Hearing some starkly concerning things from 0L friend

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kykiske
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Hearing some starkly concerning things from 0L friend

Postby kykiske » Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:15 pm

I'm trying to figure out how to effectively explain how law school works--e.g. grading, daily class routine--and the current state of the legal market to my 0L friend.

She insists that because she has no interest in private practice, and only wants to do non-profit/public interest work, she need not worry about her grades. And that she's "heard from plenty of law students" that the rank of the law school makes no difference and that the law school curve is not based on numbers. According to her--based solely on anecdotal evidence--more than half the class can be in the top quartile.

Put frankly, her comments show me that she is highly misinformed, naive, or both.

How can I effectively explain to her the truth? Her comments really struck me. She's about to make a six-figure commitment, yet lacks any type of basic understanding of law school and the legal market.

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JohannDeMann
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Re: Hearing some starkly concerning things from 0L friend

Postby JohannDeMann » Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:52 pm

you should probably just tell her about this site and LST reports. anything more than that you're sticking your nose places you shouldn't.

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UnicornHunter
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Re: Hearing some starkly concerning things from 0L friend

Postby UnicornHunter » Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:58 pm

Yea, save your friendship and let us be the assholes.

kykiske
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Re: Hearing some starkly concerning things from 0L friend

Postby kykiske » Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:05 pm

HAHAHA. Excellent responses.

You are guys are right. I mean from even our brief conversation, she was getting highly defensive. I wasn't really attacking her choice; I just asked some frank questions.

I could understand how she thinks that public interest/non-profit employers care less about grades.

But her arrogance in explaining to me how the law school curve works still irks me. How can she possibly think that more than half the class can be in the top quartile? I mean that's mathematically impossible.

#rant

Wingtip88
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Re: Hearing some starkly concerning things from 0L friend

Postby Wingtip88 » Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:09 pm

You're saying that someone who wants to be a lawyer is emotionally defensive when confronted with an opposing viewpoint and takes an air of arrogance as to their faulty opinions which run contrary to factual evidence?

Interesting.

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MarkfromWI
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Re: Hearing some starkly concerning things from 0L friend

Postby MarkfromWI » Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:11 pm

kykiske wrote:I'm trying to figure out how to effectively explain how law school works--e.g. grading, daily class routine--and the current state of the legal market to my 0L friend.

She insists that because she has no interest in private practice, and only wants to do non-profit/public interest work, she need not worry about her grades. And that she's "heard from plenty of law students" that the rank of the law school makes no difference and that the law school curve is not based on numbers. According to her--based solely on anecdotal evidence--more than half the class can be in the top quartile.

Put frankly, her comments show me that she is highly misinformed, naive, or both.

How can I effectively explain to her the truth? Her comments really struck me. She's about to make a six-figure commitment, yet lacks any type of basic understanding of law school and the legal market.


That someone could believe the bold above is absolutely mind boggling by itself, let alone the fact that that person has gotten into law school. Not that it matters, but where is your friend going to go? For some reason as I was reading the OP Charlotte School of Law came to mind...

Anyway, as the posters above said, there really isn't much you can do. Pushing her too much will likely just cause her to resent you and stop listening, jeopardizing your friendship. You can send her here, but because what she'll find isn't what she wants to hear, there's not much TLS will likely be able to do either. For her sake, though, best of luck to you

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baal hadad
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Re: Hearing some starkly concerning things from 0L friend

Postby baal hadad » Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:12 pm

Don't give advice when your friend isn't asking for it. You sound like a crappy friend

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smaug
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Re: Hearing some starkly concerning things from 0L friend

Postby smaug » Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:15 pm

baal hadad wrote:Don't give advice when your friend isn't asking for it. You sound like a crappy friend


eh. friends don't let friends go to law school.

thatsnotmyname
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Re: Hearing some starkly concerning things from 0L friend

Postby thatsnotmyname » Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:20 pm

kykiske wrote:HAHAHA. Excellent responses.

You are guys are right. I mean from even our brief conversation, she was getting highly defensive. I wasn't really attacking her choice; I just asked some frank questions.

I could understand how she thinks that public interest/non-profit employers care less about grades.

But her arrogance in explaining to me how the law school curve works still irks me. How can she possibly think that more than half the class can be in the top quartile? I mean that's mathematically impossible.

#rant


I think what she was trying to say is essentially the same thing as when people say that more than 50% of the class ends up at median. I'm not mathematician/statistician but I think that it's likely that more than just 25% of the class is in the top quartile, but of course nowhere near half the class is going to be in the top quartile.

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DKM
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Re: Hearing some starkly concerning things from 0L friend

Postby DKM » Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:27 pm

I hear stupid stuff from "pre-law" students at my university all the time. I don't correct them. They are my future competition.

kykiske
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Re: Hearing some starkly concerning things from 0L friend

Postby kykiske » Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:27 pm

Thanks for the comments.

I'll have to change my approach. Instead of personally commenting, I'll simply show her where she can find good resources.

To MarkfomWI, I did not ask where she's going. So I have no clue. Maybe it's T14; maybe it's unranked.

To thatsnotmyname, that's a fair analysis; though I don't think that's what she meant. IMO, she legitimately thinks that half the class can be ranked in the top quartile.

hdunlop
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Re: Hearing some starkly concerning things from 0L friend

Postby hdunlop » Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:29 pm

Literally every friend I had told me not to go to law school, not even because of cost. Maybe this is because I'm not k-jd, but this is valuable input, even if it gets old. If someone is your friend and is about to ruin their life, it's reasonable to risk pissing them off to tell them not to do that. Obviously don't push it too far, but these are some pretty severe misunderstandings.

Void
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Re: Hearing some starkly concerning things from 0L friend

Postby Void » Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:36 pm

Except for the nonsense about grading curves, your friend isn't absurdly wrong. I'm a public interest lawyer and never once had a job interview where anyone even brought up my grades. In fact, my current employer noticed that I had a good GPA only after I had a job offer. Similarly, nobody I know gives a fuck about where I or anybody else went to law school.

That said, I am super lucky to have a job, and I don't deny that the odds of ending up with some kind of job can only increase with better grades and fancier schools.

Big Dog
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Re: Hearing some starkly concerning things from 0L friend

Postby Big Dog » Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:03 pm

According to her--based solely on anecdotal evidence--more than half the class can be in the top quartile.


Obviously, your "friend" never took AP Stats, or if she did, she failed it.

FlamingDragon
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Re: Hearing some starkly concerning things from 0L friend

Postby FlamingDragon » Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:39 pm

thatsnotmyname wrote:
kykiske wrote:HAHAHA. Excellent responses.

You are guys are right. I mean from even our brief conversation, she was getting highly defensive. I wasn't really attacking her choice; I just asked some frank questions.

I could understand how she thinks that public interest/non-profit employers care less about grades.

But her arrogance in explaining to me how the law school curve works still irks me. How can she possibly think that more than half the class can be in the top quartile? I mean that's mathematically impossible.

#rant


I think what she was trying to say is essentially the same thing as when people say that more than 50% of the class ends up at median. I'm not mathematician/statistician but I think that it's likely that more than just 25% of the class is in the top quartile, but of course nowhere near half the class is going to be in the top quartile.


Jesus tapdancing christ. The definition of top quartile is top 25%, so no, it is not possible for what you are saying to be true, unless a crapton of people have the exact same GPA, in which case saying you were in the "top" quartile would stil be false because there would eseentially not be quartiles.

Julien_Benda
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Re: Hearing some starkly concerning things from 0L friend

Postby Julien_Benda » Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:46 pm

kykiske wrote:But her arrogance in explaining to me how the law school curve works still irks me. How can she possibly think that more than half the class can be in the top quartile? I mean that's mathematically impossible.


Not at YLS or SLS, lol...

Intranetusa
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Re: Hearing some starkly concerning things from 0L friend

Postby Intranetusa » Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:46 am

kykiske wrote:I'm trying to figure out how to effectively explain how law school works--e.g. grading, daily class routine--and the current state of the legal market to my 0L friend.

She insists that because she has no interest in private practice, and only wants to do non-profit/public interest work, she need not worry about her grades. And that she's "heard from plenty of law students" that the rank of the law school makes no difference and that the law school curve is not based on numbers. According to her--based solely on anecdotal evidence--more than half the class can be in the top quartile.

Put frankly, her comments show me that she is highly misinformed, naive, or both.

How can I effectively explain to her the truth? Her comments really struck me. She's about to make a six-figure commitment, yet lacks any type of basic understanding of law school and the legal market.

Have you friend post here, so we can enlighten her. Also, have her browse JD underground, third-tier-reality, outsidethelawschoolscam, and other law-school-scam blogs.

If she still refuses to reconsider or even attempt to see reality, then a fool and their money would have parted.
Last edited by Intranetusa on Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

Intranetusa
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Re: Hearing some starkly concerning things from 0L friend

Postby Intranetusa » Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:49 am

Big Dog wrote:
According to her--based solely on anecdotal evidence--more than half the class can be in the top quartile.


Obviously, your "friend" never took AP Stats, or if she did, she failed it.

It's not AP statistics - it's not even on the level of regular high school statistics. It's more like extremely rudimentary math.


Wingtip88 wrote:You're saying that someone who wants to be a lawyer is emotionally defensive when confronted with an opposing viewpoint and takes an air of arrogance as to their faulty opinions which run contrary to factual evidence?

Interesting.

She has no future as a lawyer.

And the fact that she thinks 50% of the class can end up in the top 25% of the class also shows she has no future in anything involving basic math.

kykiske
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Re: Hearing some starkly concerning things from 0L friend

Postby kykiske » Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:50 am

It's good to read that my concerns are not unique.

Also, I should have asked her, "Who are these 'law students' you are getting information from?"

I mean, to be fair, she didn't invent her thoughts on the law school curve; she repeated what other law students said.

Intranetusa
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Re: Hearing some starkly concerning things from 0L friend

Postby Intranetusa » Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:03 am

kykiske wrote:It's good to read that my concerns are not unique.

Also, I should have asked her, "Who are these 'law students' you are getting information from?"

I mean, to be fair, she didn't invent her thoughts on the law school curve; she repeated what other law students said.

Did these law students go to Cooley? There are a lot of law-school diploma mills out there that is the law-school equivalent of the University of Phoenix or ITT Tech.

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RCinDNA
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Re: Hearing some starkly concerning things from 0L friend

Postby RCinDNA » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:09 am

I feel bad when I hear such clueless students come in. I know networking and luck are big part of getting those jobs, but she's just being willfully ignorant if she doesn't realize that her chances of landing a coveted position get very slim when she is competing against someone equally or more passionate who is a top 10% of the class.

I agree with the advice that you should stay out of it, and point her in the direction of resources. She may hear this same information from other pre-law students, and that may do more to convince her of her naivete than anything you can say.




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