below median 1L T-14. What's next?

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jeje99

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below median 1L T-14. What's next?

Postby jeje99 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:05 pm

After beating myself up for about 2 weeks and reluctantly applying to jobs I think I won't get, I decided to try to turn things around and attempt to be more productive in addressing this. I've already messaged 2 of my professors to review scores. As the subject says, 1L at a lower T-14 with bad grades, 3.0 on about a 3.2-3.3 scale. (lowest grades in civil procedure & legal research course)
Other than reviewing my test scores, is there anyway to really begin addressing my issues from last semester before the spring semester starts? I ran out of time outlining last year, and spent too much time reading/not practicing tests. Really just depressed and not feeling great right now, so any advice would help.

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pancakes3

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Re: below median 1L T-14. What's next?

Postby pancakes3 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:08 pm

sounds like you already know what you have to do and all that's left is to do it.

EVERYONE's grades change going from one semester to another and there's no reason why you can't slay it next semester and head into OCI at median or above.

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Re: below median 1L T-14. What's next?

Postby WarriorPoet » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:21 pm

pancakes3 wrote:sounds like you already know what you have to do and all that's left is to do it.

EVERYONE's grades change going from one semester to another and there's no reason why you can't slay it next semester and head into OCI at median or above.


I'd echo this. All of your classmates have taken like four graded law school exams each, which isn't really a big enough sample size to determine anything, and they're all going to draw different lessons from the results. Some very capable people in your shoes may get discouraged and not try as hard; others who did well by some happy accident of the curve may think they've got it nailed and stop progressing. If it helps, I talked to a very successful partner at Latham recently who did even worse his first semester--he buckled down, learned the system, and obviously did well for himself afterwards. In addition, you're at a T14; you're probably not going to be homeless even if you're still a little below median at graduation.

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magnum_law

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Re: below median 1L T-14. What's next?

Postby magnum_law » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:33 pm

First piece of advice is what has already been stated: focus on learning from your mistakes and correcting them. You are only half way through and far from doomed.

Second, NETWORK. Especially if you are targeting any market outside of NYC (but you should regardless).

Finally, read this thread. OP had a 3.1 after 1L. Ended up with a bunch of biglaw offers anyway.
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=278681&start=25

mcmand

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Re: below median 1L T-14. What's next?

Postby mcmand » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:44 pm

Don't get down on yourself. Being upset is ok. Ruminating and wallowing won't help though. Take all the advice posted above, be strategic about how you're going to improve. And, make some time to do something not law school related once a week that will rejuvenate you. Make sure you're sleeping enough and eating right. Get some exercise, even if it's just a brisk walk. A boost to your mental health will bring the clarity for you to fully engage with learning.

A lot of 1Ls (myself included when I was one) neglect the mental/physical care that supports being successful and able to learn. It makes a huge difference. I promise you that a little time each day on this will go a long way.

Things to avoid: your phone, social media (including TLS other than basic advice threads for improving studying), too much TV, too much law school gossip, alcohol/other substances

Things to do: any easy hobby of yours, exercise, sleep, eating good food/preparing said food, healthy socializing wherever it can fit in your schedule, counseling (if needed)
Last edited by mcmand on Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AaronCarter

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Re: below median 1L T-14. What's next?

Postby AaronCarter » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:48 pm

good luck bud
Last edited by AaronCarter on Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mcmand

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Re: below median 1L T-14. What's next?

Postby mcmand » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:09 pm

AaronCarter wrote:I'm sorry this happened to you :/
I'm rooting for you to pick it back up next semester!

Not to hijack the thread, but quick question:

To those of you have finished at t14s, do you believe that those who *graduate* below median are still a lock for 180k jobs?

Or is that only true for the t6?

Again, sorry if this is an inappropriate place for the questions.


It is indeed an inappropriate place.
Last edited by mcmand on Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: below median 1L T-14. What's next?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:12 pm

AaronCarter wrote:I'm sorry this happened to you :/
I'm rooting for you to pick it back up next semester!

Not to hijack the thread, but quick question:

To those of you have finished at t14s, do you believe that those who *graduate* below median are still a lock for 180k jobs?

Or is that only true for the t6?

Again, sorry if this is an inappropriate place for the questions.

Yeah, it is. 1) 0Ls can't post in this forum, and 2) it is hijacking the thread and that's kind of unfair to the OP who sounds like they're feeling kind of bad right now (and to whom I will say what everyone else said: things can change a LOT by the end of the year, so don't despair!).

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pancakes3

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Re: below median 1L T-14. What's next?

Postby pancakes3 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:20 pm

it's also a stupid as fuck question.

jeje99

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Re: below median 1L T-14. What's next?

Postby jeje99 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:21 pm

mcmand wrote:Don't get down on yourself. Being upset is ok. Ruminating and wallowing won't help though. Take all the advice posted above, be strategic about how you're going to improve. And, make some time to do something not law school related once a week that will rejuvenate you. Make sure you're sleeping enough and eating right. Get some exercise, even if it's just a brisk walk. A boost to your mental health will bring the clarity for you to fully engage with learning.

A lot of 1Ls (myself included when I was one) neglect the mental/physical care that supports being successful and able to learn. It makes a huge difference. I promise you that a little time each day on this will go a long way.

Things to avoid: your phone, social media (including TLS other than basic advice threads for improving studying), too much TV, too much law school gossip, alcohol/other substances

Things to do: any easy hobby of yours, exercise, sleep, eating good food/preparing said food, healthy socializing wherever it can fit in your schedule, counseling (if needed)


Yeah I think this was a big component of it. Not sleeping and being hyper anxious really crippled me during those two weeks of tests.

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Re: below median 1L T-14. What's next?

Postby thesealocust » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:18 pm

jeje99 wrote:After beating myself up for about 2 weeks and reluctantly applying to jobs I think I won't get, I decided to try to turn things around and attempt to be more productive in addressing this. I've already messaged 2 of my professors to review scores. As the subject says, 1L at a lower T-14 with bad grades, 3.0 on about a 3.2-3.3 scale. (lowest grades in civil procedure & legal research course)
Other than reviewing my test scores, is there anyway to really begin addressing my issues from last semester before the spring semester starts? I ran out of time outlining last year, and spent too much time reading/not practicing tests. Really just depressed and not feeling great right now, so any advice would help.


As others have already said, all is not lost! It's normal to feel a little down/defeated, but plenty of people improve significantly 2nd semester and you can absolutely be one of them.

It sounds like time management is an issue - there's a large volume of work, and you've got to plan accordingly and keep yourself on task. Think about finishing reading/outlining early, and don't be afraid to start right when the semester does.

Otherwise, the TLS echo chamber advise all applies 2nd semester just like it did 1st semester: grab a copy of Getting to Maybe, read through studying/exam taking advice threads here, and make sure to work on practice exams. Finding people to grade those exams with you and review answers will also help. And work hard, but stay sane: exercise, socialization, outside hobbies, and sleep all count for a lot too.

Talking to professors about your fall exams can be a mixed bag, but it's a good idea to try. Take any specific advice to heart, but also realize that grading is impressionistic/subjective and also relative: it's possible to write a good exam, but wind up with a poor grade because of others writing better exams. That can make professors cagey or distant when you ask for postmortems.

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Re: below median 1L T-14. What's next?

Postby Gus Fring » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:23 am

I'm a urm at a T10 and have a 2.9. I'm devastated at my terrible grades.

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Re: below median 1L T-14. What's next?

Postby mcmand » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:55 am

Gus Fring wrote:I'm a urm at a T10 and have a 2.9. I'm devastated at my terrible grades.


Like I just posted in the other thread you posted in, posting about it endlessly is (1) not going to make you feel better and (2) not going to help you fix it.

Dropping out is unnecessary. Do some self care this long weekend and then make an attack plan for how to improve.

If you need to post again on here, it should be about ideas you need to improve, 1L summer job tips, OCI tips (start networking now!), and other constructive things that will help you succeed. If you're looking for a pity train, it's not gonna happen. We gave you the pat on the back, now get to it.
Last edited by mcmand on Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BigZuck

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Re: below median 1L T-14. What's next?

Postby BigZuck » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:38 pm

Focus on improving your grades next semester and then focus on applying to the NYC firms with huge class sizes/that don't care about grades as much. If someone brings it up just point out which grades were the lowest and be like "LOL litigators amirite?" and then the interviewer will high five you and you're golden.

I'm just barely kidding, they probably won't actually high five you.

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Re: below median 1L T-14. What's next?

Postby carsondalywashere » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:19 pm

thesealocust wrote:
jeje99 wrote:After beating myself up for about 2 weeks and reluctantly applying to jobs I think I won't get, I decided to try to turn things around and attempt to be more productive in addressing this. I've already messaged 2 of my professors to review scores. As the subject says, 1L at a lower T-14 with bad grades, 3.0 on about a 3.2-3.3 scale. (lowest grades in civil procedure & legal research course)
Other than reviewing my test scores, is there anyway to really begin addressing my issues from last semester before the spring semester starts? I ran out of time outlining last year, and spent too much time reading/not practicing tests. Really just depressed and not feeling great right now, so any advice would help.


As others have already said, all is not lost! It's normal to feel a little down/defeated, but plenty of people improve significantly 2nd semester and you can absolutely be one of them.

It sounds like time management is an issue - there's a large volume of work, and you've got to plan accordingly and keep yourself on task. Think about finishing reading/outlining early, and don't be afraid to start right when the semester does.

Otherwise, the TLS echo chamber advise all applies 2nd semester just like it did 1st semester: grab a copy of Getting to Maybe, read through studying/exam taking advice threads here, and make sure to work on practice exams. Finding people to grade those exams with you and review answers will also help. And work hard, but stay sane: exercise, socialization, outside hobbies, and sleep all count for a lot too.

Talking to professors about your fall exams can be a mixed bag, but it's a good idea to try. Take any specific advice to heart, but also realize that grading is impressionistic/subjective and also relative: it's possible to write a good exam, but wind up with a poor grade because of others writing better exams. That can make professors cagey or distant when you ask for postmortems.


I got exactly median, and I'm not sure how I would do things differently. I read all the TLS success threads and Getting to Maybe (and took that advice to heart), started outlining in October, and did many practice tests and hypos for each class. How can I find new ways to study?
Last edited by carsondalywashere on Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: below median 1L T-14. What's next?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:40 pm

talk to your professors - thesealocust is right that this can be a mixed bag, but if you talk to enough professors hopefully you will get enough information to give you a sense of what you're missing. Typically, it's probably either that you're missing issues, or that you spot the issues but don't go far enough with your analysis. Also, how did you do the practice tests/hypos? Did you have other people to help check you on what you were missing, or did you do them by yourself? Going through things collectively with other people can be a really good way to realize where your blind spots are (either in spotting issues or fully analyzing them). If possible, see if any of your profs next semester will look at one of your practice answers before the final (not all profs will do this but it's very helpful if they will).

Also keep in mind that the way law school grading is designed, the majority of students are going to end up at median.

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Re: below median 1L T-14. What's next?

Postby mcmand » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:52 pm

If you're struggling with alcohol or mental health/depression/anxiety, talk to your doc. No joke, it will help to get counseling, or meds if you need them. It made a difference for me late in 1L.
Last edited by mcmand on Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: below median 1L T-14. What's next?

Postby carsondalywashere » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:20 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:well, 1) maybe try abstaining from excessive drinking, and 2) talk to your professors - thesealocust is right that this can be a mixed bag, but if you talk to enough professors hopefully you will get enough information to give you a sense of what you're missing. Typically, it's probably either that you're missing issues, or that you spot the issues but don't go far enough with your analysis. Also, how did you do the practice tests/hypos? Did you have other people to help check you on what you were missing, or did you do them by yourself? Going through things collectively with other people can be a really good way to realize where your blind spots are (either in spotting issues or fully analyzing them). If possible, see if any of your profs next semester will look at one of your practice answers before the final (not all profs will do this but it's very helpful if they will).

Also keep in mind that the way law school grading is designed, the majority of students are going to end up at median.

I have scheduled meetings with my profs. Will be interesting to see what they say.

For hypos, I would either take them into my professor or look over with a TA or my peers. Thinking back on it, I would misapply stuff like tests in Civ Pro somewhat frequently. I tried to get around that by arguing in the alternative ("if it doesn't go this way, then this would happen" etc.), but maybe my rationale for why it should go one way is fucked up.

We'll see on Tuesday. Median isn't a bad place to be, but I don't want to be content with that.
Last edited by carsondalywashere on Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: below median 1L T-14. What's next?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:33 pm

what do you mean by misapplying the tests? Applying the wrong test (like applying the standard for motion to dismiss to a motion for summary judgment) or getting the test wrong? If it's the latter it sounds like you may need to go back and drill the black letter law. If it's the former, some profs would give you credit for getting the standard/analysis for a motion to dismiss right even if it's the wrong test, but others wouldn't.

And there's definitely time to improve next semester.

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Re: below median 1L T-14. What's next?

Postby carsondalywashere » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:39 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:what do you mean by misapplying the tests? Applying the wrong test (like applying the standard for motion to dismiss to a motion for summary judgment) or getting the test wrong? If it's the latter it sounds like you may need to go back and drill the black letter law. If it's the former, some profs would give you credit for getting the standard/analysis for a motion to dismiss right even if it's the wrong test, but others wouldn't.

And there's definitely time to improve next semester.

Right test, but not analyzed the right way.

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Re: below median 1L T-14. What's next?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:43 pm

Yeah, that sounds like you need to go back and strengthen your understanding of the black letter law, then (a lot of TLS preaches that BLL isn't hard and applying law to fact is all the matters etc etc but it still requires getting the content down before moving on to applying it).

But again, check with your profs to see if that's what they feel was the issue (again, if they'll tell you).

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Re: below median 1L T-14. What's next?

Postby carsondalywashere » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:45 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Yeah, that sounds like you need to go back and strengthen your understanding of the black letter law, then (a lot of TLS preaches that BLL isn't hard and applying law to fact is all the matters etc etc but some of it getting the content down before moving on to applying it).

But again, check with your profs to see if that's what they feel was the issue (again, if they'll tell you).

I wouldn't be surprised if this ends up being my issue, as that was my philosophy last semester.

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Re: below median 1L T-14. What's next?

Postby okaygo » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:51 pm

carsondalywashere wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Yeah, that sounds like you need to go back and strengthen your understanding of the black letter law, then (a lot of TLS preaches that BLL isn't hard and applying law to fact is all the matters etc etc but some of it getting the content down before moving on to applying it).

But again, check with your profs to see if that's what they feel was the issue (again, if they'll tell you).

I wouldn't be surprised if this ends up being my issue, as that was my philosophy last semester.



So much this. TLS wisdom lead me astray for the first and only time when it came to 1L grades because I did NOT have the BLL down, and instead I thought that since my exam was open book/open outline at my T10 I could work my way through the law and jump to straight analysis. Semester after semester, that proved incorrect and I never found a way to properly self correct. Between not being able to differentiate between what issues deserve the most time, and misapplying the law entirely I earned a lot of B+/Bs in my day. Eventually, I found professors I clicked with and broke median on paper classes, but still struggled in other classes so my GPA overall was never stellar.

FWIW, I still landed a V20 in NYC through OCI and am very happy. So try not to stress or be too hard on yourself. Hopefully, three years from now you’ll barely remember this stress.

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Re: below median 1L T-14. What's next?

Postby carsondalywashere » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:57 pm

okaygo wrote:
carsondalywashere wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Yeah, that sounds like you need to go back and strengthen your understanding of the black letter law, then (a lot of TLS preaches that BLL isn't hard and applying law to fact is all the matters etc etc but some of it getting the content down before moving on to applying it).

But again, check with your profs to see if that's what they feel was the issue (again, if they'll tell you).

I wouldn't be surprised if this ends up being my issue, as that was my philosophy last semester.



So much this. TLS wisdom lead me astray for the first and only time when it came to 1L grades because I did NOT have the BLL down, and instead I thought that since my exam was open book/open outline at my T10 I could work my way through the law and jump to straight analysis. Semester after semester, that proved incorrect and I never found a way to properly self correct. Between not being able to differentiate between what issues deserve the most time, and misapplying the law entirely I earned a lot of B+/Bs in my day. Eventually, I found professors I clicked with and broke median on paper classes, but still struggled in other classes so my GPA overall was never stellar.

FWIW, I still landed a V20 in NYC through OCI and am very happy. So try not to stress or be too hard on yourself. Hopefully, three years from now you’ll barely remember this stress.


Jesus Christ, glad I'm reading this now.

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Re: below median 1L T-14. What's next?

Postby Keilz » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:04 am

okaygo wrote:
carsondalywashere wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Yeah, that sounds like you need to go back and strengthen your understanding of the black letter law, then (a lot of TLS preaches that BLL isn't hard and applying law to fact is all the matters etc etc but some of it getting the content down before moving on to applying it).

But again, check with your profs to see if that's what they feel was the issue (again, if they'll tell you).

I wouldn't be surprised if this ends up being my issue, as that was my philosophy last semester.



So much this. TLS wisdom lead me astray for the first and only time when it came to 1L grades because I did NOT have the BLL down, and instead I thought that since my exam was open book/open outline at my T10 I could work my way through the law and jump to straight analysis. Semester after semester, that proved incorrect and I never found a way to properly self correct. Between not being able to differentiate between what issues deserve the most time, and misapplying the law entirely I earned a lot of B+/Bs in my day. Eventually, I found professors I clicked with and broke median on paper classes, but still struggled in other classes so my GPA overall was never stellar.

FWIW, I still landed a V20 in NYC through OCI and am very happy. So try not to stress or be too hard on yourself. Hopefully, three years from now you’ll barely remember this stress.


Does this mean like you wouldn’t put th rule down?



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