Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

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S. Goodman
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby S. Goodman » Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:45 pm

S. Goodman wrote:
JEB wrote:Regarding ODS dates for this next year, it looks like we'll be going in September and October. If your results come out quickly, you'll go in September so that you can go to the October NJS assuming you passed.



I wonder just how quickly the results will need to be released? I think my jurisdiction releases like the week before the end of ODS. At what point during ODS are orders cut for NJS? Maybe figuring out how fast the fastest jurisdiction releases their scores could provide insight.



Found some answers, from the horses mouth. For current 3L's, seems like if your Bar releases results some time in September, 2016, or earlier, you'll be going to ODS September 11 - October 14, 2016. If they release anytime after approximately October 7th, you're most likely going to the next ODS class. The NJS class that corresponds to the above ODS class is October 17 - December 23.

So, if you're in that first ODS class and you pass the Bar, you'll start NJS literally a couple of days after you graduate ODS. Which is pretty cool; you won't have to waste time going home and waiting, and having a break in pay!! All done in basically one sitting.

All dates are subject to change of course.

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JEB
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby JEB » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:05 pm

S. Goodman wrote:
So, if you're in that first ODS class and you pass the Bar, you'll start NJS literally a couple of days after you graduate ODS. Which is pretty cool; you won't have to waste time going home and waiting, and having a break in pay!! All done in basically one sitting.


Except you will have to get on a plane and go home for a day before flying back. The logic of government bureaucracy.

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OtterLaw
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby OtterLaw » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:11 pm

S. Goodman wrote:
S. Goodman wrote:
JEB wrote:Regarding ODS dates for this next year, it looks like we'll be going in September and October. If your results come out quickly, you'll go in September so that you can go to the October NJS assuming you passed.



I wonder just how quickly the results will need to be released? I think my jurisdiction releases like the week before the end of ODS. At what point during ODS are orders cut for NJS? Maybe figuring out how fast the fastest jurisdiction releases their scores could provide insight.



Found some answers, from the horses mouth. For current 3L's, seems like if your Bar releases results some time in September, 2016, or earlier, you'll be going to ODS September 11 - October 14, 2016. If they release anytime after approximately October 7th, you're most likely going to the next ODS class. The NJS class that corresponds to the above ODS class is October 17 - December 23.

So, if you're in that first ODS class and you pass the Bar, you'll start NJS literally a couple of days after you graduate ODS. Which is pretty cool; you won't have to waste time going home and waiting, and having a break in pay!! All done in basically one sitting.

All dates are subject to change of course.


Are you positive that a break between ODS and NJS would constitute a break in pay? Unless the officer corps is way different than enlisted, once you are on active duty (which ODS counts) you are getting paid no matter what they're doing with you. Again, I could be wrong but that doesn't sound right.

Giddy-Up
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby Giddy-Up » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:16 pm

Are you positive that a break between ODS and NJS would constitute a break in pay? Unless the officer corps is way different than enlisted, once you are on active duty (which ODS counts) you are getting paid no matter what they're doing with you. Again, I could be wrong but that doesn't sound right.


For Navy JAG, it is 100% the case. You do not get paid during the break between ODS and NJS.

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S. Goodman
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby S. Goodman » Sat Jan 30, 2016 3:19 am

JEB wrote:
S. Goodman wrote:
So, if you're in that first ODS class and you pass the Bar, you'll start NJS literally a couple of days after you graduate ODS. Which is pretty cool; you won't have to waste time going home and waiting, and having a break in pay!! All done in basically one sitting.


Except you will have to get on a plane and go home for a day before flying back. The logic of government bureaucracy.


Not sure why they would do this. Can you elaborate?

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby TheSpanishMain » Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:46 pm

Navyhornguy wrote:
Are you positive that a break between ODS and NJS would constitute a break in pay? Unless the officer corps is way different than enlisted, once you are on active duty (which ODS counts) you are getting paid no matter what they're doing with you. Again, I could be wrong but that doesn't sound right.


I don't think it's an officer/enlisted thing. I think you don't technically start active duty until NJS/your first duty station. Before that, you're an inactive reservist, and you're probably placed in "active duty for training" status to go to ODS. Then, I'm guessing, you go back into inactive reserve status, and then go back on active duty for real when you hit NJS.

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OtterLaw
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby OtterLaw » Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:55 pm

TheSpanishMain wrote:
Navyhornguy wrote:
Are you positive that a break between ODS and NJS would constitute a break in pay? Unless the officer corps is way different than enlisted, once you are on active duty (which ODS counts) you are getting paid no matter what they're doing with you. Again, I could be wrong but that doesn't sound right.


I don't think it's an officer/enlisted thing. I think you don't technically start active duty until NJS/your first duty station. Before that, you're an inactive reservist, and you're probably placed in "active duty for training" status to go to ODS. Then, I'm guessing, you go back into inactive reserve status, and then go back on active duty for real when you hit NJS.


I just know on the enlisted side you are active duty from the day you swear in and go to boot camp. I was paid full time from that day forward no matter if I was in a training status or not. I would think that's how ODS works, but again I've never been an officer.

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby TheSpanishMain » Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:01 pm

I realize if you've never been affiliated with the reserves this is probably a little confusing. It's not an enlisted/officer thing. It's a reserve/active thing. If a guy enlists in the Reserves, he still has to go to boot camp/MOS training. He'll be in an active status while he's there, and then when he goes back home he's back to being a reservist, unless he gets mobilized.

Like if you commission while in law school, you'll be an inactivate reservist during that time. You definitely aren't getting paid active duty salary to be a 3L. You won't actually become active duty (at least, I think this is right) until NJS. At ODS you're only temporarily active duty. But yes, once you become officially active duty, you'll be paid no matter what you're doing.

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S. Goodman
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby S. Goodman » Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:07 am

TheSpanishMain wrote: You won't actually become active duty (at least, I think this is right) until NJS. At ODS you're only temporarily active duty. But yes, once you become officially active duty, you'll be paid no matter what you're doing.



You're right. If I had to guess, it is probably set up like this for Jag's in case you fail the Bar exam, or for some other reason have to delay going to NJS. They wouldn't want to pay you while you're studying to take the Bar exam a second time.


Also, you aren't eligible for a active duty CAC card until you go to NJS as well. So if you get an ID while at ODS it'll be the green reserve one.

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JEB
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby JEB » Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:42 am

S. Goodman wrote:
JEB wrote:
S. Goodman wrote:
So, if you're in that first ODS class and you pass the Bar, you'll start NJS literally a couple of days after you graduate ODS. Which is pretty cool; you won't have to waste time going home and waiting, and having a break in pay!! All done in basically one sitting.


Except you will have to get on a plane and go home for a day before flying back. The logic of government bureaucracy.


Not sure why they would do this. Can you elaborate?


According to what LCDR Gehlen sent me, they have to send you home for the weekend between ODS and NJS or there will be pay issues (most likely because of what TheSpanishMain noted regarding going on active status for training for ODS and then being called to active duty as a LTJG for NJS).

So I'm guessing they have to give you orders to get to ODS and then to go home. And they have to give you orders to go to NJS from home after your orders home from ODS?

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S. Goodman
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby S. Goodman » Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:26 pm

JEB wrote:
According to what LCDR Gehlen sent me, they have to send you home for the weekend between ODS and NJS or there will be pay issues (most likely because of what TheSpanishMain noted regarding going on active status for training for ODS and then being called to active duty as a LTJG for NJS).

So I'm guessing they have to give you orders to get to ODS and then to go home. And they have to give you orders to go to NJS from home after your orders home from ODS?



Seems silly and illogical. Regardless though of what your orders say, it doesn't really matter where you go while executing orders, or how you get there. So long as you report to your ordered location before the deadline I don't think anyone really cares. For travel reimbursement though it may matter, which really wouldn't be a factor when you consider leaving ODS and walking down the road for NJS. lol E.g. if you get orders from Fl to CA and they issue you a plane ticket, you couldn't then drive and seek reimbursement for fuel and hotel stays. Nothing saying you couldn't drive, so long as you reported to your duty station on time, and paid for your own expenses of course.

Besides how could that even be regulated? If they give you a plane ticket to go home for two days before NJS who would know if you really went home? Seems like a lot of hassle and jet lag for what really will amount to a very brief weekend in your home state.

However, they may do the whole plane ticket rigmarole so they don't have to provide lodging and food between ODS and NJS. Since you are only activated for ODS, and don't begin active duty until NJS. But again, you could simply pay for your own lodging and food if you wanted to just hang out in Rhode Island for a couple of days.

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JEB
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby JEB » Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:40 pm

S. Goodman wrote:
JEB wrote:
According to what LCDR Gehlen sent me, they have to send you home for the weekend between ODS and NJS or there will be pay issues (most likely because of what TheSpanishMain noted regarding going on active status for training for ODS and then being called to active duty as a LTJG for NJS).

So I'm guessing they have to give you orders to get to ODS and then to go home. And they have to give you orders to go to NJS from home after your orders home from ODS?



Seems silly and illogical. Regardless though of what your orders say, it doesn't really matter where you go while executing orders, or how you get there. So long as you report to your ordered location before the deadline I don't think anyone really cares. For travel reimbursement though it may matter, which really wouldn't be a factor when you consider leaving ODS and walking down the road for NJS. lol E.g. if you get orders from Fl to CA and they issue you a plane ticket, you couldn't then drive and seek reimbursement for fuel and hotel stays. Nothing saying you couldn't drive, so long as you reported to your duty station on time, and paid for your own expenses of course.

Besides how could that even be regulated? If they give you a plane ticket to go home for two days before NJS who would know if you really went home? Seems like a lot of hassle and jet lag for what really will amount to a very brief weekend in your home state.

However, they may do the whole plane ticket rigmarole so they don't have to provide lodging and food between ODS and NJS. Since you are only activated for ODS, and don't begin active duty until NJS. But again, you could simply pay for your own lodging and food if you wanted to just hang out in Rhode Island for a couple of days.


That was my thought. I'm not terribly worried about it at this point. Seems like it would be a good time to drive up and visit Boston. I figure I'll ask later this year when it's more urgent.

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby TheSpanishMain » Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:10 pm

This is just idle curiosity, but does anyone know how the board actually works? Like, do they just get a bunch of O5's and O6's together in Millington? Is it in DC at the HQ?

Fed_Atty
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby Fed_Atty » Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:50 pm

They try to make it mirror a Navy promotion board. Each board will have at least one recorder, almost always an O3. The recorder will work with the accessions office to make sure packages are complete prior to the board. The recorder will typically assign each member of the board an equal number of packages. The senior officer for each panel is the board president, the president may let panel member review records prior to the board commencing, but sometimes will not. The JAG will typically address the panel on day 1 of the board. The board members will review each record assigned to them and make a 1 page sheet highlighting relevant facts, law school, GPA, LSAT etc. Typically the member will also assign a preliminary rating, usually select, not select or crunch. Once all the records have been reviewed, the board will meet and proceed round robin. Each
Member will present a record and at the conclusion of the presentation there is a chance for discussions and follow up. Each member will also have access to the entire file on each applicant. The record is then voted. Members can vote either 100, 75, 50, 25 or 0. The higher the score the greater the confidence. The board members will know the number of applicants they are allowed to select at the outset of the board. At the end of the first round of voting, the various scores will be put up. No other identifying info though. The members will simply see the scores and the number of people with each score. For example with a 7 person board, the max score is 700 and the lowest could be 0. leta also say there were 100 records and they were authorized to select 25. A member might make a
Motion to tentatively select the top 10 scorers, drop the bottom
40, and revote the remaining 50. Those in the middle 50 are referred to as the crunch. The members then do the exact same thing as they did before, each record is rebriefed and revolted on. Once again the scores are compiled and motions will be made to select and deselect certain records and there may indeed be another crunch. This goes on until they have selected the max number of records. Some caveats, the board can choose to select less than the authorized number and there is a preboard that meets to preliminarily deselect certain records based on a multiplier of the structured interview score and LSAT.

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S. Goodman
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby S. Goodman » Wed Feb 03, 2016 7:42 pm

Fed_Atty wrote:They try to make it mirror a Navy promotion board. Each board will have at least one recorder, almost always an O3. The recorder will work with the accessions office to make sure packages are complete prior to the board. The recorder will typically assign each member of the board an equal number of packages. The senior officer for each panel is the board president, the president may let panel member review records prior to the board commencing, but sometimes will not. The JAG will typically address the panel on day 1 of the board. The board members will review each record assigned to them and make a 1 page sheet highlighting relevant facts, law school, GPA, LSAT etc. Typically the member will also assign a preliminary rating, usually select, not select or crunch. Once all the records have been reviewed, the board will meet and proceed round robin. Each
Member will present a record and at the conclusion of the presentation there is a chance for discussions and follow up. Each member will also have access to the entire file on each applicant. The record is then voted. Members can vote either 100, 75, 50, 25 or 0. The higher the score the greater the confidence. The board members will know the number of applicants they are allowed to select at the outset of the board. At the end of the first round of voting, the various scores will be put up. No other identifying info though. The members will simply see the scores and the number of people with each score. For example with a 7 person board, the max score is 700 and the lowest could be 0. leta also say there were 100 records and they were authorized to select 25. A member might make a
Motion to tentatively select the top 10 scorers, drop the bottom
40, and revote the remaining 50. Those in the middle 50 are referred to as the crunch. The members then do the exact same thing as they did before, each record is rebriefed and revolted on. Once again the scores are compiled and motions will be made to select and deselect certain records and there may indeed be another crunch. This goes on until they have selected the max number of records. Some caveats, the board can choose to select less than the authorized number and there is a preboard that meets to preliminarily deselect certain records based on a multiplier of the structured interview score and LSAT.


That would be awesome if they released your scores on this, and on the structured interview. If you get in you're stuck wondering by what margin you were accepted, was it close etc. But if you don't get in you're left not knowing again how close you were, or where you could improve, structured interview or otherwise. But that probably would take a lot of work and time to do, but it would be nice!

Thanks for the information!

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OtterLaw
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby OtterLaw » Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:16 pm

S. Goodman wrote:
Fed_Atty wrote:They try to make it mirror a Navy promotion board. Each board will have at least one recorder, almost always an O3. The recorder will work with the accessions office to make sure packages are complete prior to the board. The recorder will typically assign each member of the board an equal number of packages. The senior officer for each panel is the board president, the president may let panel member review records prior to the board commencing, but sometimes will not. The JAG will typically address the panel on day 1 of the board. The board members will review each record assigned to them and make a 1 page sheet highlighting relevant facts, law school, GPA, LSAT etc. Typically the member will also assign a preliminary rating, usually select, not select or crunch. Once all the records have been reviewed, the board will meet and proceed round robin. Each
Member will present a record and at the conclusion of the presentation there is a chance for discussions and follow up. Each member will also have access to the entire file on each applicant. The record is then voted. Members can vote either 100, 75, 50, 25 or 0. The higher the score the greater the confidence. The board members will know the number of applicants they are allowed to select at the outset of the board. At the end of the first round of voting, the various scores will be put up. No other identifying info though. The members will simply see the scores and the number of people with each score. For example with a 7 person board, the max score is 700 and the lowest could be 0. leta also say there were 100 records and they were authorized to select 25. A member might make a
Motion to tentatively select the top 10 scorers, drop the bottom
40, and revote the remaining 50. Those in the middle 50 are referred to as the crunch. The members then do the exact same thing as they did before, each record is rebriefed and revolted on. Once again the scores are compiled and motions will be made to select and deselect certain records and there may indeed be another crunch. This goes on until they have selected the max number of records. Some caveats, the board can choose to select less than the authorized number and there is a preboard that meets to preliminarily deselect certain records based on a multiplier of the structured interview score and LSAT.


That would be awesome if they released your scores on this, and on the structured interview. If you get in you're stuck wondering by what margin you were accepted, was it close etc. But if you don't get in you're left not knowing again how close you were, or where you could improve, structured interview or otherwise. But that probably would take a lot of work and time to do, but it would be nice!

Thanks for the information!


The Navy JAG In-Service Procurement Program board should be meeting very soon if they haven't already. Any other current enlisted sailors awaiting these results? My chances aren't good this year with them typically only selecting one candidate, but a guy can hope eh?

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S. Goodman
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby S. Goodman » Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:25 pm

Navyhornguy wrote:
The Navy JAG In-Service Procurement Program board should be meeting very soon if they haven't already. Any other current enlisted sailors awaiting these results? My chances aren't good this year with them typically only selecting one candidate, but a guy can hope eh?



Can you educate us on what exactly this is? I think I can almost guess based on the name however. Are you already an attorney? Do you have a bachelors degree? Why'd you enlist? How long have you been active, and why don't you believe you have a shot this year?

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OtterLaw
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby OtterLaw » Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:16 pm

S. Goodman wrote:
Navyhornguy wrote:
The Navy JAG In-Service Procurement Program board should be meeting very soon if they haven't already. Any other current enlisted sailors awaiting these results? My chances aren't good this year with them typically only selecting one candidate, but a guy can hope eh?



Can you educate us on what exactly this is? I think I can almost guess based on the name however. Are you already an attorney? Do you have a bachelors degree? Why'd you enlist? How long have you been active, and why don't you believe you have a shot this year?


It's the Navy's version of FLEP. The Navy puts you through law school while retaining you on active duty with full pay and benefits, and then you owe the JAG Corps six years on the other side.

I have a bachelor's degree and a master's degree actually. I enlisted because they don't offer commissions to musicians (MU rating). Most of us MUs have at least a bachelor's degree if not a master's. Typically there are about 20 applicants every year and they generally take 1. It's my first shot and I know that some people have done this a few times which makes them favorable.

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S. Goodman
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby S. Goodman » Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:49 pm

Navyhornguy wrote:
It's the Navy's version of FLEP. The Navy puts you through law school while retaining you on active duty with full pay and benefits, and then you owe the JAG Corps six years on the other side.

I have a bachelor's degree and a master's degree actually. I enlisted because they don't offer commissions to musicians (MU rating). Most of us MUs have at least a bachelor's degree if not a master's. Typically there are about 20 applicants every year and they generally take 1. It's my first shot and I know that some people have done this a few times which makes them favorable.


Ah I see. Well I guess it depends on how bad you want to be a officer/lawyer/Jag. I'm fairly certain the Marine Corps has a similar program as the FLEP and the one you describe for the Navy. I was enlisted in the Marines before law school, a similar position to yours. I didn't think I could be competitive enough to get into such a sought after program though, not to mention I didn't want to wait to get into the program, if I were to get in at all.

Have you considered getting out and just going to law school and applying to jag that way? I know having an unnecessary break in service isn't desirable. But getting out to get back in later (shockingly) seems much much easier than trying to get into one of the highly selective enlisted to Jag programs.

uvandy
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby uvandy » Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:01 pm

Navyhornguy wrote:
S. Goodman wrote:
Navyhornguy wrote:
The Navy JAG In-Service Procurement Program board should be meeting very soon if they haven't already. Any other current enlisted sailors awaiting these results? My chances aren't good this year with them typically only selecting one candidate, but a guy can hope eh?



Can you educate us on what exactly this is? I think I can almost guess based on the name however. Are you already an attorney? Do you have a bachelors degree? Why'd you enlist? How long have you been active, and why don't you believe you have a shot this year?


It's the Navy's version of FLEP. The Navy puts you through law school while retaining you on active duty with full pay and benefits, and then you owe the JAG Corps six years on the other side.

I have a bachelor's degree and a master's degree actually. I enlisted because they don't offer commissions to musicians (MU rating). Most of us MUs have at least a bachelor's degree if not a master's. Typically there are about 20 applicants every year and they generally take 1. It's my first shot and I know that some people have done this a few times which makes them favorable.
FLEP is only officers. Unlike the other branches, Navy has a similar program for enlisted as well.

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OtterLaw
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby OtterLaw » Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:10 pm

S. Goodman wrote:
Navyhornguy wrote:
It's the Navy's version of FLEP. The Navy puts you through law school while retaining you on active duty with full pay and benefits, and then you owe the JAG Corps six years on the other side.

I have a bachelor's degree and a master's degree actually. I enlisted because they don't offer commissions to musicians (MU rating). Most of us MUs have at least a bachelor's degree if not a master's. Typically there are about 20 applicants every year and they generally take 1. It's my first shot and I know that some people have done this a few times which makes them favorable.


Ah I see. Well I guess it depends on how bad you want to be a officer/lawyer/Jag. I'm fairly certain the Marine Corps has a similar program as the FLEP and the one you describe for the Navy. I was enlisted in the Marines before law school, a similar position to yours. I didn't think I could be competitive enough to get into such a sought after program though, not to mention I didn't want to wait to get into the program, if I were to get in at all.

Have you considered getting out and just going to law school and applying to jag that way? I know having an unnecessary break in service isn't desirable. But getting out to get back in later (shockingly) seems much much easier than trying to get into one of the highly selective enlisted to Jag programs.


I've decided that if I don't get selected for this program, I am going to go ahead and get out and go to law school anyway. I will probably apply for the JAG Corps on the other side. I want to be a lawyer either way.

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S. Goodman
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby S. Goodman » Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:45 pm

Navyhornguy wrote:
I've decided that if I don't get selected for this program, I am going to go ahead and get out and go to law school anyway. I will probably apply for the JAG Corps on the other side. I want to be a lawyer either way.



Oh okay. Prior service ought to help you with a jag application. Although, that isn't necessarily the case. Try to aim high with the school you go to, and then of course grades once you get there! Good luck.

wg6524
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby wg6524 » Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:27 am

And, another round starts again! How many folks are in this round?

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Stubbazubba
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby Stubbazubba » Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:41 am

wg6524 wrote:And, another round starts again! How many folks are in this round?


In, as in applied? If yes, then I am.

Edit: Question for those who have already gone through ODS and BLC, how long after you finish at NJS do you start your first tour?

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S. Goodman
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby S. Goodman » Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:51 pm

Stubbazubba wrote:
wg6524 wrote:And, another round starts again! How many folks are in this round?


In, as in applied? If yes, then I am.

Edit: Question for those who have already gone through ODS and BLC, how long after you finish at NJS do you start your first tour?



I haven't been yet. But from my understanding you have active duty orders from NJS to your first duty station, with approximately 10 days to get you and your stuff there. It could be more or less days in between, but you 'start' work almost immediately, as far as I know.




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