law school is already annoying the hell out of me and I'm only halfway through 1L

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cavalier1138

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Re: law school is already annoying the hell out of me and I'm only halfway through 1L

Postby cavalier1138 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:09 pm

Ok, as much as I think the OP made a disastrous decision in choosing to attend law school, I'm even more distressed by (a) how few of you have seen "Animal House" and (b) how few of you bothered to read the thread.

RedPurpleBlue

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Re: law school is already annoying the hell out of me and I'm only halfway through 1L

Postby RedPurpleBlue » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:24 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:I'm actually in the "drop out" camp, but that's because I was apparently in the "don't go at all" camp back when you told everyone that you were going to law school because you couldn't figure out anything better to do.

Shocking. Everyone who warned you about this was right. But I don't know why anyone expects you to start listening to advice now.


I'm going to agree here. OP should drop out. I didn't even remember it, but sure enough I checked the threads and I apparently spent a lot of time telling OP to not go to law school. Going back to an inside sales job at $50,000/yr. + commission isn't going to be too awful with the $20,000-$30,000 of debt you've accumulated so far. Plus, making $50,000/yr. + commission would probably be a very good outcome for most coming out of Loyola, so by dropping out and going to sales you'll probably end up better off than if you saw the law school thing through.
Last edited by RedPurpleBlue on Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rzzza

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Re: law school is already annoying the hell out of me and I'm only halfway through 1L

Postby rzzza » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:07 pm

mcmand wrote:
rzzza wrote:Did America surrender when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?


False analogy.

I don't think you should drop out at this point. Rethink your strategy as we've already discussed. Once you're in your 1L summer gig and have your grades back, you can reevaluate. It's not usually worth dropping out at this stage.

Addendum: do not listen to the folks telling you to drop out. This is not the environment to make that decision. You should wait (as I said above) to see how well you turn things around. Even if you still struggle next term, you should have a good talk with folks at your school, and supportive people in your life, about what your goals are and what are the ways to achieve them. It may mean staying, or going, or taking a semester or two off, but just relying purely on the advice of the two jokers (so far) on this thread on life changing decisions is not advisable.

Good luck and check back in. PM if you need more advice or ideas for how to approach the rest of 1L.


Thanks man, I appreciate it. I got a B in torts btw so my GPA is 2.7 right now. If I bust my ass and get a little lucky in my spring semester I hope I can pull my GPA up to a 3.0.

jacketyellow wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:I'm actually in the "drop out" camp, but that's because I was apparently in the "don't go at all" camp back when you told everyone that you were going to law school because you couldn't figure out anything better to do.

Shocking. Everyone who warned you about this was right. But I don't know why anyone expects you to start listening to advice now.


Same here. We argued with him for days about Loyola and Chicago-Kent, and he still went! Now, he has bad grades at one of the worst law schools in the United States, and we're supposed to tell him to stay at that school? Dude, just drop out. It's no use spending all this money because you have nothing else to do when you likely won't even work as a lawyer after graduation.


Neither of those are one of the worst law schools in the U.S. What are you talking about man? The worst law schools in the U.S. are the ones ranked in the 200's or unaccredited ones that aren't even ranked.

FascinatedWanderer

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Re: law school is already annoying the hell out of me and I'm only halfway through 1L

Postby FascinatedWanderer » Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:51 am

Below a certain rank, all law schools are an indecipherable mass of worthlessness. Both those schools are well below the rank where that starts to be true.

cavalier1138

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Re: law school is already annoying the hell out of me and I'm only halfway through 1L

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:29 am

rzzza wrote:Thanks man, I appreciate it. I got a B in torts btw so my GPA is 2.7 right now. If I bust my ass and get a little lucky in my spring semester I hope I can pull my GPA up to a 3.0.


Let's say your dreams come true. What job options will you likely have with a 3.0 at this school?

1styearlateral

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Re: law school is already annoying the hell out of me and I'm only halfway through 1L

Postby 1styearlateral » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:22 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
rzzza wrote:Thanks man, I appreciate it. I got a B in torts btw so my GPA is 2.7 right now. If I bust my ass and get a little lucky in my spring semester I hope I can pull my GPA up to a 3.0.


Let's say your dreams come true. What job options will you likely have with a 3.0 at this school?

If OP goes to a strong regional school, a 3.0/3.2 with some strong networking could get OP at a nice regional law firm (or regional biglaw).

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Re: law school is already annoying the hell out of me and I'm only halfway through 1L

Postby sparkytrainer » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:24 pm

1styearlateral wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
rzzza wrote:Thanks man, I appreciate it. I got a B in torts btw so my GPA is 2.7 right now. If I bust my ass and get a little lucky in my spring semester I hope I can pull my GPA up to a 3.0.


Let's say your dreams come true. What job options will you likely have with a 3.0 at this school?

If OP goes to a strong regional school, a 3.0/3.2 with some strong networking could get OP at a nice regional law firm (or regional biglaw).


Or it might be below median and OP has an almost 0% chance at getting employed. We need to know the school and the school's median before being able to tell OP anything like you suggest.

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Re: law school is already annoying the hell out of me and I'm only halfway through 1L

Postby 1styearlateral » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:26 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:
1styearlateral wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
rzzza wrote:Thanks man, I appreciate it. I got a B in torts btw so my GPA is 2.7 right now. If I bust my ass and get a little lucky in my spring semester I hope I can pull my GPA up to a 3.0.


Let's say your dreams come true. What job options will you likely have with a 3.0 at this school?

If OP goes to a strong regional school, a 3.0/3.2 with some strong networking could get OP at a nice regional law firm (or regional biglaw).


Or it might be below median and OP has an almost 0% chance at getting employed. We need to know the school and the school's median before being able to tell OP anything like you suggest.

Sure. But even if a TTT I'd still say it's not 0%. I graduated at median (with a sub-3.0 gpa) and am in great boutique in a major market. It can be done.

sparkytrainer

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Re: law school is already annoying the hell out of me and I'm only halfway through 1L

Postby sparkytrainer » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:44 pm

1styearlateral wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
1styearlateral wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
rzzza wrote:Thanks man, I appreciate it. I got a B in torts btw so my GPA is 2.7 right now. If I bust my ass and get a little lucky in my spring semester I hope I can pull my GPA up to a 3.0.


Let's say your dreams come true. What job options will you likely have with a 3.0 at this school?

If OP goes to a strong regional school, a 3.0/3.2 with some strong networking could get OP at a nice regional law firm (or regional biglaw).


Or it might be below median and OP has an almost 0% chance at getting employed. We need to know the school and the school's median before being able to tell OP anything like you suggest.

Sure. But even if a TTT I'd still say it's not 0%. I graduated at median (with a sub-3.0 gpa) and am in great boutique in a major market. It can be done.


Just because it CAN be done doesn't mean its likely. I mean someone will eventually win the lottery, but the odds are awful. Here, we can assess more specifically with more data. I congratulate you on your success, but doesn't mean its likely.

mcmand

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Re: law school is already annoying the hell out of me and I'm only halfway through 1L

Postby mcmand » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:01 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:Just because it CAN be done doesn't mean its likely. I mean someone will eventually win the lottery, but the odds are awful. Here, we can assess more specifically with more data. I congratulate you on your success, but doesn't mean its likely.


OP is in a difficult spot so far. But dropping out now deprives him of additional data to evaluate if it's worth it, and dropping out of law school has consequences, just like going to law school does.

OP can turn this around this semester, and see if he likes his 1L summer. I think the latter is particularly important for his personal risk/benefit analysis as to whether the cost and his odds of finding employment meaningful to him make it worth it. He should have done that before showing up for first semester, but it's too late for that now. Depriving himself of the potential to see if he likes real legal work after he has done a semester seems like a wasted opportunity to me.

You can read the old threads to see where he's at for school. It's one of two options. The links are previously posted.

I don't think there is much point in brow-beating him if his semester already started, as the deadline for tuition refunds is rapidly approaching, if not already past. He may as well give it a go if he can't get his money back.

Good luck OP, as I said earlier. Put your back into it this semester, and use your head, too. I think you can figure this out to get back into the land of B's and maybe B+'s. If not, talk to your support network about next steps.
Last edited by mcmand on Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

sparkytrainer

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Re: law school is already annoying the hell out of me and I'm only halfway through 1L

Postby sparkytrainer » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:13 pm

mcmand wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:Just because it CAN be done doesn't mean its likely. I mean someone will eventually win the lottery, but the odds are awful. Here, we can assess more specifically with more data. I congratulate you on your success, but doesn't mean its likely.


OP is in a difficult spot so far. But dropping out now deprives him of additional data to evaluate if it's worth it, and dropping out of law school has consequences, just like going to law school does.

OP can turn this around this semester, and see if he likes his 1L summer. I think the latter is particularly important for his personal risk/benefit analysis as to whether the cost and his odds of finding employment meaningful to him make it worth it. He should have done that before showing up for first semester, but it's too late for that now. Depriving himself of the potential to see if he likes real legal work after he has done a semester seems like a wasted opportunity to me.

You can read the old threads to see where he's at for school. It's one of two options. The links are previously posted.

I don't think there is much point in brow-beating him if his semester already started, as the deadline for tuition refunds is rapidly approaching, if not already past. He may as well give it a go if he can't get his money back.

Good luck OP, as I said earlier. Put your back into it this semester, and use your head, too. I think you can figure this out to get back into the land of B's and maybe B+'s. If not, talk to your support network about next steps.


Wait I never called for OP to drop out, but more information from him could help assess that question

mcmand

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Re: law school is already annoying the hell out of me and I'm only halfway through 1L

Postby mcmand » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:49 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:Wait I never called for OP to drop out, but more information from him could help assess that question


Sorry, lumping you in with everyone else who is on the pile-on/drop out train.
Last edited by mcmand on Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

PorscheFanatic

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Re: law school is already annoying the hell out of me and I'm only halfway through 1L

Postby PorscheFanatic » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:08 pm

Serious question- after getting bad grades at the quality of school you're at, are you still glad you went to law school just to please your parents (I read through the old threads that were linked above)?

Are you at least finding what you're learning in your classes interesting, so that even if this decision pans out horribly for you financially, you'll at least potentially enjoy your job? Just curious. I kinda want to keep following your story now.

I'll give you one thing- you've taken some really bad outcomes surprisingly well/in stride.

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Re: law school is already annoying the hell out of me and I'm only halfway through 1L

Postby lolwat » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:51 pm

Without knowing your history or what law school you go to, I'll just briefly mention that I was above median but not even top 33% after my first semester at a t20 school, killed every other semester after that, graduated in the top 5%, did a federal clerkship, and landed at one of those elite litigation boutique making roughly biglaw money litigating pretty cool cases (although I kinda want to lateral for other reasons now).

It takes a fuckton of hard work and some luck to pull yourself up when you started off poorly, but it's doable if you want to see it through instead of giving up now.

Again, that's without knowing your history, why you went to law school, how interested you are in it, what other options you have, etc.

PorscheFanatic

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Re: law school is already annoying the hell out of me and I'm only halfway through 1L

Postby PorscheFanatic » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:03 pm

A t20 is very different from the schools that OP was considering going to (and presumably is now attending). OP goes to a school ranked in the vicinity of 100 according US News.

T20 can include some great schools in major markets, e.g. GW, UCLA, GULC etc. which certainly lead to different employment outcomes for the median graduates.

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Re: law school is already annoying the hell out of me and I'm only halfway through 1L

Postby pancakes3 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:35 pm

i will say, good job on A- in legal writing. if you kill it in 2nd semester legal writing and TA'ing for a legal writing professor, that's a pretty good resume line. you still need your GPA to get screeners but it's a big time signal - probably better than rando LR grunt. def better than rando journal grunt.

mcmand

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Re: law school is already annoying the hell out of me and I'm only halfway through 1L

Postby mcmand » Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:17 pm

pancakes3 wrote:i will say, good job on A- in legal writing. if you kill it in 2nd semester legal writing and TA'ing for a legal writing professor, that's a pretty good resume line. you still need your GPA to get screeners but it's a big time signal - probably better than rando LR grunt. def better than rando journal grunt.


Yeah agreed. I think all my classmates who were legal writing TAs ended up landing pretty well. It's definitely a skill employers want.
OP, depending on how your school's journals/law review works, good writing could also get you on to law review or at least another journal just based on writing alone. (My school's LR took a chunk of people based on their write-on sample alone, a chunk based on grades and sample, and a chunk just on grades.) This is more of an outside chance, but it's not impossible. Really give some of your memos your all in terms of editing and refining and consulting with permitted resources/your instructor. Nice thing about legal writing is it usually helps train your brain for better exam writing, too. Won't help with speed but definitely helps with clarity/organization, which a professor grading a stack of essays will appreciate.
Last edited by mcmand on Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lolwat

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Re: law school is already annoying the hell out of me and I'm only halfway through 1L

Postby lolwat » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:59 pm

PorscheFanatic wrote:A t20 is very different from the schools that OP was considering going to (and presumably is now attending). OP goes to a school ranked in the vicinity of 100 according US News.

T20 can include some great schools in major markets, e.g. GW, UCLA, GULC etc. which certainly lead to different employment outcomes for the median graduates.


My T20 was none of those schools. It's one of those nice schools that happened to be horribly placed in what I might not even consider a secondary market. Neither my clerkship nor the firm I ended up at (and the other firms I interviewed with, for that matter) were in the market in which my school is located.

Also, the T100 includes a lot of schools that place well within their geographical region, too, so it matters that I don't know what school OP went to. S Schools like Loyola and Pepperdine, which I think are in the lower half of the T100, place OK (although not great) in the SoCal market, presumably because of their massive alumni network here. I think Georgia State places OK in Atlanta although it's obviously dominated by UGA. SLU places pretty damn good in St. Louis. Drake places well in Iowa (although there's like zero biglaw there obviously). And so on... those are just the ones I have a better idea of. I'd take your word for it if you say that OP's T100 has horrible chances at employment in general, but then again his grades probably wouldn't change that anyway.

All I'm saying is that a bad first semester is horrible, and makes it a giant fucking uphill battle from here on out, but it does not have to determine OP's fate should he choose to continue.

sparty99

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Re: law school is already annoying the hell out of me and I'm only halfway through 1L

Postby sparty99 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:22 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
rzzza wrote:Thanks man, I appreciate it. I got a B in torts btw so my GPA is 2.7 right now. If I bust my ass and get a little lucky in my spring semester I hope I can pull my GPA up to a 3.0.


Let's say your dreams come true. What job options will you likely have with a 3.0 at this school?


I work with and know a lot of Loyola and Chicago Kent grads (and John Marshall). You should consider dropping out. You will be lucky to have a job at graduation, will probably get a job doing insurance defense in Chicago making $60k or working as a Cook County Prosecutor making $57,000 after and assuming you passed the bar. I see these grads all the time. They go from shitty Chicago law firm to shitty Chicago law firm. The only ones who get to good firms are the ones who got a shitty firm, but had good grades and were able to lateral after 1-3 years. But otherwise, Loyola and Chicago Kent are garbage in terms of employment. That is not to say you cant become Partner at an insurance defense firm. Because Loyola and Kent graduates are very good lawyers.



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