Drop out? (for int'l student)

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will1103
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Drop out? (for int'l student)

Postby will1103 » Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:34 pm

I am at a T30 and my cumulative GPA for both semesters is 3.3 (3.5 for fall). The only thing I know is that I'm not within the top 33% and probably around median.
Being an international student, it seems there is no possibility to find a 2L job through OCI with this GPA. And as what I heard, it would be extremely difficult for int'l student to find a lawyer job due to the visa issue unless Big law. I still enjoyed my 1L and want to become a lawyer; however, the huge grade drop makes me concern about my future career in the US. I have scholarship for nearly half of the tuition and the living cost in this city is pretty high. My debt for this year is about 50K. Should I just drop out or stick with it and just enjoy the rest of law school? Thx.

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UVA2B
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Re: Drop out? (for int'l student)

Postby UVA2B » Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:49 pm

Can your JD translate to becoming an attorney in your home country? Do you speak a marketable language that could give you even a slight edge in firms that practice internationally?

I'd say dropping out is the financially safer choice, but if you really want to become an attorney and have fallback options if getting a legal job in the US doesn't work out, it might be worth it to stick with it. This will ultimately be a personal decision where you weigh the chances of being a practicing attorney in the US (probably unlikely at median at a T30 considering you're international), the fallback options in your home country, and the prospective debt you're facing. I'm pretty debt averse and would probably just cut my losses if I didn't have solid fallback options if the US didn't work out, but if you're passionate about becoming an attorney and have any possibilities outside of practicing in the U.S. if you graduate without a job here, then that's up to you.

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melmelcoolj
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Re: Drop out? (for int'l student)

Postby melmelcoolj » Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:20 am

will1103 wrote:I am at a T30 and my cumulative GPA for both semesters is 3.3 (3.5 for fall). The only thing I know is that I'm not within the top 33% and probably around median.
Being an international student, it seems there is no possibility to find a 2L job through OCI with this GPA. And as what I heard, it would be extremely difficult for int'l student to find a lawyer job due to the visa issue unless Big law. I still enjoyed my 1L and want to become a lawyer; however, the huge grade drop makes me concern about my future career in the US. I have scholarship for nearly half of the tuition and the living cost in this city is pretty high. My debt for this year is about 50K. Should I just drop out or stick with it and just enjoy the rest of law school? Thx.


Even if you do get visa sponsorship, there is still a 50% chance of not getting H1b. OP, I think you should think long and hard about whether you want to be a lawyer. If you do, try to make it happen in your home country or utilize your network or language skills to land a job. You may not be starting exactly where you wanted, but, if you want to be a lawyer, you will gradually move your way up.

That said, if you don't want to be a lawyer, you are free to walk away.

sanzgo
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Re: Drop out? (for int'l student)

Postby sanzgo » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:44 am

will1103 wrote:I am at a T30 and my cumulative GPA for both semesters is 3.3 (3.5 for fall). The only thing I know is that I'm not within the top 33% and probably around median.
Being an international student, it seems there is no possibility to find a 2L job through OCI with this GPA. And as what I heard, it would be extremely difficult for int'l student to find a lawyer job due to the visa issue unless Big law. I still enjoyed my 1L and want to become a lawyer; however, the huge grade drop makes me concern about my future career in the US. I have scholarship for nearly half of the tuition and the living cost in this city is pretty high. My debt for this year is about 50K. Should I just drop out or stick with it and just enjoy the rest of law school? Thx.


how are you paying for ls? are you getting private loans thru a US cosigner or...?

t30 median very likely won't get you biglaw even if you were a US citizen. even if you're extremely lucky and get a biglaw offer, you're still gambling on the off-chance that you'll make the h1b lottery. the fact you'll even need sponsorship will make it more difficult to get a biglaw offer in the first place. your chances of getting biglaw are pretty much nil IMO.

the only realistic option left that allows you to remain in the US post-graduation is to get a job with certain public-interest employers that are not subject to the H1B cap. whether you get an offer from one of these employers is of course, a gamble in itself.

it is possible to work in your home-country with a US JD but they almost always only hire US JDs with a couple years of US biglaw experience under their belt. a fresh US JD graduate is useless to them so don't bank on being able to find a job in your home-country without any US experience.

i think what this all comes down to is financial debt. are your parents rich and willing to pay off your loans even if things don't work out? or do you have savings (but i assume you wouldn't be taking out loans if you had sizable savings...)? let me list out all the hoops you'll have to jump through:

1) get a biglaw job (unlikely)
or 2) public-interest job that qualifies as not being subject to h1b quota (unlikely)

3) assuming you satisfy 1) or 2), get selected in the h1b lottery (<50% chance)

4) if 1) or 2) don't work out, get a job in home-country as a fresh US JD grad (VERY unlikely, you have no skills)

5) if the aforementioned don't work, pay back ~$150K? in loans

nothing is guaranteed in life and sometimes you need to take risks in order to succeed but this is almost bordering stupidity. a US citizen below median at MVP with 330K in loans is still in a much better shape than you. that's how bad your situation is.

my advice: drop out unless paying back loans is no problem.

grades??
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Re: Drop out? (for int'l student)

Postby grades?? » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:50 am

Yeah dropout is the advice

will1103
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Re: Drop out? (for int'l student)

Postby will1103 » Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:30 pm

Thank you all for the reply. I got private loans from a bank in my country. Actually, my parents are willing to pay the debt for me, but I would like to repay it by myself. And it seems that some law firms in my country accept US JD grads and do not require biglaw experience, so it might be my fallback option. I know how bad the situation is and I barely slept yesterday worrying about it. I have a new question that is it correct that once you got all your 1L grades, you can't drop out the current law school and apply to a new law school next year? Or just this idea is too unrealistic? Thx.

grades??
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Re: Drop out? (for int'l student)

Postby grades?? » Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:33 pm

will1103 wrote:Thank you all for the reply. I got private loans from a bank in my country. Actually, my parents are willing to pay the debt for me, but I would like to repay it by myself. And it seems that some law firms in my country accept US JD grads and do not require biglaw experience, so it might be my fallback option. I know how bad the situation is and I barely slept yesterday worrying about it. I have a new question that is it correct that once you got all your 1L grades, you can't drop out the current law school and apply to a new law school next year? Or just this idea is too unrealistic? Thx.


Too late. You needed to do that before you got your spring grades. Now, with a full year of grades, you wont be able to reapply

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kkdk
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Re: Drop out? (for int'l student)

Postby kkdk » Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:50 pm

OP, does your school not offer Curricular Practical Training? Through CPT you can get DHS work authorization for summer jobs. I'm international and got biglaw for 2L summer using the CPT option (you get work authorization and you ahve to write a paper for credit at the end of the summer. Shitty, yes, but you get work authorization almost immediately). I'm also getting on OPT for the next year.

Also depends if you're Canadian/Mexican or not; if you are, you should think about the TN visa.

You should also think about OPT after graduation, you can at least get 1 year exp in big law and that might help figuring out a visa plan going forward, or worst case, gives you 1 year experience to help with job search back home.

I'm not sure why the advice is to drop out if you haven't looked at CPT/OPT options yet.

will1103
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Re: Drop out? (for int'l student)

Postby will1103 » Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:57 pm

kkdk wrote:OP, does your school not offer Curricular Practical Training? Through CPT you can get DHS work authorization for summer jobs. I'm international and got biglaw for 2L summer using the CPT option (you get work authorization and you ahve to write a paper for credit at the end of the summer. Shitty, yes, but you get work authorization almost immediately). I'm also getting on OPT for the next year.

Also depends if you're Canadian/Mexican or not; if you are, you should think about the TN visa.

You should also think about OPT after graduation, you can at least get 1 year exp in big law and that might help figuring out a visa plan going forward, or worst case, gives you 1 year experience to help with job search back home.

I'm not sure why the advice is to drop out if you haven't looked at CPT/OPT options yet.


Yes we do have CPT. But the problem is whether Big law would give me an offer with this GPA.
Btw I'm not Canadian or Mexican.

sanzgo
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Re: Drop out? (for int'l student)

Postby sanzgo » Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:49 am

will1103 wrote:Thank you all for the reply. I got private loans from a bank in my country. Actually, my parents are willing to pay the debt for me, but I would like to repay it by myself. And it seems that some law firms in my country accept US JD grads and do not require biglaw experience, so it might be my fallback option. I know how bad the situation is and I barely slept yesterday worrying about it. I have a new question that is it correct that once you got all your 1L grades, you can't drop out the current law school and apply to a new law school next year? Or just this idea is too unrealistic? Thx.


if your parents are rich and having them pay off your debt is no big deal, then i suppose you can stay. the only reason i say this is because you said "And it seems that some law firms in my country accept US JD grads and do not require biglaw experience." To my knowledge, this is pretty rare so make sure you really research the hiring practices of law firms in your home country instead of simply relying on hearsay. You don't wanna use that as a "fallback option" only to find out how impossibly difficult it is to achieve and then be left hung out to dry with nothing to show for your $150,000 degree.

i still think you should dropout but if you believe law is your calling in life, then do wutchu gotta do. at least you and your family won't be subject to financial slavery regardless of your outcome. if your parents aren't super rich and will have to take a sizable financial hit to pay off your loans, then i REALLY think you should dropout but that's ultimately up to you.

seriously, best of luck. your situation is so dire and scary i really hope you find a way out of it. if you do, please come back and update this thread.

EWoods123
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Re: Drop out? (for int'l student)

Postby EWoods123 » Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:05 pm

Hello,

I am a rising 2L at a T100 school with a 3.2 GPA (Top 40%) and I definitely understand your situation as I am a fellow international student. I would strongly advice against dropping out because you are in a much better position than you think you are. I split my 1L summer between two big firms despite my rough gpa (I acquired the position through networking and a diversity program).

Mass mail small to mid sized firms and network as much as you can. BigLaw might be hard (definitely still possible because you did fairly well with your grades and based on the reputation of your school), but being able to use your OPT and CPT to get relevant experience with mid-sized or small firms would definitely be helpful. Moreover, if you are flexible with location, I am beyond confident you will get something. Worst case, you can apply to a LLM program and have a shot at being a lawyer in the U.S. again.

Moreover, you can apply to J.D advantage jobs or positions in the business field that would look favorably upon your J.D. This is a place where the prestige of your school will help significantly. If you can incur more debt, see if doing a JD/MBA is something that is still an option because it will make you 3x times more employable/marketable.

I know this is an extremely stressful process, and sometimes I loose sleep over it as well. However, do not let these encumbrances hinder you. My GPA was less than a 3.0 my first semester, but I was able to pull myself up, acquire my summer associate positions, receive journal invitations, and place in my school's oral advocacy competition. You are not in the best position, however, there are other options than dropping out of law school in my opinion (esp after ending with a 3.3 in your first year at a T30 school, which is very impressive).

Keep grinding buddy! Also, let me know if you had any additional questions.

grades??
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Re: Drop out? (for int'l student)

Postby grades?? » Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:09 pm

EWoods123 wrote:Hello,

I am a rising 2L at a T100 school with a 3.2 GPA (Top 40%) and I definitely understand your situation as I am a fellow international student. I would strongly advice against dropping out because you are in a much better position than you think you are. I split my 1L summer between two big firms despite my rough gpa (I acquired the position through networking and a diversity program).

Mass mail small to mid sized firms and network as much as you can. BigLaw might be hard (definitely still possible because you did fairly well with your grades and based on the reputation of your school), but being able to use your OPT and CPT to get relevant experience with mid-sized or small firms would definitely be helpful. Moreover, if you are flexible with location, I am beyond confident you will get something. Worst case, you can apply to a LLM program and have a shot at being a lawyer in the U.S. again.

Moreover, you can apply to J.D advantage jobs or positions in the business field that would look favorably upon your J.D. This is a place where the prestige of your school will help significantly. If you can incur more debt, see if doing a JD/MBA is something that is still an option because it will make you 3x times more employable/marketable.

I know this is an extremely stressful process, and sometimes I loose sleep over it as well. However, do not let these encumbrances hinder you. My GPA was less than a 3.0 my first semester, but I was able to pull myself up, acquire my summer associate positions, receive journal invitations, and place in my school's oral advocacy competition. You are not in the best position, however, there are other options than dropping out of law school in my opinion (esp after ending with a 3.3 in your first year at a T30 school, which is very impressive).

Keep grinding buddy! Also, let me know if you had any additional questions.


This isn't helpful. Come back when you get a job that will sponsor you.

EWoods123
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:31 pm

Re: Drop out? (for int'l student)

Postby EWoods123 » Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:35 pm

grades?? wrote:
EWoods123 wrote:Hello,

I am a rising 2L at a T100 school with a 3.2 GPA (Top 40%) and I definitely understand your situation as I am a fellow international student. I would strongly advice against dropping out because you are in a much better position than you think you are. I split my 1L summer between two big firms despite my rough gpa (I acquired the position through networking and a diversity program).

Mass mail small to mid sized firms and network as much as you can. BigLaw might be hard (definitely still possible because you did fairly well with your grades and based on the reputation of your school), but being able to use your OPT and CPT to get relevant experience with mid-sized or small firms would definitely be helpful. Moreover, if you are flexible with location, I am beyond confident you will get something. Worst case, you can apply to a LLM program and have a shot at being a lawyer in the U.S. again.

Moreover, you can apply to J.D advantage jobs or positions in the business field that would look favorably upon your J.D. This is a place where the prestige of your school will help significantly. If you can incur more debt, see if doing a JD/MBA is something that is still an option because it will make you 3x times more employable/marketable.

I know this is an extremely stressful process, and sometimes I loose sleep over it as well. However, do not let these encumbrances hinder you. My GPA was less than a 3.0 my first semester, but I was able to pull myself up, acquire my summer associate positions, receive journal invitations, and place in my school's oral advocacy competition. You are not in the best position, however, there are other options than dropping out of law school in my opinion (esp after ending with a 3.3 in your first year at a T30 school, which is very impressive).

Keep grinding buddy! Also, let me know if you had any additional questions.


This isn't helpful. Come back when you get a job that will sponsor you.


I don't know whether I will find a legal job that will sponsor me post law school(only time will tell). After my undergraduate, I had an offer from a firm that would've sponsored me, but I chose to go to law school instead. Being mean spirited and trying to bring people down isn't exactly helpful. This person invested great amount of time, money, and effort in their first year, and I was just trying to lay out the options.

This is an issue international students struggle with on a regular basis, and if you cannot be compassionate towards us, please don't be rude. I thought it was helpful, however, I would definitely be open to hearing your opinion as to why my advice was garbage.

Peace out ya'll.




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