FBI/CIA/NSA recruiting from T14?

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Origin
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FBI/CIA/NSA recruiting from T14?

Postby Origin » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:25 am

I know a law degree allows you to apply for the FBI (as it qualifies as both an entry program and a critical skill, both of which are required to be employed), is it unheard of? The pay is average - at best - even at the higher levels. Is it unheard of to take such a career path?

What about the other more clandestine branches of the government such as the CIA and NSA? Are they known to try and pick a few people out of the classes of the T14? Does a T14 law degree even open doors at such agencies?

While Big Law is the typical path - and likely will be my path as well - I just want to get an idea of what other doors a relatively prestigious law degree would open and how wide it would open them.

wesleybs
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Re: FBI/CIA/NSA recruiting from T14?

Postby wesleybs » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:29 am

A lawyer friend told me that the FBI used to only hire JDs and accountants. As for the CIA, on the website, it lists JDs as a possible entranceway into clandestine services. I don't know anything about NSA. As for school rankings and so forth, I have no idea.

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zer0luck
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Re: FBI/CIA/NSA recruiting from T14?

Postby zer0luck » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:48 am

A family friend of mine was hired by the FBI immediatly after law school -from Regent of all places. Apparently they didn't even require that she pass the bar.

Last I heard, NSA was not too eager to take on new people, with the exception of by name requests or if you speak a Cat III language. This information mostly related to intel/analyst type jobs, but it might apply to JD jobs as well.

On a side note, one of the most interesting and enjoyable briefings I have ever received was given by one of the top NSA lawyers on USSID 18, a topic that usually bores me to tears. The guy actually had a functioning sense of humor. Some of their lawyers work in a department aptly named "Oversight and Compliance". Its so deliciously orwellian...

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joyce615
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Re: FBI/CIA/NSA recruiting from T14?

Postby joyce615 » Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:40 am

I'm really interested in knowing more about this too.

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kilgoretrout
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Re: FBI/CIA/NSA recruiting from T14?

Postby kilgoretrout » Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:11 am

Why don't you just take a commission in the Armed Services? It takes about the same amount of time, you will be making money vice going 150k in debt, and if you select an appropriate specialty you can build up skills and experience that will make you a much more attractive candidate to those agencies than some JD straight out of school.

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Paichka
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Re: FBI/CIA/NSA recruiting from T14?

Postby Paichka » Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:38 am

kilgoretrout wrote:Why don't you just take a commission in the Armed Services? It takes about the same amount of time, you will be making money vice going 150k in debt, and if you select an appropriate specialty you can build up skills and experience that will make you a much more attractive candidate to those agencies than some JD straight out of school.


I am the last person to tell someone NOT to join the military, but I just want to point out that this course of action is not as easy as it might seem. Someone who was not West Point or ROTC taking a commission in the Army has to go the OCS route. That's slightly more difficult than other officer producing programs, because it requires basic training prior to getting a commission. OCS grads are also at a disadvantage as far as getting their branch of choice, because West Pointers get first pick of branches & assignments, and ROTC grads pick next. OCS grads can beleft scraping the bottom of the barrel as far as branches and assignments go. Things MAY have changed recently given the officer shortages the military is facing -- but when I was coming through ROTC (4 years ago), the OCS grads were left with "needs of the Army".

Getting the hooah-hooah jobs can be difficult too -- applying for Ranger or Special Ops is a hard sell (very competitive). Military Intelligence is a good branch for those who want to work FBI/NSA/CIA, but again, it's not a lock that you'll get the branch you want. Even if you DO get the branch you want, you run the risk of be "detailed" to another branch for your first 2 or 3 years of service. I'm an MI officer, but because the MI branch doesn't need a whole ton of green lieutenants, I cut my teeth in the Chemical Corps for three years before officially joining the MI corps. Plus there's that whole deployment thing, which is ever-so-much-fun.

Don't get me wrong, the military is a great path for some people, and it's done a lot for me -- but anyone thinking about military service should go into it with their eyes open. Getting to do what you WANT to do is not 100% by any means, and it's a rough lifestyle on families. If I had the choice between a good law school and joining the Army again, I'd take law school. You can always join the military as a JAG once you've graduated.

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sky7
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Re: FBI/CIA/NSA recruiting from T14?

Postby sky7 » Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:03 am

Paichka wrote:
kilgoretrout wrote:Why don't you just take a commission in the Armed Services? It takes about the same amount of time, you will be making money vice going 150k in debt, and if you select an appropriate specialty you can build up skills and experience that will make you a much more attractive candidate to those agencies than some JD straight out of school.


I am the last person to tell someone NOT to join the military, but I just want to point out that this course of action is not as easy as it might seem. Someone who was not West Point or ROTC taking a commission in the Army has to go the OCS route. That's slightly more difficult than other officer producing programs, because it requires basic training prior to getting a commission. OCS grads are also at a disadvantage as far as getting their branch of choice, because West Pointers get first pick of branches & assignments, and ROTC grads pick next. OCS grads can beleft scraping the bottom of the barrel as far as branches and assignments go. Things MAY have changed recently given the officer shortages the military is facing -- but when I was coming through ROTC (4 years ago), the OCS grads were left with "needs of the Army".

Getting the hooah-hooah jobs can be difficult too -- applying for Ranger or Special Ops is a hard sell (very competitive). Military Intelligence is a good branch for those who want to work FBI/NSA/CIA, but again, it's not a lock that you'll get the branch you want. Even if you DO get the branch you want, you run the risk of be "detailed" to another branch for your first 2 or 3 years of service. I'm an MI officer, but because the MI branch doesn't need a whole ton of green lieutenants, I cut my teeth in the Chemical Corps for three years before officially joining the MI corps. Plus there's that whole deployment thing, which is ever-so-much-fun.

Don't get me wrong, the military is a great path for some people, and it's done a lot for me -- but anyone thinking about military service should go into it with their eyes open. Getting to do what you WANT to do is not 100% by any means, and it's a rough lifestyle on families. If I had the choice between a good law school and joining the Army again, I'd take law school. You can always join the military as a JAG once you've graduated.



OCS harder then an academy? Right.

Anyway, I totally agree with the rest of your post wholeheartedly. There is very little choice in the military.

Want to be CIA/FBI/NSA? Express a strong sense of duty, motivation, a willingness to travel, have a marketable skill (law can work), know Arabic, and be in good shape. I'd say you have an above average shot with those qualifications.

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wardboro
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Re: FBI/CIA/NSA recruiting from T14?

Postby wardboro » Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:21 am

..
Last edited by wardboro on Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.

CaptainDirtyBird
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Re: FBI/CIA/NSA recruiting from T14?

Postby CaptainDirtyBird » Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:26 am

OCS = adults. Acadamies = highschool kids.

You tell me who you would rather compete against for a job...and oh yeah, it doesn't work like a career fair day for most other ways of getting a commission.

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kilgoretrout
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Re: FBI/CIA/NSA recruiting from T14?

Postby kilgoretrout » Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:22 am

I resent the last few posters for turning my harmless suggestion into a pissing match. You make the rest of us look like tools.

edited for grammar

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BondGirl
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Re: FBI/CIA/NSA recruiting from T14?

Postby BondGirl » Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:52 am

Is this what you mean by category 3 language? http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Category:C ... _Languages

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sky7
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Re: FBI/CIA/NSA recruiting from T14?

Postby sky7 » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:29 pm

kilgoretrout wrote:I resent the last few posters for turning my harmless suggestion into a pissing match. You make the rest of us look like tools.

edited for grammar


I think things were misinterpreted. It's harder to get what you want coming from OCS, I agree there. But OCS being a harder path to a commission? I'll beg to differ. One last point - I know a LOT of people from the various academies (including myself) who didn't get what they wanted. It's not a sure bet no matter which way you go.

CaptainDirtyBird wrote:OCS = adults. Acadamies = highschool kids.


Way to make a broad generalization that is in no way true.

Sorry for being toolish, I guess.

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Origin
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Re: FBI/CIA/NSA recruiting from T14?

Postby Origin » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:56 pm

Well none of this argument really answers the question. At the risk of sounding rude, I wasn't asking what the best paths to the CIA are, but rather could you gain employment with the CIA with a T14 law degree and whether or not they "actively" recruit from t14 law schools.

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sky7
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Re: FBI/CIA/NSA recruiting from T14?

Postby sky7 » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:58 pm

Kayos wrote:Well none of this argument really answers the question. At the risk of sounding rude, I wasn't asking what the best paths to the CIA are, but rather could you gain employment with the CIA with a T14 law degree and whether or not they "actively" recruit from t14 law schools.


Yeah, we were a bit off topic.

In regards to your question, I'm clueless. Now, places like Office of the General Council for the Navy, they deploy occasionally, if you're looking for a little excitement.
Last edited by sky7 on Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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sky7
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Re: FBI/CIA/NSA recruiting from T14?

Postby sky7 » Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:59 pm

https://www.cia.gov/careers/jobs/view-a ... clerk.html

Seems like being T14 would help here.

This is my favorite part:
"Important Notice: Friends, family, individuals, or organizations may be interested to learn that you are an applicant for or an employee of the CIA. Their interest, however, may not be benign or in your best interest. You cannot control whom they would tell. We therefore ask you to exercise discretion and good judgment in disclosing your interest in a position with the Agency. You will receive further guidance on this topic as you proceed through your CIA employment processing."

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Paichka
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Re: FBI/CIA/NSA recruiting from T14?

Postby Paichka » Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:23 pm

sky7 wrote:
kilgoretrout wrote:I resent the last few posters for turning my harmless suggestion into a pissing match. You make the rest of us look like tools.

edited for grammar


I think things were misinterpreted. It's harder to get what you want coming from OCS, I agree there. But OCS being a harder path to a commission? I'll beg to differ. One last point - I know a LOT of people from the various academies (including myself) who didn't get what they wanted. It's not a sure bet no matter which way you go.


*wince* I'm sorry, Kilgore -- didn't mean to be a tool.

I'm also sorry that I started a minor thread derail with OCS vs other commissioning sources -- I have friends from both the academy and OCS, and the OCS guys say their way is harder. Kind of a sore subject, though, huh? I really have no basis for comparison, I'm ROTC. We're universally acknowledged as the easiest way to a gold bar. :)

Anyway, back to the OP -- I'm sure they do. MIT especially. Didn't you see "The Recruit"? ;) I think doing well at a t14 LS goes a long way towards any career path you might want to follow (within reason, of course).

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zer0luck
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Re: FBI/CIA/NSA recruiting from T14?

Postby zer0luck » Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:31 pm

Lets be honest, there are very few (if any) TLS posters who are qualified to answer this question. It is routine to sign nondisclosure forms in the application process for agency positions, even before a job offer is made.

The FBI is a little different. If you go on their home page, they have a few regional recruiting SAs that you can pepper with questions. Its hit or miss, but some of them are very open and helpful with career path info.

There is a big difference between using a JD degree to be an agency lawyer and using your JD degree for an analyst/operator/SA position.

wesleybs
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Re: FBI/CIA/NSA recruiting from T14?

Postby wesleybs » Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:34 pm

One thing to consider. I've been told that the CIA doesn't like to hire people with heavy debt because they are more likely to be swayed by other countries. If the T14 will leave you with 110k+ debt, and you could got to a slightly lower school with little to no debt, it may pay off in the hiring process.

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zer0luck
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Re: FBI/CIA/NSA recruiting from T14?

Postby zer0luck » Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:37 pm

that is standard for any type of security clearance. A huge disqualifier, even more than SOME crimes, is overdue payments or bankrupcy.

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sky7
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Re: FBI/CIA/NSA recruiting from T14?

Postby sky7 » Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:00 pm

zer0luck wrote:that is standard for any type of security clearance. A huge disqualifier, even more than SOME crimes, is overdue payments or bankrupcy.



Now that is one advantage of the military. Rolling out of the military with an active TS/SCI clearance + T14 law school? Not sure if there's much that beats that regarding clandestine operations (especially if the military area was SF). This is one of the reasons I'm pursuing LS part time while I'm in the military - clearances help job prospects in a lot of ways, and I don't want mine to time out while I'm going to law school.

I didn't hijack the thread again, did I? Drat!

upgrade
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Re: FBI/CIA/NSA recruiting from T14?

Postby upgrade » Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:01 pm

Would a job with CIA/FBI/NSA classify for the new federal loan assistance program?

jmo7
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Re: FBI/CIA/NSA recruiting from T14?

Postby jmo7 » Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:07 pm

Dear God, I wouldn't go through an extra 3 years of school just to work for the cia/fbi/nsa. Just get an engineering (ee or cs) undergrad and you'll have no problem.

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joyce615
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Re: FBI/CIA/NSA recruiting from T14?

Postby joyce615 » Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:12 pm

I'm pretty sure you can gain employment with the CIA with a T14 degree, or any law degree for that matter. J.D. is listed as a major discipline that will allow you to work in 3 of their 4 job groupings.

https://www.cia.gov/careers/jobs/chart-your-career.html




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