Exam Bank Exchange

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jsmith345
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Exam Bank Exchange

Postby jsmith345 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:46 pm

Is it unethical to exchange login info for exam banks? If not, does anyone want to exchange with me? 0L at a T35 school and have my school exam bank's login info.

IExistedOnceBefore
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Re: Exam Bank Exchange

Postby IExistedOnceBefore » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:57 am

jsmith345 wrote: 0L at a T35 school and have my school exam bank's login info.


Slow down there cowboy. Practice tests are helpful for you to learn the prof. You should have no need to go into others unless it's a visiting professor from another school or a new prof. In the latter E&Es are helpful along with other classmates.

Also try not to look at the exams for at least three weeks. There's no point until much later but I figure you can at least go three weeks?

jsmith345
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Re: Exam Bank Exchange

Postby jsmith345 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:24 am

Yeah I hear you but my school's exam bank gives me no (or minimal) exposure to my professors' exams. Also my entire regimen is going to be built around exam taking. I'll learn the law from class, studying before school starts, and from consulting the hornbook/whatever else during the semester. The vast majority of work I'll do will be taking practice exams and reviewing them with the help of supplements, so I need as many hypos as possible. I understand there are a billion 1L hypos floating around but the more the better.

cavalier1138
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Re: Exam Bank Exchange

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:23 am

jsmith345 wrote:Yeah I hear you but my school's exam bank gives me no (or minimal) exposure to my professors' exams. Also my entire regimen is going to be built around exam taking. I'll learn the law from class, studying before school starts, and from consulting the hornbook/whatever else during the semester. The vast majority of work I'll do will be taking practice exams and reviewing them with the help of supplements, so I need as many hypos as possible. I understand there are a billion 1L hypos floating around but the more the better.


But unless your professor taught elsewhere, practicing using other exams is a bad idea. So yes, people regularly exchange exam bank logins, but if you're just doing it to get as many random exam questions as you can, it could end up having a bad effect on your score.

Your proposed study plan sounds extremely inefficient. Do what works best for you, but I'd strongly recommend not taking any practice exams until late in the semester. And regardless of what study method you settle on, do not start studying before school starts.

jsmith345
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Re: Exam Bank Exchange

Postby jsmith345 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:40 am

Your advice is probably sound - I don't deny there are different ways to get there. I disagree on not studying before school starts, certainly a risk of inefficiency, but I believe I can do it profitably. The idea is to get a comprehensive basic understanding of the 3 subjects and then begin doing hypos. I'd like to get the basic overview before school starts and be doing exams/problems the whole semester (while also learning the law through class and supplements). I don't plan on reading my casebook very much at all, could be different for Con Law.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Exam Bank Exchange

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:11 am

jsmith345 wrote:Your advice is probably sound - I don't deny there are different ways to get there. I disagree on not studying before school starts, certainly a risk of inefficiency, but I believe I can do it profitably. The idea is to get a comprehensive basic understanding of the 3 subjects and then begin doing hypos. I'd like to get the basic overview before school starts and be doing exams/problems the whole semester (while also learning the law through class and supplements). I don't plan on reading my casebook very much at all, could be different for Con Law.

This is unnecessary and inefficient. It's kind of like trying to teach yourself tap, ballet, and jazz dance in the month before you start at a dance academy - it duplicates a lot of effort for what you will just learn over the course of the semester anyway. And you don't know how you profs teach a subject/what they emphasize until you take their course, so you will probably learn things you don't need to and things your profs actually disagree with.

Recognizing the importance of practice exams is good, but taking practice exams literally all semester is overkill. If you feel compelled to practice hypos from day one, follow along with your class in the E&Es and do those hypos (answers are provided which is key - just taking exam questions without having any way to check your answers isn't that helpful).

Also just do the damn assigned reading.

cavalier1138
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Re: Exam Bank Exchange

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:25 am

jsmith345 wrote:I disagree on not studying before school starts, certainly a risk of inefficiency, but I believe I can do it profitably.


Can you find an example of any high-performing law student who thinks that this is a good idea? Plenty of people have different opinions on the most effective study methods, but there is pretty universal agreement that trying to "study" before school is, at best, a waste of time.

jsmith345 wrote:I'd like to get the basic overview before school starts and be doing exams/problems the whole semester (while also learning the law through class and supplements).


You won't be able to get the basic overview, because that's not how it works. The dance analogy Nony used was pretty spot-on. You can read all you want about Torts, but you aren't going to understand how your professor teaches product liability until you get to it. And the worst possible thing you can do is come in with preconceptions about what the law is. Similarly, doing exams before you've learned the material is equally pointless, because your professor won't subdivide exam questions by topic. As mentioned, doing topic-specific hypos in E&Es (or as assigned by TAs in some courses) can be helpful, but exams are meant to be comprehensive. You'll be spinning your wheels if you try to tackle final exam questions before you've even addressed the issues that those questions raise.

jsmith345 wrote:I don't plan on reading my casebook very much at all, could be different for Con Law.


And again, while there are certainly a variety of opinions on how useful the casebook is compared to E&Es, hornbooks, etc., I don't think you'll find a single successful law student who will tell you to not do the assigned reading for class. As much bitching as you will hear about law professors not knowing how to teach, the vast majority of them do not want to hide the ball and do not assign specific readings for lack of something better to do.

As I said earlier, you'll find what works best. But you should really think about whether you have discovered the secret key to success that no other student before you has even tried or whether people who have already been through 1L might have a better perspective on detrimental study habits.

Gunner19
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Re: Exam Bank Exchange

Postby Gunner19 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:26 am

I know you feel working crazy hard like this all semester will be a good thing, but in reality it's more likely to wear you out. Looking at exams that early in the semester is pointless as you don't know the material and won't be able to spot the issues. You have the right idea, just wait a little bit before you start.

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jaekeem
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Re: Exam Bank Exchange

Postby jaekeem » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:28 am

jsmith345 wrote:I don't plan on reading my casebook very much at all.


Lol

The test is going to be tailored to what the Professor picks out of the casebook. They chose the casebook for a reason.

Follow your heart and do what works best for you, but I can think of few things that strike me as more ineffective than trying to teach yourself the material before school even starts, rather than learning directly from your prof and trying to intimately understand their POV on subject XYZ.

jsmith345
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Re: Exam Bank Exchange

Postby jsmith345 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:52 pm

Class is clearly a centerpiece of the approach I'm advocating. I disagree that a substantial basic grasp of a subject (sufficient for issue spotting) can't be had before school starts. The practice exams I take early on in the process may lack for analysis but I'll be getting valuable issue spotting practice. It will be impossible not to be good at it after a certain point. Ditto with analysis when I gain a better comprehensive grasp of the material (around week 4). I am not planning on ignoring my casebook, just strictly capping the amount of time I spend on reading assignments.

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UVA2B
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Re: Exam Bank Exchange

Postby UVA2B » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:00 pm

jsmith345 wrote:Class is clearly a centerpiece of the approach I'm advocating. I disagree that a substantial basic grasp of a subject (sufficient for issue spotting) can't be had before school starts. The practice exams I take early on in the process may lack for analysis but I'll be getting valuable issue spotting practice. It will be impossible not to be good at it after a certain point. Ditto with analysis when I gain a better comprehensive grasp of the material (around week 4). I am not planning on ignoring my casebook, just strictly capping the amount of time I spend on reading assignments.


You realize you're arguing against law students and practicing attorneys who have actually taken exams telling you not to do something that you think, in theory, would be a good way to approach law school, right?

If a bunch of professional bull fighters tell you not to practice bull fighting by dodging traffic in NYC, are you going to tell them about all of the potential benefits of avoiding cabs and trucks flying by you and how that will translate into bull fighting?

You have no idea how widely disparate law school profs teach subjects (hint: it's HUGE). So while nailing down black letter law in strict liability torts or the insanity defense may sound good in theory, we're telling you it's not only inefficient, it's also possibly time completely wasted and could even be counterproductive to your studies once you get in the game.

But you go ahead tell us how to be successful in law school.

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yyyuppp
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Re: Exam Bank Exchange

Postby yyyuppp » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:14 pm

if you're not taking your profs exams, its kind of a waste because you don't know how he/she wants you to spot issues or even thinks what an issue is- its also likely the exams are way way different than your profs.

If you are using your profs exams, then you are wasting them for when you are studying for finals and actually know what they think the law is and how you should apply it.

in any case, i really don't know how you can get anything form taking an exam which tests you on content you haven't been taught. also, the mechanics of issue spotting aren't something that are hard to learn. what's hard is being clever enough to apply the law you've been taught to novel situations. thats a hard skill to cultivate at all, especially in august before your 1L year when you generally don't even know what the prof. thinks the law is. the good news is that is all totally learnable come November and December.

i've been a 0L, and i understand the desire to just want to do something to help your chances. but honestly i don't think your plan is going to have nearly the value you think it does.

cavalier1138
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Re: Exam Bank Exchange

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:15 pm

jsmith345 wrote:The practice exams I take early on in the process may lack for analysis but I'll be getting valuable issue spotting practice.


Issue spotting doesn't require practice. You could look at a law exam question right now and probably spot issues. You just wouldn't have the first clue which issues are the most important or what to do with the issues you found.

jsmith345 wrote:Ditto with analysis when I gain a better comprehensive grasp of the material (around week 4).


You seem to have an excellent feel for how easily you'll pick up concepts without having been to a single class.

As mentioned in every other post here, you can disagree all you want. But it's silly to pretend that you have a better perspective than people who have already had this experience.

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yyyuppp
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Re: Exam Bank Exchange

Postby yyyuppp » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:22 pm

jsmith345 wrote: when I gain a better comprehensive grasp of the material (around week 4).


also,this isn't going to happen because that is not how learning the law works. you generally learn discrete issues that don't really build on each other. just cuz you learn Rule 12(b) doesn't mean you somehow better understand how discovery works or issue preclusion or the eerie doctrine. learning 4 weeks of subject is learning 4 weeks of the subject- you don't suddenly understand better things you haven't been taught.

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jaekeem
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Re: Exam Bank Exchange

Postby jaekeem » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:25 pm

jsmith345 wrote:Class is clearly a centerpiece of the approach I'm advocating. I disagree that a substantial basic grasp of a subject (sufficient for issue spotting) can't be had before school starts. The practice exams I take early on in the process may lack for analysis but I'll be getting valuable issue spotting practice. It will be impossible not to be good at it after a certain point. Ditto with analysis when I gain a better comprehensive grasp of the material (around week 4). I am not planning on ignoring my casebook, just strictly capping the amount of time I spend on reading assignments.


You're doing it backwards.

Putting the priority on self-teaching from supplements, rather than reading the casebook/prof's intentionally tailored materials, could work, but it is very risky, especially when you have 0 legal background/foundation.

It seems like nothing people tell you will change your mind. Who knows. Maybe you'll get straight As. If you end up with disappointing results after fall, remember this thread.

jsmith345
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Re: Exam Bank Exchange

Postby jsmith345 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:20 pm

I appreciate everyone's input. Will stick to my guns however. If anyone is interested in exchanging exam bank info and your school doesn't have a policy prohibiting it, let me know.

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UVA2B
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Re: Exam Bank Exchange

Postby UVA2B » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:23 pm

Good luck. I hope it works out well for you.

ETA: I'm sorry, but because this sort of thing bothers me, I don't think you actually appreciate what literally everyone here has told you. You're holding none of the cards of experience and dismissing what people with experience are trying to tell you. We have literally zero dog in the fight and we're just trying to help others navigate law school in a way that will be successful, but you seem adamant to disavow yourself of all that advice. That's on you, but don't patronizingly say you appreciate the advice when you're clearly ready to dismiss all of the sound advice you've received. Be willing to tell people more knowledgable than you that you think they are wrong and move on. Don't "stick to your guns." You have no guns, and numerous guns have shot at you telling you why your plan is ill-advised.

/rant

jsmith345
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Re: Exam Bank Exchange

Postby jsmith345 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:51 pm

I wasn't being patronizing, sorry if you thought that. Quite confident I will end up okay. I know what my professors will teach already from outline depot, at most it will be a little different. Later.

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yyyuppp
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Re: Exam Bank Exchange

Postby yyyuppp » Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:09 am

trying to teach yourself a course load's worth of material from old outlines just so you can use some other professor's tests to learn how to "issue spot", which isn't even hard to do, is such a waste of time. what are you going to do? read each sentence and then read every section of the outline to try to figure how the facts in that sentence relate to the entire doctrine, of which you have learned nothing? there is just not value to this exercise. no one i know who did very well 1L year did anything like this- it is so completely unnecessary.

cavalier1138
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Re: Exam Bank Exchange

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:16 am

jsmith345 wrote:I wasn't being patronizing, sorry if you thought that. Quite confident I will end up okay. I know what my professors will teach already from outline depot, at most it will be a little different. Later.


I hope it works out (as in, I hope you're just wasting your time and that this doesn't hurt your grades). Either way, please come back after you get your first round of grades with an update. This would be valuable either as revolutionary new information or as a cautionary tale for other arrogant 0Ls.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Exam Bank Exchange

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:48 am

jsmith345 wrote:I know what my professors will teach already from outline depot.

That's not how you know what your professors will teach, but good luck, I guess.

jsmith345
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Re: Exam Bank Exchange

Postby jsmith345 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:29 pm

Also bear in mind the thread was started to simply ask if anyone wanted to exchange exam bank info. If I had asked for advice, maybe it'd be different.

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jaekeem
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Re: Exam Bank Exchange

Postby jaekeem » Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:16 am

Ya that's fair. That should also tell you how oddball your approach is. We're giving unsolicited advice.

cavalier1138
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Re: Exam Bank Exchange

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:42 pm

A: "Hey guys, anyone out there want to rob a bank together? Definitely don't want to go to jail, so help me out!"

B: "If you don't want to go to jail, maybe you should find some other way to earn money."

A: "Wasn't asking for advice, thanks. Just wanted to know who else was down to rob banks and not go to jail."

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lavarman84
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Re: Exam Bank Exchange

Postby lavarman84 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:07 am

jsmith345 wrote:Class is clearly a centerpiece of the approach I'm advocating. I disagree that a substantial basic grasp of a subject (sufficient for issue spotting) can't be had before school starts. The practice exams I take early on in the process may lack for analysis but I'll be getting valuable issue spotting practice. It will be impossible not to be good at it after a certain point. Ditto with analysis when I gain a better comprehensive grasp of the material (around week 4). I am not planning on ignoring my casebook, just strictly capping the amount of time I spend on reading assignments.


I'm going to join in telling you how bad of a plan this is. What you don't understand is that professors tend to have their own unique ways of teaching the law. Some will only teach a few subjects, so you're wasting your time learning subjects they won't teach. Some teach the law in a way that is different from the way hornbooks teach it, so you're wasting your time learning the law before they taught it to you.

In fact, you might actually hinder your ability to learn the law by going into class thinking you know it. I had professors who arguably were wrong about certain subjects of the law they taught. However, they're the person grading your exam, so you have to tailor your answers to them. Practically, that means you gotta accept what they teach you as fact until you have your grades. What you're doing isn't going to help you with that.

It's both a waste of time and possibly a hindrance. Chill out. Enjoy the time you have before law school. You have plenty of time to learn the law and learn how to take a law school exam. At best, you're wasting your time. At worst, you're going to impair your performance.

I know you think that you know best, but you should reconsider and listen to what people are telling you. I'm not even going to say come back and tell us how you did. If you end up doing well, you still wasted your time by trying to study before law school. If you don't end up doing well, it doesn't really add anything to this topic because the advice on here is always the same, and some 0Ls always choose to ignore it.




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