Michigan Law Class of 2015

(housing, friendships, future exams, all things 2015)

Which ASW do you plan to attend?

March 15-17
35
34%
March 29-31
46
44%
Both
3
3%
Neither
20
19%
 
Total votes: 104

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Campagnolo
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Re: Michigan Law Class of 2015

Postby Campagnolo » Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:46 pm

When is the seat deposit deadline?

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I'm back! 8)

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JustE
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Re: Michigan Law Class of 2015

Postby JustE » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:33 pm

ScrabbleChamp wrote:
American_in_China wrote:Well my decision was 90% money, but I will say I loved ASW and I think Michigan is amazing; I feel totally comfortable going there next year. Would I be happier at Vandy? Probably, since I'm from Nashville and my two best friends are both there for the forseeable future. But Michigan really seemed amazing this past weekend. I'm looking forward to being there next year.
Go Blue!


I'm definitely not trying to dissuade you, but, if you think you will be happier at Vandy, why would you choose another school? As someone previously said, law school is stressful and you should choose based on fit... a happier you may be able to do better at Vandy and, depending on your aspirations, that may be the best place.


Ummmm... Maybe career goals? I'm from the South, love the South, and have every intention of returning to the South, but even I know the Michigan name will go a lot farther than Vandy's (even in the South).

Just my 2 cents. :D

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sanetruth
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Re: Michigan Law Class of 2015

Postby sanetruth » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:05 am

So the updated career services info is really interesting, and perhaps a little disheartening. Don't want to get into details myself, but this in particular is a pretty interesting and useful resource:

http://www.law.umich.edu/careers/classs ... stats.aspx

despite that the numbers decline from right to left almost without exception...

imjustjoking22
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Re: Michigan Law Class of 2015

Postby imjustjoking22 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:39 am

JustE wrote:
ScrabbleChamp wrote:
American_in_China wrote:Well my decision was 90% money, but I will say I loved ASW and I think Michigan is amazing; I feel totally comfortable going there next year. Would I be happier at Vandy? Probably, since I'm from Nashville and my two best friends are both there for the forseeable future. But Michigan really seemed amazing this past weekend. I'm looking forward to being there next year.
Go Blue!


I'm definitely not trying to dissuade you, but, if you think you will be happier at Vandy, why would you choose another school? As someone previously said, law school is stressful and you should choose based on fit... a happier you may be able to do better at Vandy and, depending on your aspirations, that may be the best place.


Ummmm... Maybe career goals? I'm from the South, love the South, and have every intention of returning to the South, but even I know the Michigan name will go a lot farther than Vandy's (even in the South).

Just my 2 cents. :D


Have you talked to both career services departments and all that? If you could be making connections where you wanted to work while in law school, it could definitely give you an edge. Sometimes it can be hard to move past rankings- but it seems to me like the vandy name might be just as strong or stronger than Michigan in the south- doesn't seem like mich places a lot into the south? Just food for thought, though I'm sure you've probably thought this over a ton already!

American_in_China
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Re: Michigan Law Class of 2015

Postby American_in_China » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:25 am

imjustjoking22 wrote:
JustE wrote:
ScrabbleChamp wrote:
American_in_China wrote:Well my decision was 90% money, but I will say I loved ASW and I think Michigan is amazing; I feel totally comfortable going there next year. Would I be happier at Vandy? Probably, since I'm from Nashville and my two best friends are both there for the forseeable future. But Michigan really seemed amazing this past weekend. I'm looking forward to being there next year.
Go Blue!


I'm definitely not trying to dissuade you, but, if you think you will be happier at Vandy, why would you choose another school? As someone previously said, law school is stressful and you should choose based on fit... a happier you may be able to do better at Vandy and, depending on your aspirations, that may be the best place.


Ummmm... Maybe career goals? I'm from the South, love the South, and have every intention of returning to the South, but even I know the Michigan name will go a lot farther than Vandy's (even in the South).

Just my 2 cents. :D


Have you talked to both career services departments and all that? If you could be making connections where you wanted to work while in law school, it could definitely give you an edge. Sometimes it can be hard to move past rankings- but it seems to me like the vandy name might be just as strong or stronger than Michigan in the south- doesn't seem like mich places a lot into the south? Just food for thought, though I'm sure you've probably thought this over a ton already!


Equal cost, already have strong legal connections (partners at 3 biglaw firms, 1 at high end boutique), so don't need to stay in state, every lawyer I've talked to here has said they hire top 25-33% from Vandy, but top 50% from Michigan. Besides, you all seem like a good bunch; I'm sure I'll make friends at Michigan. Only reason to stay is family and friends, and they're still family and friends after I lived 4 years in California, so I doubt 3 at MIchigan will be a big deal. The difference in happiness will be slight, at best. And Michigan will be a better atmosphere to work, since I won't have my non-law friends at home tempting me to go out too much.

Michigan is definitely the right choice. Not all choices are based on pure happiness. Definitely the right career choice.

imjustjoking22
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Re: Michigan Law Class of 2015

Postby imjustjoking22 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:49 am

American_in_China wrote:
imjustjoking22 wrote:
JustE wrote:
ScrabbleChamp wrote:I'm definitely not trying to dissuade you, but, if you think you will be happier at Vandy, why would you choose another school? As someone previously said, law school is stressful and you should choose based on fit... a happier you may be able to do better at Vandy and, depending on your aspirations, that may be the best place.


Ummmm... Maybe career goals? I'm from the South, love the South, and have every intention of returning to the South, but even I know the Michigan name will go a lot farther than Vandy's (even in the South).

Just my 2 cents. :D


Have you talked to both career services departments and all that? If you could be making connections where you wanted to work while in law school, it could definitely give you an edge. Sometimes it can be hard to move past rankings- but it seems to me like the vandy name might be just as strong or stronger than Michigan in the south- doesn't seem like mich places a lot into the south? Just food for thought, though I'm sure you've probably thought this over a ton already!


Equal cost, already have strong legal connections (partners at 3 biglaw firms, 1 at high end boutique), so don't need to stay in state, every lawyer I've talked to here has said they hire top 25-33% from Vandy, but top 50% from Michigan. Besides, you all seem like a good bunch; I'm sure I'll make friends at Michigan. Only reason to stay is family and friends, and they're still family and friends after I lived 4 years in California, so I doubt 3 at MIchigan will be a big deal. The difference in happiness will be slight, at best. And Michigan will be a better atmosphere to work, since I won't have my non-law friends at home tempting me to go out too much.

Michigan is definitely the right choice. Not all choices are based on pure happiness. Definitely the right career choice.


Sounds like a great choice then! Looking forward to braving the cold with you! Haha.

Also- still in china? If so, whereabouts? One of my closest friends is over there right now.

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crabcakes
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Re: Michigan Law Class of 2015

Postby crabcakes » Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:24 am

sanetruth wrote:So the updated career services info is really interesting, and perhaps a little disheartening. Don't want to get into details myself, but this in particular is a pretty interesting and useful resource:

http://www.law.umich.edu/careers/classs ... stats.aspx

despite that the numbers decline from right to left almost without exception...


:(

keg411
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Re: Michigan Law Class of 2015

Postby keg411 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:48 am

I don't think you can get more comprehensive then that employer list. Holy crap.
Would love to see this for other schools.

ETA: I also already know more people going to a lot of the bigger firms, and I barely know anyone in my class :lol:. I think this is pretty strong evidence that OCS fucked up that class up badly. I really feel bad for them.

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Entchen
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Re: Michigan Law Class of 2015

Postby Entchen » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:21 am

keg411 wrote:I don't think you can get more comprehensive then that employer list. Holy crap.
Would love to see this for other schools.

ETA: I also already know more people going to a lot of the bigger firms, and I barely know anyone in my class :lol:. I think this is pretty strong evidence that OCS fucked up that class up badly. I really feel bad for them.


This is my favorite part: Non-legal Employment.

*Actor, dentist's office, independent contractor, pharmacy, restaurant, sheep farmer, chief writer at Univision, startup, e-commerce consulting, Thomson Reuters, nonlaw university faculty position (2)

†Political campaign, bar owner, polo coach, test prep, elected state representative, technology/e-commerce, environmental conservation research, Westlaw, freelance writing

‡Political administration, insurance company, professional poker, sales, writing and editing consultant, community organizing

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thelaststraw05
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Re: Michigan Law Class of 2015

Postby thelaststraw05 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:28 am

Entchen wrote:This is my favorite part: Non-legal Employment.

*Actor, dentist's office, independent contractor, pharmacy, restaurant, sheep farmer, chief writer at Univision, startup, e-commerce consulting, Thomson Reuters, nonlaw university faculty position (2)

†Political campaign, bar owner, polo coach, test prep, elected state representative, technology/e-commerce, environmental conservation research, Westlaw, freelance writing

‡Political administration, insurance company, professional poker, sales, writing and editing consultant, community organizing


Some of these non-law positions are kinda awesome.

BigRedMachine
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Re: Michigan Law Class of 2015

Postby BigRedMachine » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:58 am

sanetruth wrote:So the updated career services info is really interesting, and perhaps a little disheartening. Don't want to get into details myself, but this in particular is a pretty interesting and useful resource:

http://www.law.umich.edu/careers/classs ... stats.aspx

despite that the numbers decline from right to left almost without exception...


Does anyone know--or have a plausible theory as to--why Skadden numbers plummeted from 09-11 (11, 7, 0) and Wachtell doesn't seem to recruit at Mich at all? Pretty depressing biglaw # trend.

keg411
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Re: Michigan Law Class of 2015

Postby keg411 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:17 am

BigRedMachine wrote:
sanetruth wrote:So the updated career services info is really interesting, and perhaps a little disheartening. Don't want to get into details myself, but this in particular is a pretty interesting and useful resource:

http://www.law.umich.edu/careers/classs ... stats.aspx

despite that the numbers decline from right to left almost without exception...


Does anyone know--or have a plausible theory as to--why Skadden numbers plummeted from 09-11 (11, 7, 0) and Wachtell doesn't seem to recruit at Mich at all? Pretty depressing biglaw # trend.


The Skadden thing is weird but I wouldn't worry about it... I know of more than one 2013 person with a Skadden SA and they recruited pretty heavily this past summer. Keep in mind, 2011 was a LOT worse then things are now and was pretty much the bottom of the barrel. The BigLaw numbers should begin going up again for c/o 2012.

WLRK has never recruited here. It's nothing to worry or be alarmed about -- especially as a 0L. Worrying about Wachtell is ridiculous since the chances of coming out of law school with those types of credentials is slim-to-none.

Also: the idea of being an actor with Law School debt would scare the ever loving shit out of me.

planeride
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Re: Michigan Law Class of 2015

Postby planeride » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:07 pm

Entchen wrote:
keg411 wrote:I don't think you can get more comprehensive then that employer list. Holy crap.
Would love to see this for other schools.

ETA: I also already know more people going to a lot of the bigger firms, and I barely know anyone in my class :lol:. I think this is pretty strong evidence that OCS fucked up that class up badly. I really feel bad for them.


This is my favorite part: Non-legal Employment.

*Actor, dentist's office, independent contractor, pharmacy, restaurant, sheep farmer, chief writer at Univision, startup, e-commerce consulting, Thomson Reuters, nonlaw university faculty position (2)

†Political campaign, bar owner, polo coach, test prep, elected state representative, technology/e-commerce, environmental conservation research, Westlaw, freelance writing

‡Political administration, insurance company, professional poker, sales, writing and editing consultant, community organizing


Exit options from sheep farming are awesome...though not for the sheep.

Kurst
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Re: Michigan Law Class of 2015

Postby Kurst » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:31 pm

On Saturday, Michigan alumnus Paul Campos inquired about his alma mater failing to acknowledge the existence of its postgraduate fellowship program. Today, Michigan acknowledged the existence of the program (LinkRemoved). 75 graduates in the Class of 2011 were hired by the school, and 61 graduates of the Class of 2010 were hired by the school.

It is refreshing to see Michigan publish more truthful data, but the bleak numbers are terrifying. For the Class of 2011, just 34% of the graduates (129 of 379) are working with a firm of 100+ lawyers.

planeride
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Re: Michigan Law Class of 2015

Postby planeride » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:09 pm

Kurst wrote:On Saturday, Michigan alumnus Paul Campos inquired about his alma mater failing to acknowledge the existence of its postgraduate fellowship program. Today, Michigan acknowledged the existence of the program (LinkRemoved). 75 graduates in the Class of 2011 were hired by the school, and 61 graduates of the Class of 2010 were hired by the school.

It is refreshing to see Michigan publish more truthful data, but the bleak numbers are terrifying. For the Class of 2011, just 34% of the graduates (129 of 379) are working with a firm of 100+ lawyers.


Wow. Very disappointing.

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moneybagsphd
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Re: Michigan Law Class of 2015

Postby moneybagsphd » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:17 pm

I'm still trying to decide between 54k at Mich and 120k at USC. Taking interest into account, it will cost appx 90k more to go to Mich (on 10yr loan repayment program). However, USC (or even UCLA) is not a particularly attractive option because it's so regional-- and I really prefer the Bay Area to LA. I'm considering retaking in June, just to see if I get a game-changing score. If I score >175 I would reapply; if not, I will attend wherever I put down a seat deposit. Michigan's ASW II exceeded all of my expectations. But reapplying and getting more money is unquestionably a more financially sound decision...

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aekea
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Re: Michigan Law Class of 2015

Postby aekea » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:21 pm

planeride wrote:
Kurst wrote:On Saturday, Michigan alumnus Paul Campos inquired about his alma mater failing to acknowledge the existence of its postgraduate fellowship program. Today, Michigan acknowledged the existence of the program (LinkRemoved). 75 graduates in the Class of 2011 were hired by the school, and 61 graduates of the Class of 2010 were hired by the school.

It is refreshing to see Michigan publish more truthful data, but the bleak numbers are terrifying. For the Class of 2011, just 34% of the graduates (129 of 379) are working with a firm of 100+ lawyers.


Wow. Very disappointing.

I guess it's good that they're being transparent (even if it required prodding). One important note, though, is that there were not 75 people reported as employed because they were part of this fellowship program. By 9 months after graduation, 54 of those people had full-time employment, 13 were listed as unemployed and the remaining 8, I presume, were counted as employed under one of the vaguely titled categories like "academics."

What's really interesting is the HUGE drop in employment at 500+ attorney firms. 215 in 2009 to 85 in 2011? That's truly terrifying.

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MiAiLi
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Re: Michigan Law Class of 2015

Postby MiAiLi » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:30 pm

aekea wrote:What's really interesting is the HUGE drop in employment at 500+ attorney firms. 215 in 2009 to 85 in 2011? That's truly terrifying.


How much of this I wonder can be attributed to the self-selection at Michigan into PI. It is such a huge drop...just trying to figure out what could have caused it...

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JoeMo
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Re: Michigan Law Class of 2015

Postby JoeMo » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:49 pm

aekea wrote:What's really interesting is the HUGE drop in employment at 500+ attorney firms. 215 in 2009 to 85 in 2011? That's truly terrifying.


The percentage of people reporting lower. If you apply this proportionally the actual number employed at firms with 501 + attorneys had the same percentage responded would be closer to 130. Which is not to say that's not still a significant drop but it's more in line with what was reported in 2010 and with what people have been saying about bidding into the wrong market (Chicago).

Pretty much everyone I spoke to at ASW had the same thing to say, when this year's 3L's report their statistics they'll look a lot different. (Unfortunately, that's after most of us would already be almost a year in) But they seem to think that they made out a lot better than the year before them. I say, take everything with a grain of salt of course because there's no way any one student knows the specifics on every single person in their class but you also have to wonder if every school started providing this level of detail what would come out from the other schools as well.

Also, it's not necessarily true that Paul Campos is what prompted them to come out with these numbers even though the timing was awfully convenient for him seeing as how he can say he held them to task. I was told days before that this data was being worked on when I asked about the fellowship numbers and that it would be up on the website once it was ready. It just so happened that the timing ended up coinciding with Paul Campos' visit.
Last edited by JoeMo on Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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aekea
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Re: Michigan Law Class of 2015

Postby aekea » Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:00 pm

JoeMo wrote:
aekea wrote:What's really interesting is the HUGE drop in employment at 500+ attorney firms. 215 in 2009 to 85 in 2011? That's truly terrifying.


The percentage of people reporting lower. If you apply this proportionally the actual number employed at firms with 501 + attorneys had the same percentage responded would be closer to 130.



Not sure I understand this. To me it looks like they know the employment status of all but 1 person in the graduating class and they know the firm size of all but 5 people who went into private practice. To me that sounds like, at the most, there are 91, not 130 people working at 500+ firms. Maybe I'm not understanding what you're trying to say.

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aekea
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Re: Michigan Law Class of 2015

Postby aekea » Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:07 pm

aekea wrote:
JoeMo wrote:
aekea wrote:What's really interesting is the HUGE drop in employment at 500+ attorney firms. 215 in 2009 to 85 in 2011? That's truly terrifying.


The percentage of people reporting lower. If you apply this proportionally the actual number employed at firms with 501 + attorneys had the same percentage responded would be closer to 130.



Not sure I understand this. To me it looks like they know the employment status of all but 1 person in the graduating class and they know the firm size of all but 5 people who went into private practice. To me that sounds like, at the most, there are 91, not 130 people working at 500+ firms. Maybe I'm not understanding what you're trying to say.

Also, to correct myself since I'm getting all specific with the numbers, there are 82 people reporting jobs at 500+ firms for the 2011 class, not 85.

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JoeMo
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Re: Michigan Law Class of 2015

Postby JoeMo » Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:14 pm

aekea wrote:
JoeMo wrote:
aekea wrote:What's really interesting is the HUGE drop in employment at 500+ attorney firms. 215 in 2009 to 85 in 2011? That's truly terrifying.


The percentage of people reporting lower. If you apply this proportionally the actual number employed at firms with 501 + attorneys had the same percentage responded would be closer to 130.



Not sure I understand this. To me it looks like they know the employment status of all but 1 person in the graduating class and they know the firm size of all but 5 people who went into private practice. To me that sounds like, at the most, there are 91, not 130 people working at 500+ firms. Maybe I'm not understanding what you're trying to say.


Nevermind, admittedly I'm really tired and also retarded. I was looking at the % for which salary known numbers which really have nothing to do with what the discussion was so you can pretty much disregard. ZZzzZZZzzz

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citygirl000
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Re: Michigan Law Class of 2015

Postby citygirl000 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:29 pm

BigRedMachine wrote:
sanetruth wrote:So the updated career services info is really interesting, and perhaps a little disheartening. Don't want to get into details myself, but this in particular is a pretty interesting and useful resource:

http://www.law.umich.edu/careers/classs ... stats.aspx

despite that the numbers decline from right to left almost without exception...


Does anyone know--or have a plausible theory as to--why Skadden numbers plummeted from 09-11 (11, 7, 0) and Wachtell doesn't seem to recruit at Mich at all? Pretty depressing biglaw # trend.


Does anyone know what happened to Kirkland & Ellis #s from 09 to 11?

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JoeMo
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Re: Michigan Law Class of 2015

Postby JoeMo » Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:42 pm

citygirl000 wrote:
BigRedMachine wrote:
sanetruth wrote:So the updated career services info is really interesting, and perhaps a little disheartening. Don't want to get into details myself, but this in particular is a pretty interesting and useful resource:

http://www.law.umich.edu/careers/classs ... stats.aspx

despite that the numbers decline from right to left almost without exception...


Does anyone know--or have a plausible theory as to--why Skadden numbers plummeted from 09-11 (11, 7, 0) and Wachtell doesn't seem to recruit at Mich at all? Pretty depressing biglaw # trend.


Does anyone know what happened to Kirkland & Ellis #s from 09 to 11?


The Kirkland & Ellis thing is weird but I wouldn't worry about it... I know of more than one 2013 person with a Kirkland & Ellis SA and they recruited pretty heavily this past summer. Keep in mind, 2011 was a LOT worse than things are now and was pretty much the bottom of the barrel. The BigLaw numbers should begin going up again for c/o 2012.

American_in_China
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Re: Michigan Law Class of 2015

Postby American_in_China » Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:18 pm

Wasn't that class the one advised to bid heavily on Chicago, and then Chicago melted down during that summer and a ton of people got no offered? If so that's a one year abberation- big meltdown plus the recession hitting the market that was considered "safer" at the time meant so many grads got smacked.
You know, that would actually play out nice for us; if the numbers jump back up next year then Michigan will probably gain 2 or 3 points in the rankings metric and then jump back ahead of VPB. It's only 1 point behind VPB right now.
Anyways, it was a bad year; the employer ranking still has MIchigan at 4 or 5, so it should be fixed in the near future. It's not that firms like Michigan less; it was just a bad year. Statistical noise.




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