A Most Sincere Middle Finger to Fake ADHD Law Students

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alphasteve
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Re: A Most Sincere Middle Finger to Fake ADHD Law Students

Postby alphasteve » Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:40 pm

Nomo wrote:
I don't know much about ADHD. These are genuine questions.

I think the difference might e more in our law school exams than our practice experience. I had plenty of exams where there were 8 or 9 short fact patterns and you were given the role of arguing for a particular result. You don't actually read cases on the exam, but you do quickly review the facts, think up an argument, and then write it down. All in the span of 20 minutes. Would someone with ADHD find it easier to do this sort of exam?

(Maybe half of my exams consisted of just one or two fact patterns where you were supposed to identify a ton of issues).

I think it's more that you do it over and over again for three hours straight. Certainly longer fact patterns would pose additional challenges. For me, my distract-ability was largely internal... I could be "reading" a case or something, but my mind would be wandering off to something else... so I would have to re-read things often.

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PhilippeStandingOnIt
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Re: A Most Sincere Middle Finger to Fake ADHD Law Students

Postby PhilippeStandingOnIt » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:10 pm

I have been struggling with crippling ADHD for most of my life. I HATE the fake ADHD'ers more than anybody. It is my experience, that because of these people, I get one of two dismissive responses from people-

1) Oh you have ADHD? Yeah, I'm pretty sure I have that too. I really hate studying. No asshole. You don't have ADHD. You hate studying because studying fucking sucks. My struggle is real. Don't dismiss me.

2) You kids today lack discipline. ADHD is a phony disease made up by pharmaceutical companies to sell drugs and to give coddled millenials an excuse for sucking at life. FUCK YOU DUDE.

I often describe ADHD as "dislexia for thoughts/organization". For example, I know that when I get out of bed in the morning I need to eat breakfast, take a shower, brush my teeth, and put on my clothes, but damned if I can figure out in which order I should do these things. So after l lay in bed for 15 minutes trying to solve the Rubik's Cube that is my morning routine, I make my way towards the kitchen to get my Lucky Charms, but get distracted en route by the bathroom and start brushing my teeth only to remember, "Ah hell...food!" Somehow I get dressed (usually bathed), and out the door every morning, but God knows it takes me a good deal longer than most other people. Now imagine trying to achieve an actual complex task (like writing a paper or studying for an exam).

That said, I would not likely ever take an accommodation (I am starting law school next year, but have already been to graduate school and I am familiar with time-restricted exams and essays). My experience is that for a 2-4 hour exam, I can take my adderall, get myself good and worked up with fear of failure, and go in and "man-up" and focus for the required time period. There's just too much on the line to allow myself the luxury of distraction. However, this is my experience, and other people may experience ADHD differently, and I wouldn't begrudge them their accommodation.

What really gets me is the daily grind of reading, studying, focusing in class, day in and day out. I can tough-out an exam (or even an exam week), but it is impossible to "brute-force" my focus for an entire semester. This means I study less efficiently and for more hours than most of my peers to achieve the same amount of "learning." I was going to offer this as consolation for the people that don't get the extra time- that for those who get extra time, an extra hour isn't going to undo the disadvantage of ADHD all semester long. But then I remembered we're talking about fakers, who don't have that disadvantage.

Yeah, I agree with OP. Fuck those guys.

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bearsfan23
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Re: A Most Sincere Middle Finger to Fake ADHD Law Students

Postby bearsfan23 » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:21 pm

The problem with people who have ADHD, whether real or fake, is that zero people accept it as an excuse in the real world.

You can be coddled all the way through law school, given extra time on exams, etc, but there are zero employers who care. Once you actually start working, your ADHD excuse ends. You deal with it or you lose your job

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: A Most Sincere Middle Finger to Fake ADHD Law Students

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:48 pm

bearsfan23 wrote:The problem with people who have ADHD, whether real or fake, is that zero people accept it as an excuse in the real world.

You can be coddled all the way through law school, given extra time on exams, etc, but there are zero employers who care. Once you actually start working, your ADHD excuse ends. You deal with it or you lose your job

Has there been any evidence that people with ADHD don't deal with it?

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PhilippeStandingOnIt
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Re: A Most Sincere Middle Finger to Fake ADHD Law Students

Postby PhilippeStandingOnIt » Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:44 pm

I've heard of studies that suggest a correlation between ADHD and lower lifetime earnings, but I don't think that's terribly surprising, and I don't think that fully constitutes "not dealing with it."

And there are accommodations an employer can give without "excusing" your every deficiency. My office has an "open door policy", as in, your office door is to remain open while you work unless your are having a client meeting that requires privacy. A lady in the office used a request for ADHD accommodation to get permission to keep her door closed to avoid distraction. However, she is still expected to stay as organized and timely as any of us. I think this is in the realm of "reasonable."

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Poldy
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Re: A Most Sincere Middle Finger to Fake ADHD Law Students

Postby Poldy » Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:58 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
bearsfan23 wrote:The problem with people who have ADHD, whether real or fake, is that zero people accept it as an excuse in the real world.

You can be coddled all the way through law school, given extra time on exams, etc, but there are zero employers who care. Once you actually start working, your ADHD excuse ends. You deal with it or you lose your job

Has there been any evidence that people with ADHD don't deal with it?


If they can deal with it then, why can't they deal with it on test day?

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sublime
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Re: A Most Sincere Middle Finger to Fake ADHD Law Students

Postby sublime » Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:03 pm

..

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: A Most Sincere Middle Finger to Fake ADHD Law Students

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:19 pm

RancidSumo wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
bearsfan23 wrote:The problem with people who have ADHD, whether real or fake, is that zero people accept it as an excuse in the real world.

You can be coddled all the way through law school, given extra time on exams, etc, but there are zero employers who care. Once you actually start working, your ADHD excuse ends. You deal with it or you lose your job

Has there been any evidence that people with ADHD don't deal with it?


If they can deal with it then, why can't they deal with it on test day?

Because law school exams/the LSAT are so exactly like work conditions in a real job.

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rpupkin
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Re: A Most Sincere Middle Finger to Fake ADHD Law Students

Postby rpupkin » Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:26 pm

sublime wrote:
RancidSumo wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
bearsfan23 wrote:The problem with people who have ADHD, whether real or fake, is that zero people accept it as an excuse in the real world.

You can be coddled all the way through law school, given extra time on exams, etc, but there are zero employers who care. Once you actually start working, your ADHD excuse ends. You deal with it or you lose your job

Has there been any evidence that people with ADHD don't deal with it?


If they can deal with it then, why can't they deal with it on test day?


Do you really not see how test conditions may be worse for someone with ADHD than what everyday life would be?

Working in a room of 100 v. working in an office alone is one example.

I think the room example is a good one. But I struggle to conceptualize how the "extra time" thing fits into the picture. If you need extra time on a test, why wouldn't you also need extra time for a given assignment in the working world?

To be clear, I'm not asking rhetorically. I don't have strong feelings about this issue and I'm not looking for a fight. But I have to admit that I share some of the instincts of the more skeptical posters in this thread. I suppose I could use some ADHD consciousness raising.

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Poldy
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Re: A Most Sincere Middle Finger to Fake ADHD Law Students

Postby Poldy » Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:32 pm

There are distractions everywhere in school and at work. By the time you're in law school you should either have learned to deal with them or you should expect to fall behind. It's time to grow up and operate in the real world.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: A Most Sincere Middle Finger to Fake ADHD Law Students

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:38 pm

RancidSumo wrote:There are distractions everywhere in school and at work. By the time you're in law school you should either have learned to deal with them or you should expect to fall behind. It's time to grow up and operate in the real world.

Dude, this is so fucking unhelpful.

re: rpupkin - I'm not an expert, but my sense is that in the real world people have enough control over their working conditions that they're not operating under LSAT/law exam conditions, and so can adapt in other ways to get things done. And some people may just take longer to complete some assignments, which I suspect happens anyway with an absence of learning disabilities. I know people are going to say "but why should the client pay for that???", but it's not clear that the ADHD person who takes longer, takes long enough to take the work outside the standard for that firm. Also, shockingly, some people work in jobs without billable hours.

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rpupkin
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Re: A Most Sincere Middle Finger to Fake ADHD Law Students

Postby rpupkin » Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:07 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
RancidSumo wrote:There are distractions everywhere in school and at work. By the time you're in law school you should either have learned to deal with them or you should expect to fall behind. It's time to grow up and operate in the real world.

Dude, this is so fucking unhelpful.

re: rpupkin - I'm not an expert, but my sense is that in the real world people have enough control over their working conditions that they're not operating under LSAT/law exam conditions, and so can adapt in other ways to get things done. And some people may just take longer to complete some assignments, which I suspect happens anyway with an absence of learning disabilities. I know people are going to say "but why should the client pay for that???", but it's not clear that the ADHD person who takes longer, takes long enough to take the work outside the standard for that firm. Also, shockingly, some people work in jobs without billable hours.

Thanks for taking the time to explain, Nony.

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PhilippeStandingOnIt
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Re: A Most Sincere Middle Finger to Fake ADHD Law Students

Postby PhilippeStandingOnIt » Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:07 pm

RancidSumo wrote:There are distractions everywhere in school and at work. By the time you're in law school you should either have learned to deal with them or you should expect to fall behind. It's time to grow up and operate in the real world.


I have no issue with your first sentence. Maybe not even the second. I have spent the last twenty years developing my own coping mechanisms to deal with the distractions.

Your last sentence is kinda shitty though. It's not an issue of "growing up". That suggests ADHD is a maturity problem. It's not. It's straight up neurochemical.

The issue with exams is that exam environments and rules are not conducive to the application of our learned coping behaviors and strategies. In my office, on the other hand, I have the control and liberty to structure my work and work environment in the manner I need to succeed. That said, I am myself skeptical of the extra time accommodation; I think the private room is FAR more helpful. But like I said earlier, everybody experiences it differently and I'm hesitant to present my own experiences as normative.

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Re: A Most Sincere Middle Finger to Fake ADHD Law Students

Postby alphasteve » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:09 am

RancidSumo wrote:There are distractions everywhere in school and at work. By the time you're in law school you should either have learned to deal with them or you should expect to fall behind. It's time to grow up and operate in the real world.

Someone missed biglaw and is looking for someone to blame.

Oh, I'm sorry... I just looked at your posting history. You're a fucking 0L. LOLOL. Oh shit.. you really do have something against people with ADHD. What happened, are you blaming a few ADHD people with accommodations for your shitty UG GPA? Fuck man, my GPA was just .2 less, and I spent 5 years failing UG before being diagnosed with ADHD. Also, it appears you are K-JD, so I'd love to hear your experiential or anecdotal evidence that you rely on for your pronouncements on what "bosses" will and won't do.

Or, maybe stick to posting what you have experience in... and maybe don't post in the forum for law school students until you are one or have been one, k sport?

arklaw13
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Re: A Most Sincere Middle Finger to Fake ADHD Law Students

Postby arklaw13 » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:19 am

Can I sign up to be ADHD before my fed courts exam tomorrow or is it too late?

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alphasteve
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Re: A Most Sincere Middle Finger to Fake ADHD Law Students

Postby alphasteve » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:21 am

arklaw13 wrote:Can I sign up to be ADHD before my fed courts exam tomorrow or is it too late?

something something abstention doctrine Colorado standing case in controversy, juris my diction.

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Poldy
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Re: A Most Sincere Middle Finger to Fake ADHD Law Students

Postby Poldy » Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:12 am

alphasteve wrote:
RancidSumo wrote:There are distractions everywhere in school and at work. By the time you're in law school you should either have learned to deal with them or you should expect to fall behind. It's time to grow up and operate in the real world.

Someone missed biglaw and is looking for someone to blame.

Oh, I'm sorry... I just looked at your posting history. You're a fucking 0L. LOLOL. Oh shit.. you really do have something against people with ADHD. What happened, are you blaming a few ADHD people with accommodations for your shitty UG GPA? Fuck man, my GPA was just .2 less, and I spent 5 years failing UG before being diagnosed with ADHD. Also, it appears you are K-JD, so I'd love to hear your experiential or anecdotal evidence that you rely on for your pronouncements on what "bosses" will and won't do.

Or, maybe stick to posting what you have experience in... and maybe don't post in the forum for law school students until you are one or have been one, k sport?


Lol, calm down there buddy. Looks like I've touched a nerve. My undergrad GPA is bad because of laziness but at least I don't try to pass the blame.

And yeah, I'm technically K-JD but I've had a job since I was 16 and have worked for the last two years as an engineer in industry while wrapping up my degree.

Nice detective work though. I'm glad you were able to focus long enough to get that done.
Last edited by Poldy on Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A Most Sincere Middle Finger to Fake ADHD Law Students

Postby Poldy » Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:13 am

PhilippeStandingOnIt wrote:
RancidSumo wrote:There are distractions everywhere in school and at work. By the time you're in law school you should either have learned to deal with them or you should expect to fall behind. It's time to grow up and operate in the real world.


I have no issue with your first sentence. Maybe not even the second. I have spent the last twenty years developing my own coping mechanisms to deal with the distractions.

Your last sentence is kinda shitty though. It's not an issue of "growing up". That suggests ADHD is a maturity problem. It's not. It's straight up neurochemical.

The issue with exams is that exam environments and rules are not conducive to the application of our learned coping behaviors and strategies. In my office, on the other hand, I have the control and liberty to structure my work and work environment in the manner I need to succeed. That said, I am myself skeptical of the extra time accommodation; I think the private room is FAR more helpful. But like I said earlier, everybody experiences it differently and I'm hesitant to present my own experiences as normative.


For the record, I didn't mean grow up and stop having whatever problems you have, I meant grow up and quit expecting other people to care about and accomodate them.

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Re: A Most Sincere Middle Finger to Fake ADHD Law Students

Postby xael » Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:13 am

RancidSumo wrote:There are distractions everywhere in school and at work. By the time you're in law school you should either have learned to deal with them or you should expect to fall behind. It's time to grow up and operate in the real world.


Yeah, because in work it's not like you can't close the door to your office or something.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: A Most Sincere Middle Finger to Fake ADHD Law Students

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:14 am

RancidSumo wrote:
PhilippeStandingOnIt wrote:
RancidSumo wrote:There are distractions everywhere in school and at work. By the time you're in law school you should either have learned to deal with them or you should expect to fall behind. It's time to grow up and operate in the real world.


I have no issue with your first sentence. Maybe not even the second. I have spent the last twenty years developing my own coping mechanisms to deal with the distractions.

Your last sentence is kinda shitty though. It's not an issue of "growing up". That suggests ADHD is a maturity problem. It's not. It's straight up neurochemical.

The issue with exams is that exam environments and rules are not conducive to the application of our learned coping behaviors and strategies. In my office, on the other hand, I have the control and liberty to structure my work and work environment in the manner I need to succeed. That said, I am myself skeptical of the extra time accommodation; I think the private room is FAR more helpful. But like I said earlier, everybody experiences it differently and I'm hesitant to present my own experiences as normative.


For the record, I didn't mean grow up and stop having whatever problems you have, I meant grow up and quit expecting other people to care about and accomodate them.

It is actually against the rules for you to post in this forum, dude.

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alphasteve
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Re: A Most Sincere Middle Finger to Fake ADHD Law Students

Postby alphasteve » Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:53 am

RancidSumo wrote:
alphasteve wrote:
RancidSumo wrote:There are distractions everywhere in school and at work. By the time you're in law school you should either have learned to deal with them or you should expect to fall behind. It's time to grow up and operate in the real world.

Someone missed biglaw and is looking for someone to blame.

Oh, I'm sorry... I just looked at your posting history. You're a fucking 0L. LOLOL. Oh shit.. you really do have something against people with ADHD. What happened, are you blaming a few ADHD people with accommodations for your shitty UG GPA? Fuck man, my GPA was just .2 less, and I spent 5 years failing UG before being diagnosed with ADHD. Also, it appears you are K-JD, so I'd love to hear your experiential or anecdotal evidence that you rely on for your pronouncements on what "bosses" will and won't do.

Or, maybe stick to posting what you have experience in... and maybe don't post in the forum for law school students until you are one or have been one, k sport?


Lol, calm down there buddy. Looks like I've touched a nerve. My undergrad GPA is bad because of laziness but at least I don't try to pass the blame.

And yeah, I'm technically K-JD but I've had a job since I was 16 and have worked for the last two years as an engineer in industry while wrapping up my degree.

Nice detective work though. I'm glad you were able to focus long enough to get that done.

Solid "I'm not mad. YOU'RE MAD" usage here.

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Re: A Most Sincere Middle Finger to Fake ADHD Law Students

Postby Birdnals » Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:06 pm

Just catching up on this thread, but I feel bad for the 1L wustl'ers. Pretty much everything that could go wrong with their class (every law school class has people in it which make you hate law school, but theirs seems to have a ton of those types. And the exam shit that went down during first semester sucks too).


I don't know of anybody in my class which had extra time for any exam, with or without disabilities (I'm sure there were some, it just wasn't common knowledge, so I doubt there were many, if any, abusers). If this had been going down when I was a 1L I would be heated too.

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Re: A Most Sincere Middle Finger to Fake ADHD Law Students

Postby 3|ink » Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:51 pm

How do you know when it is ADHD and not just a lack of discipline? (Aside from, you know, getting a diagnosis.) Cause I have all of the symptoms Steve described, but I just assumed it was my fault.

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Re: A Most Sincere Middle Finger to Fake ADHD Law Students

Postby chuckbass » Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:52 pm

Birdnals wrote:Just catching up on this thread, but I feel bad for the 1L wustl'ers. Pretty much everything that could go wrong with their class (every law school class has people in it which make you hate law school, but theirs seems to have a ton of those types. And the exam shit that went down during first semester sucks too).


I don't know of anybody in my class which had extra time for any exam, with or without disabilities (I'm sure there were some, it just wasn't common knowledge, so I doubt there were many, if any, abusers). If this had been going down when I was a 1L I would be heated too.

It's about to get worse too i.e. more exam shit went down and will hit the fan after we're done tomorrow.

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Re: A Most Sincere Middle Finger to Fake ADHD Law Students

Postby sublime » Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:55 pm

..




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