My Failing Out Of Law School Experience

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Gunner19
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Re: My Failing Out Of Law School Experience

Postby Gunner19 » Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:05 pm

Ok, now I'm seeing the disconnect. I think Cav, myself, and the rest of the legal profession have an entirely different definition of "good employment outcomes," which you seem to simply define as "employed." Drexel is not a well regarded law school no matter what you say, so you will find no apology here.

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DorkothyParker
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Re: My Failing Out Of Law School Experience

Postby DorkothyParker » Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:22 pm

What do you genuinely love? How do you plan to pursue your next goals?
Can you tell me about a time in your past where you wanted something and *did* work hard to achieve it?

b290
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Re: My Failing Out Of Law School Experience

Postby b290 » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:00 pm

jasperjones wrote:You have to work. Hard. Smart people who do not work hard will not succeed. Stupid people who work hard will succeed.

This is a life lesson ...anywhere (provided you’re not bankrolled by your parents). If this is meant to be cathartic, good. However, “don’t do it if you’re not motivated” is different from lack of motivation due to failure. A little research beforehand will solve that problem. Failure to plan is planning to fail. Although law school’s towards an end, it relates little to actual legal practice; under the old English system, you learned as an apprentice. You just go through it. At every stage, you’ll learn that you could’ve “done things easier.” That’s life.

As further proof law school’s relevance to practice some states (like NY) don’t require a degree for a license (e.g. NY - a 1L + 3 yr apprenticeship). Pass (bar exam), work for 3-5 years and waive (admit w/o exam) into, or do Federal practice, in almost anywhere in the county. Congratulations, you got a law license without a law school degree. It’s HOW you do things that determines success/failure.

Failing out can be avoided simply by shadowing a practicing lawyer (the goal), finding out “how” to properly study (the process), and why you’re going to law school (the reason). Again - how you do things.

It’s a bit early for anyone else (including the OP) to extrapolate. Law school failure reverberates for years, if not a lifetime. To make anything out of it now would be akin to predicting a Hall of Fame career on a breakout season.

Legal practice isn’t uni-faceted. Judges, transactional attorneys, state-appointed counsel, legislators, rights advocates, et al, do different things. Most work’s (research, pleadings, arguments, etc.) done for you. Even as a solo, ask a (licensed) buddy and get what you need. Problems have no particular solution. You don’t need law school to tell you that.

Legal practice is helping people/entities so that they don’t royally fuck it up (anymore). It’s more about the system’s setup than stupidity - but there will always be work because fuck-ups happen. Also, your job as an attorney & counselor at law is to either be your client’s magician (make things go away) or provide your client’s graceful exit (negotiation & settlement). That’s it. Anything else gained is a bonus.

Your can make your life easier by knowing the right people. I failed out (a decade ago). I came back, graduated, passed the bar exam (for one of my states), am filling out my Character & Fitness, and have work lined up already. All possible because I found someone helpful. Another life lesson you don’t need law school for.

May you all find success in your paths in life.

My $.02

jasperjones
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Re: My Failing Out Of Law School Experience

Postby jasperjones » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:35 pm

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cavalier1138
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Re: My Failing Out Of Law School Experience

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:30 pm

jasperjones wrote:If your infatuation with Drexel is to tire me down into conceding that it's not a "top" law school, well, you've succeeded. You're right, it's not the best law school in its region, let alone its own city. It is, however, full of distinguished, respected professors, some of the brightest young people I've been around, in a world-class city, and is not a school to which I would advise prospective 1Ls against applying.


Every school is full of "distinguished, respected professors," but if it isn't even the best local school in a not-overlarge area, it's probably not worth getting in to debt for. Drexel's employment outcomes are pretty standard for a school of its caliber: about 1/4 of the class aren't employed as lawyers on graduation, and those that are employed are mostly in extremely small firms or local government. There's nothing wrong with that, unless those students are also all on a full scholarship (data says they aren't), because without that, their debt will be near-impossible to manage.

Again, kudos on figuring out early that you shouldn't have been in law school, but I can guarantee that if you'd sought advice on these forums, people would have told you not to go to Drexel for that price in the first place.

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pancakes3
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Re: My Failing Out Of Law School Experience

Postby pancakes3 » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:49 pm

genuine question:

from what i've read you've only detailed your study habits during the semester. what did you do to prep for exams? did you prep for exams?

did you do anything differently second semester than what you did your first semester? you seem to have enough of a handle on how other students prepared. did you just... not do that?

jasperjones
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Re: My Failing Out Of Law School Experience

Postby jasperjones » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:42 pm

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muscleboundlaw
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Re: My Failing Out Of Law School Experience

Postby muscleboundlaw » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:50 pm

jasperjones wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:genuine question:

from what i've read you've only detailed your study habits during the semester. what did you do to prep for exams? did you prep for exams?

did you do anything differently second semester than what you did your first semester? you seem to have enough of a handle on how other students prepared. did you just... not do that?


My exam prep included making outlines for my classes and putting together any material I was allowed to use on the exams. However, without useful note-taking or a firm grasp on the material during the semester, my last-second efforts were done in vain. I think I put in about the same amount of effort from my first to second semesters, but when you're talking about the difference in D and D+ averages, the change is really insignificant.

And no, I did not prepare in the way a successful student should. I didn't prepare well during the semester and even though I put in more efforts during crunch time, not having a strong foundation made my last ditch efforts a non-factor.


Going to piggy back- when you made your outlines, did you make them and create hypos/ take exams as you went along? Or did you just make an outline, and go over it a bunch of times in hopes of memorizing the rules?

jasperjones
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Re: My Failing Out Of Law School Experience

Postby jasperjones » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:47 pm

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Bubbles1012
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Re: My Failing Out Of Law School Experience

Postby Bubbles1012 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:06 am

Congrats to OP on doing something they like better, but you must have the worst work ethic, like literally ever, and work ethic tends to follow you in everything you do, not just law school. You need to get it together.

I had really poor work ethic in undergrad. I almost flunked out from partying too hard. My work ethic is still not the best. I go to class about 35% of the time and I don’t do the readings as they are assigned, but you better believe by Halloween I am reading E&Es and supplements and learning an outline cold. It’s served me just fine. I’m top 20% and going to a big law firm. I was also extremely ill with an ectopic pregnancy one semester and still managed to keep my grades up. Law school is not that hard and it doesn’t require that much work if you study smart. You can lay in bed with an E&E and an outline, I do it all the time. I may just have a brain that is better suited to understanding these concepts and retaining them, and for that I am grateful, but OP is not normal. If your work ethic is that horrendous I don’t know why you would ever go to law school.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: My Failing Out Of Law School Experience

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:51 am

muscleboundlaw wrote:
jasperjones wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:genuine question:

from what i've read you've only detailed your study habits during the semester. what did you do to prep for exams? did you prep for exams?

did you do anything differently second semester than what you did your first semester? you seem to have enough of a handle on how other students prepared. did you just... not do that?


My exam prep included making outlines for my classes and putting together any material I was allowed to use on the exams. However, without useful note-taking or a firm grasp on the material during the semester, my last-second efforts were done in vain. I think I put in about the same amount of effort from my first to second semesters, but when you're talking about the difference in D and D+ averages, the change is really insignificant.

And no, I did not prepare in the way a successful student should. I didn't prepare well during the semester and even though I put in more efforts during crunch time, not having a strong foundation made my last ditch efforts a non-factor.


Going to piggy back- when you made your outlines, did you make them and create hypos/ take exams as you went along? Or did you just make an outline, and go over it a bunch of times in hopes of memorizing the rules?

I really don’t think it’s helpful for you to follow what the OP says too closely. It’s fine for him to talk about why he left and the like, but this is someone who failed out of law school after the first year, and different people succeed (or fail) in lots of different ways. Don’t try to read what will happen to you in the tea leaves of the experience of a very different person at a very different school.

(Also people’s he’s not Manali, though I suppose there could be some influence via the school.)

jasperjones
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Re: My Failing Out Of Law School Experience

Postby jasperjones » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:53 am

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: My Failing Out Of Law School Experience

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:58 am

Schools choose whether they want to enforce that ABA guideline or not. Plenty don’t. There are any number of people who find they don’t need to attend class much to learn the material well enough to do well on an exam. I’m not one of them, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

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Re: My Failing Out Of Law School Experience

Postby jasperjones » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:06 am

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Bubbles1012
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Re: My Failing Out Of Law School Experience

Postby Bubbles1012 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:22 am

jasperjones wrote:
Bubbles1012 wrote:Congrats to OP on doing something they like better, but you must have the worst work ethic, like literally ever, and work ethic tends to follow you in everything you do, not just law school. You need to get it together.

I had really poor work ethic in undergrad. I almost flunked out from partying too hard. My work ethic is still not the best. I go to class about 35% of the time and I don’t do the readings as they are assigned, but you better believe by Halloween I am reading E&Es and supplements and learning an outline cold. It’s served me just fine. I’m top 20% and going to a big law firm. I was also extremely ill with an ectopic pregnancy one semester and still managed to keep my grades up. Law school is not that hard and it doesn’t require that much work if you study smart. You can lay in bed with an E&E and an outline, I do it all the time. I may just have a brain that is better suited to understanding these concepts and retaining them, and for that I am grateful, but OP is not normal. If your work ethic is that horrendous I don’t know why you would ever go to law school.


It sounds like you're taking the hard line on people not being able to pursue something else and realizing better results. I'd just tell you I disagree.

I'm happy to hear you say you've turned your past negative habits around that you say you're having success in law school, but if you only go to class 35% of the time then I think you may be in trouble; the ABA stipulates that any student at one of its accredited law schools who fails to attend 80% of any class will fail that class.

At any rate, best of luck in school and mazel tov on the newborn.


OP seems to be an articulate individual. He can be successful at anything I’m sure, including Law school, if he’s willing to work hard. No one is successful without hard work. That’s just the way it is. Based on OP’s posts he sounds like he is allergic to hard work. He admits it himself he did basically nothing in undergrad and law school. I learned the hard way that I needed to get it together. It’s easy to say I didn’t work hard because it’s not for me, but given he also approached undergrad the same way, he needs to seriously overhaul the way he tackles things here on forward otherwise he will continue to literally fail. And my law school does not enforce ABA requirements regarding attendance, but when it comes to the stuff that matters, like finals, I make sure to put in the blood, swear, and tears.

cavalier1138
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Re: My Failing Out Of Law School Experience

Postby cavalier1138 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:13 am

jasperjones wrote:Even though I stand by the advice I doled out, you're partly right, Nony. The original post was hardly meant to be one to which readers could turn to gain insight on how to tackle law school in the most efficient way. When I was a nervous second semester 1L I sought the web for a law students who may have been in similar boats as me. Some of their posts I found helpful, others less so. Although I hope there haven't been many of us, I doubt I was the first law student to have gone through this experience nor do I think I'll be the last. Hopefully other law students who are afraid they might be heading toward the same path I did know that it's happened before, and they can come to their own conclusions about what to do about it.


But see, that was a dumb idea. Why would you seek out law students who were in the same boat as you? You had already gotten a sub-2.0 GPA your first semester; you should have been seeking help from people who had actually figured their shit out.

There's no problem with you reminding people that law might not be the right choice for them. Most 0Ls could use that reminder before they start accruing debt for an education they don't really want. But you clearly don't have the first clue when it comes to performing well in law school, and other readers here should be extremely wary of following anything resembling advice from you on that front. There are plenty of guides to exam prep on this forum from students who did well in school; there's no need to add a guide from someone who observed their peers and thinks they figured out the keys to success (though apparently never bothered to use them).

b290
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Re: My Failing Out Of Law School Experience

Postby b290 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:08 am

Bubbles1012 wrote:Congrats to OP on doing something they like better, but you must have the worst work ethic, like literally ever, and work ethic tends to follow you in everything you do, not just law school. You need to get it together.

Bubbles1012 wrote:No one is successful without hard work. That’s just the way it is. Based on OP’s posts he sounds like he is allergic to hard work. He admits it himself he did basically nothing in undergrad and law school. I learned the hard way that I needed to get it together. It’s easy to say I didn’t work hard because it’s not for me, but given he also approached undergrad the same way, he needs to seriously overhaul the way he tackles things here on forward otherwise he will continue to literally fail [...] when it comes to the stuff that matters, like finals, I make sure to put in the blood, swear, and tears.

cavalier1138 wrote:There's no problem with you reminding people that law might not be the right choice for them. [ ... ] But you clearly don't have the first clue when it comes to performing well in law school, and other readers here should be extremely wary of following anything resembling advice from you on that front.

As someone who’s failed out (of law school), come back and graduated, I agree 100%. OP, you can’t say “you might not succeed, look at something else” when you’ve just failed, the reason’s particular to you, and then offer it all as general advice. You can’t even clarify until years after. Anything else is (at minimum) negligent misrepresentation.

Also, going into law school with no notion of what the job entails and what it takes to get there - in the Information Age - is in of itself, lazy. Disillusionment is just a symptom.

Someone asked this before: What are you doing now that you “love”? How are you moving on from your experience? Those would’ve been far more useful as advice, yet it’s completely absent.

My $.02

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pancakes3
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Re: My Failing Out Of Law School Experience

Postby pancakes3 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:21 am

fuck this thread. OP now has a bunch of 1L's a freaking out that they're not prepping enough. OP claims that he's trying to help others that have failed by sharing his experiences but he's not.

He's offered zero info on his life after failing and only provided a bunch of armchair study advice for studying while in law school.

Having dogshit class notes and only prepping via an outline is absolutely sufficient to do well in exams. I don't know what else the OP is holding out on but skipping readings and not taking class notes is not the reason he failed. (like, there aren't even any class notes to be had in LRW).

b290
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Re: My Failing Out Of Law School Experience

Postby b290 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:38 am

pancakes3 wrote:fuck this thread. OP now has a bunch of 1L's a freaking out that they're not prepping enough. OP claims that he's trying to help others that have failed by sharing his experiences but he's not.

He's offered zero info on his life after failing and only provided a bunch of armchair study advice for studying while in law school.

Having dogshit class notes and only prepping via an outline is absolutely sufficient to do well in exams. I don't know what else the OP is holding out on but skipping readings and not taking class notes is not the reason he failed. (like, there aren't even any class notes to be had in LRW).

Agreed, with a caveat. All the info in the world is useless if you don’t use it properly. But when I failed out, I was in no position to offer advice. Heck, I can only give advice now to show that it’s possible to reverse that.

You’re right to point it out though. No info on why OP went to law school, and none on after. Even then, not much on the experience - which is expected because...OP just failed out.

My $.02

jasperjones
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Re: My Failing Out Of Law School Experience

Postby jasperjones » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:01 pm

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jasperjones
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Re: My Failing Out Of Law School Experience

Postby jasperjones » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:02 pm

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jasperjones
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Re: My Failing Out Of Law School Experience

Postby jasperjones » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:02 pm

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jasperjones
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Re: My Failing Out Of Law School Experience

Postby jasperjones » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:05 pm

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pancakes3
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Re: My Failing Out Of Law School Experience

Postby pancakes3 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:55 pm

jasperjones wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:fuck this thread. OP now has a bunch of 1L's a freaking out that they're not prepping enough. OP claims that he's trying to help others that have failed by sharing his experiences but he's not.

He's offered zero info on his life after failing and only provided a bunch of armchair study advice for studying while in law school.

Having dogshit class notes and only prepping via an outline is absolutely sufficient to do well in exams. I don't know what else the OP is holding out on but skipping readings and not taking class notes is not the reason he failed. (like, there aren't even any class notes to be had in LRW).


Pancakes, having “dogshit” notes and only preparing an outline is sufficient to succeed on exams? I guess you came into law school with more natural gifts than me, and if you succeeded preparing that way, then kudos, but that’s not a tip I would give to any student, no matter how gifted they are. Anyway, as I mentioned before, that was not the extent my preparation, or lack of it. What you’re not mentioning, as I did, was my intermittent attendance and failure to keep up with the readings. Still, I cannot see a law student having success in school preparing the way I did, which I’ve recommended any student seeking success in school against doing, or the way you seem to be.


this why your thread is toxic. you're in no position to give tips about law school success. i don't know about natural gifts but there are dozens of posters on this site spanning dozens of schools who prepped for finals solely by virtue of making an outline. there are many who don't even make outlines (especially 2Ls and 3Ls). you doing poorly your first semester and then doing worse your second semester means there is something fundamentally flawed in your legal reasoning that has little to do with preparation.

you're just assuming that since you observed your classmates working harder than you and had better class notes then that must be the difference-maker when truthfully it is probably something different all together.

basically it boils down to what you're trying to accomplish with this thread.
- if it's to create a safe place for others who failed out and can come commiserate, you've failed by placing the focus on you giving out study tips rather than focusing on how there is life after law school, and that success is not dependent on LS grades (which I fully support).
- if it's for you to share your story as a cautionary tale for 0L's before they go to law school, you've failed also. instead of us pulling teeth with you and getting to the root of your motivational issues (your passion for fitness or whatever) you should have led with it.
- if it's for you to share your wisdom on 1L studying, then you can just sit on your advice bc it really isn't necessary as there are more qualified posters to address that issue than you.

there is no doubt that you have to prepare for finals, but the universal consensus is that whatever prep you put in during September and October account for like 5% of your grades. the real work comes in November and December with your outline. That alone will get most students to the median grade. Doing practice exams, going to the prof and talking things out, and whatever natural gifts that match with the demands of writing an exam pushes it to getting A's.

cavalier1138
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Re: My Failing Out Of Law School Experience

Postby cavalier1138 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:17 pm

Pancakes nailed it.

I'll just add that it is absurd for you to think that you would be a good resource for law students who want to do well (or avoid failing out, take your pick). Your way of dealing with your bad grades was to do the exact opposite of what you should have done, and not-at-all-shockingly, you did worse. You're now claiming that you want to offer prospective law students the chance to learn from your experience, when the most useful application of your story is to show 0Ls the importance of the "know thyself" principle in deciding to go to law school.




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