For 1L's: What is the biggest diff between College and LS

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awesomepossum
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Re: For 1L's: What is the biggest diff between College and LS

Postby awesomepossum » Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:22 pm

joyce615 wrote:there is pressure to do as much as everyone else is doing. everyone works super hard, and even though each law school will claim that its collegiality distinguishes it from other schools, it's still a competitive place.



Joyce is super competitive. :P


JUUUUUUST KIDDDDDDDIIIIING.





even though she might skip out on fun times this weekend for some work related hibbity jibbity...............

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joyce615
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Re: For 1L's: What is the biggest diff between College and LS

Postby joyce615 » Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:57 pm

awesomepossum wrote:
joyce615 wrote:there is pressure to do as much as everyone else is doing. everyone works super hard, and even though each law school will claim that its collegiality distinguishes it from other schools, it's still a competitive place.



Joyce is super competitive. :P


JUUUUUUST KIDDDDDDDIIIIING.





even though she might skip out on fun times this weekend for some work related hibbity jibbity...............


possum, you are a reading room hobbit :P

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mac.empress
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Re: For 1L's: What is the biggest diff between College and LS

Postby mac.empress » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:38 pm

Drinking now is more medicinal than recreational.

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rayiner
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Re: For 1L's: What is the biggest diff between College and LS

Postby rayiner » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:46 pm

thexfactor wrote:What is the biggest difference between college and ls?

Also, do you think the difference between HS and college is greater or less than the difference between college and law school?

Thanks


Law school is actually hard.

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Onion
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Re: For 1L's: What is the biggest diff between College and LS

Postby Onion » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:57 pm

mac.empress wrote:Drinking now is more medicinal than recreational.


Lol

EDIT: Did not post the rest...

I was a bartender at a bar near a law school during my UG... Man can law students drink. I noticed they only talked about two things, how much work they had, and how much debt they would have very crappy tippers).

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Kohinoor
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Re: For 1L's: What is the biggest diff between College and LS

Postby Kohinoor » Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:01 pm

Fear and hopelessness.

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underachiever
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Re: For 1L's: What is the biggest diff between College and LS

Postby underachiever » Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:05 pm

I actually have to pay for LS which makes it a much more stressful (UG was full ride). There is more reading and it doesn't stop (LS is like a marathon while UG was like a sprint with assignments-papers, etc.-). Also LS students are way more intense then UG students which can be annoying.

09042014
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Re: For 1L's: What is the biggest diff between College and LS

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:09 pm

rayiner wrote:
thexfactor wrote:What is the biggest difference between college and ls?

Also, do you think the difference between HS and college is greater or less than the difference between college and law school?

Thanks


Law school is actually hard.


Ray can you compare engineering undergrad with law school. Obviously the material is pretty different, but I'd like to hear your insights.

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rayiner
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Re: For 1L's: What is the biggest diff between College and LS

Postby rayiner » Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:30 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
rayiner wrote:
thexfactor wrote:What is the biggest difference between college and ls?

Also, do you think the difference between HS and college is greater or less than the difference between college and law school?

Thanks


Law school is actually hard.


Ray can you compare engineering undergrad with law school. Obviously the material is pretty different, but I'd like to hear your insights.


The studying process is somewhat different. We covered 100 pages in my aeroelasticity book, but 400-500 in each of my substantive classes. Obviously reading cases goes a lot faster. The material is easier to understand, but there is more of it. It's less frustrating sometimes --- you don't usually struggle over a case for an hour and make no progress like you might with a problem set.

The work load is more regular. I'd stay up late at night working on problem sets, but very rarely stayed up late in law school except a couple of days for legal writing assignments. The total amount probably averages out to be the same as a solid semester of engineering classes (eg: freshman year weed-out courses). Finals week was probably less stressful than senior design project. For the former, I spent a couple of weeks in the library staying up really late each night, but for the latter it was more like four weeks in the library but still getting 7-8 hours of sleep each night.

I thought the engineering mindset was tremendously useful in law school. Engineering just ingrains a lot of habits into your mindset that come in tremendously useful in law school. Supporting every assertion you make with facts or analysis, hitting every element of a claim even if they seem obvious, showing every step of a chain of reasoning (like a derivation) even if they seem obvious, carefully distinguishing between different analytical modes, analyzing orthogonal things separately, keeping track of whether the assumptions that underly a previous analysis still apply when you apply the resulting rules to a new problem, etc.

The one proviso is that you have to get out of the mindset of there being "one right answer". I know some engineers in my class who got into the mindset of "there is the right answer, and you just apply the rules to find it". This isn't a particularly good mindset even in engineering. It's more like "there are alternatives, and you use the rules to evaluate each one and find a result that optimizes some factor you're interested in".

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OperaSoprano
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Re: For 1L's: What is the biggest diff between College and LS

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:43 pm

The main difference for me has to do with the stakes involved. In UG, I spent most of my time interning or working, and didn't really need to be obsessed with my GPA. (Fortunately it was fine, though far from straight A+s)

In law school, everything feels like a life or death matter, and the gravity takes its toll. As much as I love it here, every test I take and paper I write has consequences that could be catastrophic. Granted, not everyone worries as much as I do, but we all know how much grades matter.

I do want to say something about the so called competitive nature of law students. Because I'm at a T30, I was expecting competition to be horrendous (even in the best times, biglaw is not a guarantee). People are sweet and helpful to a degree that shocks even me. Someone in my section told me about a model answer for Contracts that had turned up. I never would have found it without her aid, and she didn't have to tell me about it, but she did. When I was sick and disappeared during class, people came looking for me. I think law school competition is what we make of it.

Also, Rayiner is a genius. That is all.

09042014
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Re: For 1L's: What is the biggest diff between College and LS

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:53 pm

rayiner wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
rayiner wrote:
thexfactor wrote:What is the biggest difference between college and ls?

Also, do you think the difference between HS and college is greater or less than the difference between college and law school?

Thanks


Law school is actually hard.


Ray can you compare engineering undergrad with law school. Obviously the material is pretty different, but I'd like to hear your insights.


The studying process is somewhat different. We covered 100 pages in my aeroelasticity book, but 400-500 in each of my substantive classes. Obviously reading cases goes a lot faster. The material is easier to understand, but there is more of it. It's less frustrating sometimes --- you don't usually struggle over a case for an hour and make no progress like you might with a problem set.

The work load is more regular. I'd stay up late at night working on problem sets, but very rarely stayed up late in law school except a couple of days for legal writing assignments. The total amount probably averages out to be the same as a solid semester of engineering classes (eg: freshman year weed-out courses). Finals week was probably less stressful than senior design project. For the former, I spent a couple of weeks in the library staying up really late each night, but for the latter it was more like four weeks in the library but still getting 7-8 hours of sleep each night.

I thought the engineering mindset was tremendously useful in law school. Engineering just ingrains a lot of habits into your mindset that come in tremendously useful in law school. Supporting every assertion you make with facts or analysis, hitting every element of a claim even if they seem obvious, showing every step of a chain of reasoning (like a derivation) even if they seem obvious, carefully distinguishing between different analytical modes, analyzing orthogonal things separately, keeping track of whether the assumptions that underly a previous analysis still apply when you apply the resulting rules to a new problem, etc.

The one proviso is that you have to get out of the mindset of there being "one right answer". I know some engineers in my class who got into the mindset of "there is the right answer, and you just apply the rules to find it". This isn't a particularly good mindset even in engineering. It's more like "there are alternatives, and you use the rules to evaluate each one and find a result that optimizes some factor you're interested in".



Thanks I appreciate it.

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apper123
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Re: For 1L's: What is the biggest diff between College and LS

Postby apper123 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:33 pm

I actually get good grades in law school.

legends159
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Re: For 1L's: What is the biggest diff between College and LS

Postby legends159 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:39 pm

the fact that your entire grade rests on a single final exam, one which most 0Ls have never encountered before, is probably the biggest difference.

Most professors won't teach you how to write an exam unless you ask them or go over PT with them.

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PDaddy
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Re: For 1L's: What is the biggest diff between College and LS

Postby PDaddy » Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:56 pm

M_Cool wrote:For me, college was easier than high school. Most of the courses in undergrad are just broad survey's (at least for a social science degree like me) and so really easy to study for at the last minute. Law school, on the other hand, can be very very specific.

If I was to give advice to people going into 1L I wouldn't say "make sure you do all the readings and go above and beyond" though. I'd say be smart about what you are studying, don't get caught up with trivial points of law that won't be on the test, and relax. Say it with me again: study smart. It is so easy to put hours and hours and hours into the most useless information in law school. Don't get tricked into doing it. Stay on point.


Yes. But I just spoke online with a professor at a top law school who advised me to individually read and brief every case for every class. This contradicts what I have gleaned from others. Some people who have done very well have advised me to read and brief every case for just two classes, join a study group, and share notes and outlines (swap briefs, ex: my con law for your contracts), and use commercial outlines to fill in blanks.

I can see how trading briefs and outlines can be problematic if you are more thorough and write better than others. They get the better end of the deal.

Who's right?

Also, I have heard that, if at all possible within the realm of one's choices, it is better to attend a school where LRW courses are not graded, as graded LRW causes much more stress.

UVA1L
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Re: For 1L's: What is the biggest diff between College and LS

Postby UVA1L » Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:03 pm

At my college, I'd say about 40% of the people were actually trying. At UVA law school bump that number up to 90% or more.

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PDaddy
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Re: For 1L's: What is the biggest diff between College and LS

Postby PDaddy » Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:06 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:The main difference for me has to do with the stakes involved. In UG, I spent most of my time interning or working, and didn't really need to be obsessed with my GPA. (Fortunately it was fine, though far from straight A+s)

In law school, everything feels like a life or death matter, and the gravity takes its toll. As much as I love it here, every test I take and paper I write has consequences that could be catastrophic. Granted, not everyone worries as much as I do, but we all know how much grades matter.

I do want to say something about the so called competitive nature of law students. Because I'm at a T30, I was expecting competition to be horrendous (even in the best times, biglaw is not a guarantee). People are sweet and helpful to a degree that shocks even me. Someone in my section told me about a model answer for Contracts that had turned up. I never would have found it without her aid, and she didn't have to tell me about it, but she did. When I was sick and disappeared during class, people came looking for me. I think law school competition is what we make of it.

Also, Rayiner is a genius. That is all.


I think that - and this is true even at the UG level - a wise student realizes that, "access to information" is not the same as "savvy with the information". Dexterity/savvy, for lack of a better word, is self-developed. Once one understands this, one can assist others and appreciate the value in the exchange of information. I do expect law school to be a talent contest. Some already have the natural talent, others will quickly develop it, and it will pay off.

Still, others will not catch on until the end of their first year, and many others won't catch on at all. But how one does in school will not depend on who has information, but what each student can do with it. To that end, it is better to be in an environment where everyone shares information and helps each other along. In this, everyone gets their fair shot, but the cream still rises to the top. There's nothing wrong with that.
Last edited by PDaddy on Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:01 am, edited 3 times in total.

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macattaq
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Re: For 1L's: What is the biggest diff between College and LS

Postby macattaq » Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:06 pm

In undergrad, that random hookup from class could be lost in a classroom of 400 and a campus of 40,000.

In LS, that random hookup has the potential to ruin your social life.

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thexfactor
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Re: For 1L's: What is the biggest diff between College and LS

Postby thexfactor » Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:10 pm

Wow. I can answer my own question :P

I think the biggest difference for me is that LS classes generally move faster than college classes. On tests, more analysis is needed. You can't just spit out your whole outline.
The workload is slightly more than my undergrad. I went to a top public ( uva,umich,ucla).(LS 40s-50s range). Then again, I got bad grades in college. lol You have to learn how to study smart. You can study 8 hrs a day for the whole semester and get a bad grade if you study the wrong things.

The competition is actually pretty similar to my major classes in Economics. Some are extremely bright, while others are happy they got into LS.

I think econ prepares you pretty well for LS. A lot of concepts in law related to economics. Plus in most economics departments, there is a mandatory curve. You get used to being curved against your peers.
Last edited by thexfactor on Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Cavalier
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Re: For 1L's: What is the biggest diff between College and LS

Postby Cavalier » Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:30 pm

Learning the material in law school classes is not too different than in college. You have to attend class, do the readings, and then make sure you understand all of the concepts you covered. This is nothing new. The material is a bit more confusing, of course, but given the availability of supplements to explain just about everything in the first year courses, no one should have a problem figuring things out.

The major difference is the exams. College exams basically involve you regurgitating what you know. If you simply studied the class material, you will do fine. On the other hand, law school exams present you with a bizarre set of facts, and you have to use what you learned in class to make sense of those facts. In law school, not only do you need to learn the course material, but you also need to learn how to take exams. 90% of the class probably enters the exam room with a good understanding of most of the concepts in class. However, some people are better at applying the law to the facts than others.

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Pizon
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Re: For 1L's: What is the biggest diff between College and LS

Postby Pizon » Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:31 pm

thexfactor wrote:What is the biggest difference between college and ls?

Also, do you think the difference between HS and college is greater or less than the difference between college and law school?

Thanks


I know I'm in the minority on this one, and I'm sure this will read as a flame to some, but in terms of level of difficulty for me:

High school > college > law school

In high school, I had virtually every class each day, and there was usually an assignment to hand in for every class each day. It essentially ate up all of my time. College was slightly less difficult, because each class only met a few times per week and the assignments were less frequent. However, I studied computer engineering/science and there was still a lot of work. Law school is just a bunch of reading. None of the concepts are especially hard to grasp, either.

I'm also slightly older than most law students, and I've had some pretty intense life experience so I'm sure my perspective is skewed.

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mac.empress
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Re: For 1L's: What is the biggest diff between College and LS

Postby mac.empress » Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:57 pm

macattaq wrote:In undergrad, that random hookup from class could be lost in a classroom of 400 and a campus of 40,000.

In LS, that random hookup has the potential to ruin your social life.


+10,000

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mac.empress
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Re: For 1L's: What is the biggest diff between College and LS

Postby mac.empress » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:01 pm

Cavalier wrote:Learning the material in law school classes is not too different than in college. You have to attend class, do the readings, and then make sure you understand all of the concepts you covered. This is nothing new. The material is a bit more confusing, of course, but given the availability of supplements to explain just about everything in the first year courses, no one should have a problem figuring things out.

The major difference is the exams. College exams basically involve you regurgitating what you know. If you simply studied the class material, you will do fine. On the other hand, law school exams present you with a bizarre set of facts, and you have to use what you learned in class to make sense of those facts. In law school, not only do you need to learn the course material, but you also need to learn how to take exams. 90% of the class probably enters the exam room with a good understanding of most of the concepts in class. However, some people are better at applying the law to the facts than others.


That was me this semester. I had two graded law courses and a p/f foundation course. Studied the night before for the p/f - easy A, just like UG1. Law courses, studied all semester and got a B+ and a C. I love basic vomiting. Makes my transcript look so pretty.

Welp2277
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Re: For 1L's: What is the biggest diff between College and LS

Postby Welp2277 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:23 pm

thexfactor wrote:Wow. I can answer my own question :P

I think the biggest difference for me is that LS classes generally move faster than college classes. On tests, more analysis is needed. You can't just spit out your whole outline.
The workload is slightly more than my undergrad. I went to a top public ( uva,umich,ucla).(LS 40s-50s range). Then again, I got bad grades in college. lol You have to learn how to study smart. You can study 8 hrs a day for the whole semester and get a bad grade if you study the wrong things.

The competition is actually pretty similar to my major classes in Economics. Some are extremely bright, while others are happy they got into LS.

I think econ prepares you pretty well for LS. A lot of concepts in law related to economics. Plus in most economics departments, there is a mandatory curve. You get used to being curved against your peers.

I agree. Economics is one of the best undergrad majors for law, particularly in understanding policy. On top of policy and getting used to a forced curve, you also have a pretty decent mix of logic and writing. If I were to ever advise any undeclared college student interested in law, I would advise them to study econ.

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PDaddy
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Re: For 1L's: What is the biggest diff between College and LS

Postby PDaddy » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:08 am

Pizon wrote:
thexfactor wrote:What is the biggest difference between college and ls?

Also, do you think the difference between HS and college is greater or less than the difference between college and law school?

Thanks


I know I'm in the minority on this one, and I'm sure this will read as a flame to some, but in terms of level of difficulty for me:

High school > college > law school

In high school, I had virtually every class each day, and there was usually an assignment to hand in for every class each day. It essentially ate up all of my time. College was slightly less difficult, because each class only met a few times per week and the assignments were less frequent. However, I studied computer engineering/science and there was still a lot of work. Law school is just a bunch of reading. None of the concepts are especially hard to grasp, either.

I'm also slightly older than most law students, and I've had some pretty intense life experience so I'm sure my perspective is skewed.



In high school, I was focussed on sports and getting laid. But I didn't have as much freedom. In college, I was focussed on partying and getting laid. And I had the freedom to get laid all I wanted. So I had to discipline myself, which was a chore because you are on your own schedule. It also made things easier. I took the courses I wanted to take.

In law school, I am going to focus on getting laid for the first few weeks. Whomever I study with in my first month is getting laid (females only). I have to get that out of the way, so I can do my work and avoid the drama. No girlfriends. I'll get laid from August to September, then take a break until Christmas, come home, get laid some more, take a break until spring break in Cancun, get laid for a week, take another break until summer...then get laid with my summer associate friends all summer.

That should work out. It won't ruin your life if you're honest and tell the chick she's not your girl.

solidsnake
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Re: For 1L's: What is the biggest diff between College and LS

Postby solidsnake » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:13 am

No time for women. Con law cases take FOREVER to read.




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