Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program Forum

[lawschoolgirl12345]

I was looking into the military pay for Navy JAG's online and I understand as a Navy JAG one would receive a salary plus housing allowance as well as other benefits. I found a calculator from the Navy website that lets you input your zip code to determine how much housing allowance you could receive in a specific area. I chose a San Diego zip code and the calculator came back with an amount of $2,300 which, I think, is pretty generous. I think I could easily find an apartment for $1,500 in San Diego, so I'm wondering what will happen if I don't use the whole amount of the housing allowance offered? Do I get to cash the rest of the money or is it returned to the Navy?

[Wipfelder]

Do I get to cash the rest of the money or is it returned to the Navy?

The money is yours to do with as your please, unless you are overseas (permanently stationed in another country). Most officers with two dependents or less can have all their housing expenses covered in BAH. That would include utilities, renters insurance, internet bill.

[S. Goodman]

That is not something that is JAG specific. Congress has overhauled the military retirement system. See the following article for a summary

http://paycheck-chronicles.military.com ... /15/10128/

If you elect to go into the new system you can get matching contributions beginning with your 3rd year of service.

If you are planning on retiring from the service then the old retirement system is by far and away the better choice. But matching contributions is better if you're only planning on being in for a short while. IMO. I'm fairly certain that you can opt out of the new retirement system for the next couple of years, after that you're stuck with the new system.

[CharlieAvocado]

That is not something that is JAG specific. Congress has overhauled the military retirement system. See the following article for a summary

http://paycheck-chronicles.military.com ... /15/10128/

If you elect to go into the new system you can get matching contributions beginning with your 3rd year of service.

If you are planning on retiring from the service then the old retirement system is by far and away the better choice. But matching contributions is better if you're only planning on being in for a short while. IMO. I'm fairly certain that you can opt out of the new retirement system for the next couple of years, after that you're stuck with the new system.

What about if you want to stay in, but you're not sure they'll keep you? Gamble that they'll keep you? Or pick the new system?

[cubbies44]

That is not something that is JAG specific. Congress has overhauled the military retirement system. See the following article for a summary

http://paycheck-chronicles.military.com ... /15/10128/

If you elect to go into the new system you can get matching contributions beginning with your 3rd year of service.

If you are planning on retiring from the service then the old retirement system is by far and away the better choice. But matching contributions is better if you're only planning on being in for a short while. IMO. I'm fairly certain that you can opt out of the new retirement system for the next couple of years, after that you're stuck with the new system.

What about if you want to stay in, but you're not sure they'll keep you? Gamble that they'll keep you? Or pick the new system?

At least from what I've read, if you want to stay in, you stay in. Unless you are absolutely terrible they will keep you.

[usn26]

That is not something that is JAG specific. Congress has overhauled the military retirement system. See the following article for a summary

http://paycheck-chronicles.military.com ... /15/10128/

If you elect to go into the new system you can get matching contributions beginning with your 3rd year of service.

If you are planning on retiring from the service then the old retirement system is by far and away the better choice. But matching contributions is better if you're only planning on being in for a short while. IMO. I'm fairly certain that you can opt out of the new retirement system for the next couple of years, after that you're stuck with the new system.

Is it really? (actually asking) I haven't done the math but 40% vice 50% of base doesn't seem like too much to give up given the matching contributions and the security blanket if you don't/can't get to 20 for some reason.

[S. Goodman]

That is not something that is JAG specific. Congress has overhauled the military retirement system. See the following article for a summary

http://paycheck-chronicles.military.com ... /15/10128/

If you elect to go into the new system you can get matching contributions beginning with your 3rd year of service.

If you are planning on retiring from the service then the old retirement system is by far and away the better choice. But matching contributions is better if you're only planning on being in for a short while. IMO. I'm fairly certain that you can opt out of the new retirement system for the next couple of years, after that you're stuck with the new system.

Is it really? (actually asking) I haven't done the math but 40% vice 50% of base doesn't seem like too much to give up given the matching contributions and the security blanket if you don't/can't get to 20 for some reason.

From what I've read the new plan is not a defined benefit plan that vests after 20 years of service, it is a 401K type plan that is like its civilian counterpart. You don't pay anything for the old plan, and it vests and begins to pay out immediately upon retirement, potentially when you're in your late 30's or early 40's, versus the TSP that you must pay for and can't collect from without penalties until you're in your 60's.

I may be mistaken about the details of the new plan though, do you have a link to a reputable source detailing it?

[S. Goodman]

Also, my info has been updated for ID purposes! So I should be able to get an ID now, along with everyone else going to ODS soon, theoretically. Thanks for the heads up JEB!

[cubbies44]

Still waiting... So for those who found out spring, when did your contract come in?

[usn26]

From what I've read the new plan is not a defined benefit plan that vests after 20 years of service, it is a 401K type plan that is like its civilian counterpart. You don't pay anything for the old plan, and it vests and begins to pay out immediately upon retirement, potentially when you're in your late 30's or early 40's, versus the TSP that you must pay for and can't collect from without penalties until you're in your 60's.

I may be mistaken about the details of the new plan though, do you have a link to a reputable source detailing it?

I think the Navy Times articles etc say that there's still a defined benefit, just smaller. But here's the official message sent out to Coasties that confirms.

https://www.uscg.mil/announcements/alco ... LCOAST.txt

[S. Goodman]

From what I've read the new plan is not a defined benefit plan that vests after 20 years of service, it is a 401K type plan that is like its civilian counterpart. You don't pay anything for the old plan, and it vests and begins to pay out immediately upon retirement, potentially when you're in your late 30's or early 40's, versus the TSP that you must pay for and can't collect from without penalties until you're in your 60's.

I may be mistaken about the details of the new plan though, do you have a link to a reputable source detailing it?

I think the Navy Times articles etc say that there's still a defined benefit, just smaller. But here's the official message sent out to Coasties that confirms.

https://www.uscg.mil/announcements/alco ... LCOAST.txt

Yeah I guess this changes my opinion, the reduction from 50% to 40% doesn't seem so bad if you're get matching contributions.

[cubbies44]

Received an email that they are only waiting on scrolls to come in and then I should be able to sign. A. What does that mean? B. How long does that take?

[JEB]

Received an email that they are only waiting on scrolls to come in and then I should be able to sign. A. What does that mean? B. How long does that take?

The scrolls are the lists of people to be commissioned.

Essentially, officers of the United States have to be nominated by the President and approved by the Senate, except that Congress can vest the power of appointment in executive branch officials for lower-level officials. (Back to Conlaw...isn't it wonderful?) This includes military officers.

So Congress has put together a statutory scheme so that they don't have to approve every single commission given to an O-1. They have to be nominated through a scrolling process, in which the names are put on a scroll (not a literal scroll) and someone in the Department of Defense checks each name to make sure they meet the requirements to be commissioned, then that is forwarded to whichever Cabinet member has to give the approval (not sure if it's SecDef or SecNav), then they approve it and COMDOCS can be issued for everyone on the approved scroll.

[cubbies44]

Received an email that they are only waiting on scrolls to come in and then I should be able to sign. A. What does that mean? B. How long does that take?

The scrolls are the lists of people to be commissioned.

Essentially, officers of the United States have to be nominated by the President and approved by the Senate, except that Congress can vest the power of appointment in executive branch officials for lower-level officials. (Back to Conlaw...isn't it wonderful?) This includes military officers.

So Congress has put together a statutory scheme so that they don't have to approve every single commission given to an O-1. They have to be nominated through a scrolling process, in which the names are put on a scroll (not a literal scroll) and someone in the Department of Defense checks each name to make sure they meet the requirements to be commissioned, then that is forwarded to whichever Cabinet member has to give the approval (not sure if it's SecDef or SecNav), then they approve it and COMDOCS can be issued for everyone on the approved scroll.

Wow, thanks haha that was a lot more thorough than I was expecting. Do you know how long that should take? Like, am I signing next week probably or is it several weeks away still?

[JEB]

Depends on when the name gets put on the scroll in the checking process. Could be a week, could be a month. With luck, you'll be getting your COMDOCS in within about 2 weeks and then you'll have to schedule a time to go in and do the oath of office and commission.

[SEC_Law]

Quick question for everyone about the qualifications for SP...Please see below:

"be a law student with at least one year of school completed, attending an American Bar Association (ABA)-accredited school, or a graduate of an ABA-accredited law school who has not yet had the opportunity to take the first available bar exam following graduation. Students who attend law school part time or intend to matriculate in a dual degree program must be within two years of completing all remaining degree requirements;"

I graduated in May of 2016. Does this mean that I can still apply even though I haven't taken the bar (taking it Tues and Wed - July 26 and 27)? Just wondering if this is available as a last ditch effort to be considered.

Any quick response would be great since time is of the essence (that's studying for Contracts coming through).

[JEB]

Depends on where you're taking the bar exam would be my guess. If you won't have your results yet, I would suspect that you're still eligible to apply. If you will, then you'll probably have to apply as a DA applicant. I'd call JAG Accessions ((901) 874-4084) and ask them, though.

[SEC_Law]

Depends on where you're taking the bar exam would be my guess. If you won't have your results yet, I would suspect that you're still eligible to apply. If you will, then you'll probably have to apply as a DA applicant. I'd call JAG Accessions ((901) 874-4084) and ask them, though.

Talked with LCDR Ghelen (sp?), and I will have to wait for the DA Application probably for the Spring unless my results and bar license come in before the deadline this time around.

Since this is an active board, I'd like to ask some questions about being a DA applicant for anyone who might have some info.

1. Do "super-3L's" really have a fighting chance? I talked with a CDR who does application review and he said that sometimes they do. Most of this depends on whether they were a strong applicant who was in the running for the SP, but not picked due to the quota running out. Example: let's say you were ranked a 7 as an SP applicant and are turning right around and applying for DA right after graduation...you are a super-3L. If they didn't take you for SP because their quota was 25 people and there were 25 people ranked higher than a 7, you might get in for DA.

Anyone have experience with this happening to them?

2. Was anyone accepted right after graduation from law school without obtaining a substantial professional record? Meaning, is anyone out there a super-3L who got picked up right after graduation before they had a chance to really develop a professional standing in the civilian world? If so, please share.

3. Is DA even worth applying for if you got rejected both times you applied to SP and are a super-3L with no federal or state judicial clerkship? I know people may wait for DA if they are doing a judicial clerkship. I am not, so would I even be in the running? As I said in my previous post, I am a former intern who was top 1/3rd of class at an unranked law school. I know there is going to come a time where I give up applying, but I don't necessarily think that time is now. As in, I'm not planning to apply once I am out of law school for 2-3 years and have a steady job where I can support my family. It just wouldn't make sense to leave that. However, as of now I have no employment with a couple feeler's still out there, so I think I should still try to get DA.

This has been a long post, but as you can see I've got some decisions to make fairly soon. Any help/advice/counsel/"nuggets" of information whatsoever would be much appreciated.

[CharlieAvocado]

Any females here that have recently gone through MEPS willing to answer a few questions, and willing to PM me for them? Thanks!

[S. Goodman]

I know there is going to come a time where I give up applying, but I don't necessarily think that time is now. As in, I'm not planning to apply once I am out of law school for 2-3 years and have a steady job where I can support my family. It just wouldn't make sense to leave that. However, as of now I have no employment with a couple feeler's still out there, so I think I should still try to get DA.

So you're basically only applying because you need a job to support your family, not because you have any interest in serving? I'm not on the admissions board, but if I were I wouldn't want to hire someone who had no commitment or interest in my cause or what I stood for, other than to collect a paycheck until something better comes along.

If your heart isn't in it, perhaps you should look somewhere else. Moreover, if your heart isn't in it that likely will come across in your application, and lead to you getting dinged.

[cubbies44]

Any females here that have recently gone through MEPS willing to answer a few questions, and willing to PM me for them? Thanks!

I went through MEPS in May if you have any questions. You can PM me if you want

[SEC_Law]

I know there is going to come a time where I give up applying, but I don't necessarily think that time is now. As in, I'm not planning to apply once I am out of law school for 2-3 years and have a steady job where I can support my family. It just wouldn't make sense to leave that. However, as of now I have no employment with a couple feeler's still out there, so I think I should still try to get DA.

So you're basically only applying because you need a job to support your family, not because you have any interest in serving? I'm not on the admissions board, but if I were I wouldn't want to hire someone who had no commitment or interest in my cause or what I stood for, other than to collect a paycheck until something better comes along.

If your heart isn't in it, perhaps you should look somewhere else. Moreover, if your heart isn't in it that likely will come across in your application, and lead to you getting dinged.

Not at all what I'm saying. Trust me when I say this is the career path I want for my life and it has been my goal to be a Naval Officer since summer after 1L year.

What I'm saying is that since the SP is not an option for me, I've got to make plans for the worst. In my opinion it's always better to be prepared for the worst (not getting picked up) and then be pleasantly surprised.

I don't think that the time is now where I need to just "get a job" because this is certainly what I want to do. But I can't just sit around and wait for 4 years to get picked up. I've got to make plans for now.

All I was asking is whether any super-3Ls out there have been in my shoes and whether I would have a fighting chance. As with anything, there is going to come a time where it is no longer feasible and I have to accept that JAG is simply not in the cards for me.

Sorry if that came across as not being passionate. Just to clarify that I would definitely be ready to put in a full 20 years should I ever get picked up through the DA program.

[usn26]

I know there is going to come a time where I give up applying, but I don't necessarily think that time is now. As in, I'm not planning to apply once I am out of law school for 2-3 years and have a steady job where I can support my family. It just wouldn't make sense to leave that.

I don't think that the time is now where I need to just "get a job" because this is certainly what I want to do. But I can't just sit around and wait for 4 years to get picked up. I've got to make plans for now.

Sorry if that came across as not being passionate. Just to clarify that I would definitely be ready to put in a full 20 years should I ever get picked up through the DA program.

I don't really understand the logic here. Unless you're at a big/midlaw firm it's not like you'd be taking a pay cut to go do JAG. And if you're not taking a pay cut what else would keep you from leaving for JAG if that's what you really want?

Also, it's generally a bad idea to describe your desire to serve in "20" terms, just as a matter of good application/interview practices. I assume you're passionate about doing JAG even if you can't (necessarily) do 20, but that's just one of those things I've heard that people can say without thinking that can get people in trouble.

Anyway, just apply. Worst they can say is no, and if they say no as you continue to apply they'll see that persistence and that has a tendency to be rewarded. If you want to be a JAG you just keep applying and trying to get better and more competitive until you (1) turn 42 or (2) give up. If you haven't given up yet, just keep on getting better and pushing through. I mean that seems very generic but that's really all there is to it.

[Ramrezyeh]

I know there is going to come a time where I give up applying, but I don't necessarily think that time is now. As in, I'm not planning to apply once I am out of law school for 2-3 years and have a steady job where I can support my family. It just wouldn't make sense to leave that.

I don't think that the time is now where I need to just "get a job" because this is certainly what I want to do. But I can't just sit around and wait for 4 years to get picked up. I've got to make plans for now.

Sorry if that came across as not being passionate. Just to clarify that I would definitely be ready to put in a full 20 years should I ever get picked up through the DA program.

I don't really understand the logic here. Unless you're at a big/midlaw firm it's not like you'd be taking a pay cut to go do JAG. And if you're not taking a pay cut what else would keep you from leaving for JAG if that's what you really want?

Also, it's generally a bad idea to describe your desire to serve in "20" terms, just as a matter of good application/interview practices. I assume you're passionate about doing JAG even if you can't (necessarily) do 20, but that's just one of those things I've heard that people can say without thinking that can get people in trouble.

Anyway, just apply. Worst they can say is no, and if they say no as you continue to apply they'll see that persistence and that has a tendency to be rewarded. If you want to be a JAG you just keep applying and trying to get better and more competitive until you (1) turn 42 or (2) give up. If you haven't given up yet, just keep on getting better and pushing through. I mean that seems very generic but that's really all there is to it.

This is the advice that was given to me (my school) by a JAG recruiter who was himself a DA applicant. Honor, Courage, Commitment.. applying over and over again shows commitment. If I remember the details of his story correctly, and I hung on every word because I was very interested myself, he applied twice as a 3L and then again as a DA. He may have gotten a prosecutor job after school, which may have worked in his favor showing a commitment to work in government/public service, but I am not 100% certain on that detail. Keep applying as long as you keep wanting to be in the Navy.

[S. Goodman]

I haven't gotten orders to ODS yet, my understanding is that they are written and ready to go, but they're waiting on the funding.

But I did find out where I'm going to be stationed, I got my number one choice!