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Where's the Line on Plagiarism When Quoting A See Cite?

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:18 am
by Kummel
There's a case I'm using, case X, for a motion and in case X it has a See cite, See case Y ("quote from case Y"). The See cite is a pure quote from case Y and is exactly the quote I want, but when the judge goes to read case X, he will see that exact See cite of case Y. Do I need to quote case X to take the see cite?

Re: Where's the Line on Plagiarism When Quoting A See Cite?

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:45 am
by RCSOB657
1.6c might help according to this Gtown prompt

Full cites within cites.

Then again, might not help


Often, you want to indicate that a particular case or authority either is quoted in or quotes
another authority. If you use “quoted in,” the phrase follows the cite, is separated from it by a
comma, and is underlined (memo) or italicized (law review): Doe v. Johnson, 1111 F.3d 111
(14th Cir. 2001), quoted in Smith v. Roe, 1112 F.3d 222 (14th Cir. 2002). If, however, you use
“quoting,” the phrase is used in a parenthetical in plain type, i.e., not underlined or italicized:
Smith v. Roe, 1112 F.3d 222 (14th Cir. 2002) (quoting Doe v. Johnson, 1111 F.3d 111 (14th Cir.
2001)).

Re: Where's the Line on Plagiarism When Quoting A See Cite?

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:50 am
by Nebby
Kummel wrote:There's a case I'm using, case X, for a motion and in case X it has a See cite, See case Y ("quote from case Y"). The See cite is a pure quote from case Y and is exactly the quote I want, but when the judge goes to read case X, he will see that exact See cite of case Y. Do I need to quote case X to take the see cite?

Are both case x and y the same court? I.e., same circuit/appellate division?

Re: Where's the Line on Plagiarism When Quoting A See Cite?

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:52 am
by Kummel
Nebby wrote:
Kummel wrote:There's a case I'm using, case X, for a motion and in case X it has a See cite, See case Y ("quote from case Y"). The See cite is a pure quote from case Y and is exactly the quote I want, but when the judge goes to read case X, he will see that exact See cite of case Y. Do I need to quote case X to take the see cite?

Are both case x and y the same court? I.e., same circuit/appellate division?


No case x is in another circuit, 5th, which takes a unique position and the only other circuit taking that position is the 11th, case y, and the 11th case is what I want to see cite...

Re: Where's the Line on Plagiarism When Quoting A See Cite?

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:21 am
by Nebby
Kummel wrote:
Nebby wrote:
Kummel wrote:There's a case I'm using, case X, for a motion and in case X it has a See cite, See case Y ("quote from case Y"). The See cite is a pure quote from case Y and is exactly the quote I want, but when the judge goes to read case X, he will see that exact See cite of case Y. Do I need to quote case X to take the see cite?

Are both case x and y the same court? I.e., same circuit/appellate division?


No case x is in another circuit, 5th, which takes a unique position and the only other circuit taking that position is the 11th, case y, and the 11th case is what I want to see cite...

What circuit is your motion in?

Re: Where's the Line on Plagiarism When Quoting A See Cite?

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:37 am
by Kummel
Nebby wrote:
Kummel wrote:
Nebby wrote:
Kummel wrote:There's a case I'm using, case X, for a motion and in case X it has a See cite, See case Y ("quote from case Y"). The See cite is a pure quote from case Y and is exactly the quote I want, but when the judge goes to read case X, he will see that exact See cite of case Y. Do I need to quote case X to take the see cite?

Are both case x and y the same court? I.e., same circuit/appellate division?


No case x is in another circuit, 5th, which takes a unique position and the only other circuit taking that position is the 11th, case y, and the 11th case is what I want to see cite...

What circuit is your motion in?


Third. Basically trying to say this has yet to be addressed in the third and then want to cite these other circuits

Re: Where's the Line on Plagiarism When Quoting A See Cite?

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:27 am
by gregfootball2001
I don't see this as plagiarism. So I understand correctly, you want to cite to case X. You want to do so by quoting case X directly. Other cases (at the least, case Y) have also cited to case X, and have cited the same quote. This isn't plagiarism, it's just multiple people citing to the same useful quote. Frankly, if the quote is that useful, other cases have likely cited to it too. If case Y didn't use a quote, if it had just summarized case X, that'd be different. But merely repeating Albert v. Benny, 12 F. 3d 456 (3rd Cir. 2000) ("This is a totally useful quote!") ? Not plagiarism.

Re: Where's the Line on Plagiarism When Quoting A See Cite?

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:42 am
by Nebby
Kummel wrote:
Nebby wrote:
Kummel wrote:
Nebby wrote:
Kummel wrote:There's a case I'm using, case X, for a motion and in case X it has a See cite, See case Y ("quote from case Y"). The See cite is a pure quote from case Y and is exactly the quote I want, but when the judge goes to read case X, he will see that exact See cite of case Y. Do I need to quote case X to take the see cite?

Are both case x and y the same court? I.e., same circuit/appellate division?


No case x is in another circuit, 5th, which takes a unique position and the only other circuit taking that position is the 11th, case y, and the 11th case is what I want to see cite...

What circuit is your motion in?


Third. Basically trying to say this has yet to be addressed in the third and then want to cite these other circuits

I would cite it like

"Sentence you want to quote." Case X, XXX F.xd XXX, XXX (5th Cir. XXXX) (quoting case Y, YYY F.yd YYY, YYY (11th Cir. YYYY).

Re: Where's the Line on Plagiarism When Quoting A See Cite?

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:53 am
by rpupkin
Kummel wrote:
Nebby wrote:
Kummel wrote:
Nebby wrote:
Kummel wrote:There's a case I'm using, case X, for a motion and in case X it has a See cite, See case Y ("quote from case Y"). The See cite is a pure quote from case Y and is exactly the quote I want, but when the judge goes to read case X, he will see that exact See cite of case Y. Do I need to quote case X to take the see cite?

Are both case x and y the same court? I.e., same circuit/appellate division?


No case x is in another circuit, 5th, which takes a unique position and the only other circuit taking that position is the 11th, case y, and the 11th case is what I want to see cite...

What circuit is your motion in?


Third. Basically trying to say this has yet to be addressed in the third and then want to cite these other circuits

There's no plagiarism issue here. Just write something like:

The X position has been adopted by two other circuits. See DaRascal v Mods, 42 F.3d 321, 324 (11th Cir. 2005) ("[QUOTE]"); Rpupkin v Mods, 111 F.3d 442 (5th Cir. 2008) (citing and quoting DaRascal, 42 F.3d at 324).

I'm a little confused from your description about which case came first. Obviously swap the above if the 5th circuit case came first and the 11th circuit case quotes it.

Re: Where's the Line on Plagiarism When Quoting A See Cite?

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:59 am
by rpupkin
Nebby wrote:I would cite it like

"Sentence you want to quote." Case X, XXX F.xd XXX, XXX (5th Cir. XXXX) (quoting case Y, YYY F.yd YYY, YYY (11th Cir. YYYY).

This works too. But if you're trying to make the point that two other circuits have adopted the rule, I'd cite them as I suggested in the previous post.

Re: Where's the Line on Plagiarism When Quoting A See Cite?

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:48 pm
by Nebby
rpupkin wrote:
Nebby wrote:I would cite it like

"Sentence you want to quote." Case X, XXX F.xd XXX, XXX (5th Cir. XXXX) (quoting case Y, YYY F.yd YYY, YYY (11th Cir. YYYY).

This works too. But if you're trying to make the point that two other circuits have adopted the rule, I'd cite them as I suggested in the previous post.

Same.

Re: Where's the Line on Plagiarism When Quoting A See Cite?

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:27 pm
by Kummel
rpupkin wrote:There's no plagiarism issue here. Just write something like:

The X position has been adopted by two other circuits. See DaRascal v Mods, 42 F.3d 321, 324 (11th Cir. 2005) ("[quot]"); Rpupkin v Mods, 111 F.3d 442 (5th Cir. 2008) (citing and quoting DaRascal, 42 F.3d at 324).

I'm a little confused from your description about which case came first. Obviously swap the above if the 5th circuit case came first and the 11th circuit case quotes it.


Okay this is super helpful thanks, that's what I'll do.

What I want to cite is basically a line in a 5th Circuit case, Rpupkin v Mods, 111 F.3d 442 (5th Cir. 2008), which is:

Alts should be banned. See DaRascal v Mods, 42 F.3d 321, 324 (11th Cir. 2005) ("Alts undermine the purpose of a forum and should be banned")


Your suggestion seems to totally solve it