE unemployment, no job whatsoever) is 15%. National unemployment is only 8.2% and CA only 11%. You're more likely to have no job whatsoever if you went to law school. And you're into debt up to your eyeballs if you're not a rich kid whose parents paid cash.


Your analysis is wrong. When looking at law school you're only looking at *new* graduates. When comparing this to the entire economy you're looking at the entire labor market (new+old). Historically, unemployment is highest among young people because they lack human capital (~15-30% unemployment depending on ethnicity.) This is even worse during a recession or jobless recovery.

Your analysis is comparing apples to dragonfruit. It has no merit.

FireNextTime
Posts: 59
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:01 am

Re: Hastings Class of 2015

Postby FireNextTime » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:31 pm

ilovesf wrote:
FireNextTime wrote:Howdy. A just-finished 2l here. Happy to field Qs.

Actually, I'm a rising 2L, can I shoot you a PM about OCI advice?

Sure thing.

monetaryeasing
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:56 pm

Re: Hastings Class of 2015

Postby monetaryeasing » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:55 pm

[/quote]
Your analysis is wrong. When looking at law school you're only looking at *new* graduates. When comparing this to the entire economy you're looking at the entire labor market (new+old). Historically, unemployment is highest among young people because they lack human capital (~15-30% unemployment depending on ethnicity.) This is even worse during a recession or jobless recovery.

Your analysis is comparing apples to dragonfruit. It has no merit.[/quote]

You're hilarious. You know what has no merit, your baseless ASSertion that employment stats improve, miraculously, after the 9-month mark. Show us, please. Data.

On a theoretical level your argument is just as inane. Let me get this straight. The problem is "lacking human capital" and that stems from no job experience, which, according to you, also miraculously dissipates after 9 months of having no employment in any capacity! haha.

But all that only highlights yet ANOTHER of your incredible, baseless assertions. For instance, that law school graduates are all people who had no prior work experience before going to law school, no "human capital". Law school graduates all necessarily have bachelor's degrees, and are supposed to be ahead of the curve in terms of finding employment; even more so with a graduate degree, right! So, why compare the general workforce (many of whom do not have college) degrees with highly educated sub-groups? If anything it makes me point stronger - why are those presumably more fit to compete with the general populace, yes including just-out-of-school general populace, doing so poorly?

Apparently, according to you also, there's nothing uniquely wrong with the legal profession; it's just the general bad job market! hahaha! Not even the shills at the ABA agree with you. Hastings itself cited OVER SUPPLY of lawyers in cutting its incoming class numbers. Right? Yeah.

The schools do not want to talk about the fact that if the jobs that are available in the economy are typically considered "suited" to those without higher education, you've actually made yourself more unemployable by getting a degree. Do you think McDonalds is hiring JD's to flip burgers? A degree can be a liability, and in the case of law school is a quantifiable liability.

You'll be fine, however, because you can go work for the admissions department at Hastings, which is only slightly more sleazy than flipping interest-only loans for Countrywide to some mexican immigrants who barely speak English. Keep fighting the good fight to fuck over the poor.

monetaryeasing
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:56 pm

Re: Hastings Class of 2015

Postby monetaryeasing » Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:17 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLW6hm-X ... e=youtu.be

there you go, worst numbers since 1975 and no recovery in sight

User avatar
kapital98
Posts: 1188
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:58 pm

Re: Hastings Class of 2015

Postby kapital98 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:36 am

monetaryeasing wrote:
kapital98 wrote:Your analysis is wrong. When looking at law school you're only looking at *new* graduates. When comparing this to the entire economy you're looking at the entire labor market (new+old). Historically, unemployment is highest among young people because they lack human capital (~15-30% unemployment depending on ethnicity.) This is even worse during a recession or jobless recovery.

Your analysis is comparing apples to dragonfruit. It has no merit.


You're hilarious. You know what has no merit, your baseless ASSertion that employment stats improve, miraculously, after the 9-month mark. Show us, please. Data.

On a theoretical level your argument is just as inane. Let me get this straight. The problem is "lacking human capital" and that stems from no job experience, which, according to you, also miraculously dissipates after 9 months of having no employment in any capacity! haha.

But all that only highlights yet ANOTHER of your incredible, baseless assertions. For instance, that law school graduates are all people who had no prior work experience before going to law school, no "human capital". Law school graduates all necessarily have bachelor's degrees, and are supposed to be ahead of the curve in terms of finding employment; even more so with a graduate degree, right! So, why compare the general workforce (many of whom do not have college) degrees with highly educated sub-groups? If anything it makes me point stronger - why are those presumably more fit to compete with the general populace, yes including just-out-of-school general populace, doing so poorly?

Apparently, according to you also, there's nothing uniquely wrong with the legal profession; it's just the general bad job market! hahaha! Not even the shills at the ABA agree with you. Hastings itself cited OVER SUPPLY of lawyers in cutting its incoming class numbers. Right? Yeah.

The schools do not want to talk about the fact that if the jobs that are available in the economy are typically considered "suited" to those without higher education, you've actually made yourself more unemployable by getting a degree. Do you think McDonalds is hiring JD's to flip burgers? A degree can be a liability, and in the case of law school is a quantifiable liability.

You'll be fine, however, because you can go work for the admissions department at Hastings, which is only slightly more sleazy than flipping interest-only loans for Countrywide to some mexican immigrants who barely speak English. Keep fighting the good fight to fuck over the poor.


Way to beg the question and create straw men. I was specifically saying your comparison of new law school graduates to the overall labor market is baseless. And because it is baseless the source you cited is unhelpful in making your point. Regardless of the merit of the study.

Then you make a bunch of assumption about my argument that I never made. My argument about new law graduates was not about human capital. It was focused on the general labor market. Once again, you do not understand the statistics and theory you are using.

You're coming off as a blowhard who doesn't understand what he's talking about. If you don't understand what you are talking about it becomes difficult to have an educated conversation. You're shouting hollow talking points without any real discussion.




Return to “TLS Class of 2015 Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest