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jbagelboy
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:52 pm

BruceWayne wrote:It's amazing how bad the info on this website is when it comes to the academic experience @ top schools. Straight lmao @ "discretionary B-" and "have to try to get a C". I've had people who landed top grades look at "C" exams in shock at what it actually takes to get B- and C grades @ my top 10. It sure as hell not just an "outline dump". Basically all it takes is to be subjectively worse in any way than a class full of ivy league/Stanford etc. 99 percentile salutorians and valedictorians. Want one example of what qualifies? Typing 10 pages or less on your exam answer.

That being said an F truly is exceptional and should really only be used where students skip the exam or clearly don't take the exam seriously. Other than that a professor giving out F's is being completely irresponsible and a jackass.


depends on the "T10." LP/B- is discretionary sometimes and would really be the lowest a student would receive for a good faith effort. and you can interpret "good faith" very loosely; I mean, if you showed up and wrote something, in english, on the subject of the course, that bore some relation to the fact pattern or question being asked.

You are right that to be near the bottom of the curve isn't actually that hard at a top school when you are competing against other bright kids who can write. However, if your exam is just worse than everyone else's, that doesn't necessarily mean you'll receiving a trash grade, you will most likely just get the bottom grade on the curve. You typically do have to do something "negative" rather than just neutral to receive a discretionary grade. For example, making blatantly incorrect or inappropriate statements about very simple legal principles, rather than just forgetting to cite or mention them.

Desperado
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby Desperado » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:04 pm

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Last edited by Desperado on Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AReasonableMan
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby AReasonableMan » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:15 pm

Desperado wrote:Thanks for all the comments but I really need to know if I do get the F is there anything I can do about it? Appeal process? Somehow get an incomplete? anything?

As of right now Ive been offered to re-start next year, though the grade would stay on the transcript. I would re-take the course. I am not sure if both would count towards my GPA.

I think the F would be a scarlet letter to most employers. If you could negotiate to restart or withdraw that'd be much better. You may need all A's to counteract it. You would have to ask recruiting how they look at repeated classes in factoring their cutoff. There may be a generalized method, but I am apparently slow so may be wrong. If a median is hypothetically a 3.5, think about how far it is to be above that with a 4 credit 0.00.

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TFALAWL
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby TFALAWL » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:23 pm

Desperado wrote:
Sheriff wrote:
Desperado wrote:Not a flame, just genuinely struggled on the exam and got too flustered to realize I should have just started writing nonsense. I know how badly I messed up and if I could change what happened, I obviously would. So now that it has happened is there anything at all i can do about it? Is there anyone else I should speak to?


You can try speaking to the professor, since he decides your grade. It seems like the Dean isn't going to give you much help. After that, sorry to say, but you're probably out of options. You're at a T10 though. Just turn it around next semester, unless you're paying sticker. In which case, re-assess.

EDIT: Saw that you wrote dean of students, and not "the" dean. I guess you could always go up the chain of command until you get what you want, but I would speak to prof first and then wait and see. If you do decide to start going up the ladder, don't expect to be very popular for the next 2 1/2 years.



Nieve 1L question, but are you allowed to speak with the professor under these circumstances if it was anonymous grading? Would that be a violation of the honor code?



Ok, now that you've outed yourself as a UVA student, if you feel comfortable, PM me the name of the teacher/class, and I can probably tell you the lowest possible grade. NOBODY at UVA-LAWL gets F's .... or D's ..... C+'s can theoretically happen -- I've never heard of anyone getting lower than a C + though.

If it's any cold-comfort, I got the lowest raw score on one of my exams b/c I misread the first fact-pattern and did a bunch of other nonsense (I think I only actually wrote like 5 pages). Anyways.... I got a B, b/c the teacher doesn't give lower than that..... I finished the semester above-median, and subsequently the rest of the year, I have a V20 2L SA lined up .... You will be fine. : :D

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:42 pm

For the record, there are LOTS of schools besides UVA that have anonymous grading and honor codes.

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BVest
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby BVest » Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:39 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:For the record, there are LOTS of schools besides UVA that have anonymous grading and honor codes.


Yeah, I re-read that post several times and, unless UVA has a common misspelling of naïve that is found nowhere else, I am not sure how OP is purported to have outed their school.

AReasonableMan
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby AReasonableMan » Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:21 am

I think the professor would realize you froze. If it's a special situation then ask the dean. I'm sure most professors would be capable of being mostly objective irrespective of blind grading unless they had a god complex. I'm also sure blind grading is as much to protect the schools as it is to protect their students. There are exceptions to most rules. This doesn't seem like an exception (I'd imagine choking is pretty common and a percentage do every 1L class).

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BruceWayne
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:56 pm

GOATlawman wrote:
AReasonableMan wrote:I don't want to offend you or give myself bad karma, but it is as hard to get a C as it is to get an A+. If you get a C with even a little effort you really don't belong in law school. It's really the same as someone who gets a 145 LSAT. If the person choked and it's just one test they may be able to come back from it. With that level of performance anxiety, they should def get counseling no matter what they choose.

I would guess the F's are cheating related. Honestly, it seems like a much better way of handling it than expulsion. Benefits the whole class, and still punishes the cheater.


You seem slow bro. Even within the T14, curves vary

Apparently at CLS median is like 3.5 and B is pretty much the bottom grade

There are also multiple T14s that I know where B- is mandated by the curve and some professors regularly give the next lowest grade below B-, which is a C.
Bruce Wayne pretty accurately described my experience


FTR this is exactly what I meant by "I could go on" lol. Didn't feel like typing this up myself but you summed it up nicely.

Also the other thing the poster you responded to is not considering are the variables that exist even within the SAME school. For example law review students/high achievers often flock to specific classes/professors. Many of those professors also happen to be the types that like to give out A+'s and a good bit of A's. Guess how that has to be balanced out to get a mean of a 3.3 or whatever number the school requires? It's not hard to get a B- or a even a C in a class like that--especially if you happen to take the class and AREN'T the law review type student. Yeah it's a "rookie" mistake to put yourself in that situation but it always happens to some blissfully unaware soul. It doesn't mean that they "don't even belong in law school" and that you "practically have to try" to get a C. Now in fairness I know that some schools are actually addressing this particular problem specifically by upping the allowed mean for classes where the average GPA of the students taking the course is higher.

AReasonableMan
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby AReasonableMan » Sun Dec 21, 2014 6:12 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
GOATlawman wrote:
AReasonableMan wrote:I don't want to offend you or give myself bad karma, but it is as hard to get a C as it is to get an A+. If you get a C with even a little effort you really don't belong in law school. It's really the same as someone who gets a 145 LSAT. If the person choked and it's just one test they may be able to come back from it. With that level of performance anxiety, they should def get counseling no matter what they choose.

I would guess the F's are cheating related. Honestly, it seems like a much better way of handling it than expulsion. Benefits the whole class, and still punishes the cheater.


You seem slow bro. Even within the T14, curves vary

Apparently at CLS median is like 3.5 and B is pretty much the bottom grade

There are also multiple T14s that I know where B- is mandated by the curve and some professors regularly give the next lowest grade below B-, which is a C.
Bruce Wayne pretty accurately described my experience


FTR this is exactly what I meant by "I could go on" lol. Didn't feel like typing this up myself but you summed it up nicely.

Also the other thing the poster you responded to is not considering are the variables that exist even within the SAME school. For example law review students/high achievers often flock to specific classes/professors. Many of those professors also happen to be the types that like to give out A+'s and a good bit of A's. Guess how that has to be balanced out to get a mean of a 3.3 or whatever number the school requires? It's not hard to get a B- or a even a C in a class like that--especially if you happen to take the class and AREN'T the law review type student. Yeah it's a "rookie" mistake to put yourself in that situation but it always happens to some blissfully unaware soul. It doesn't mean that they "don't even belong in law school" and that you "practically have to try" to get a C. Now in fairness I know that some schools are actually addressing this particular problem specifically by upping the allowed mean for classes where the average GPA of the students taking the course is higher.

You're resorting to the most extreme example for your argument. If there is a class that has mostly LR then by definition another class must have mostly bottom of the class people. The gunner classes aren't hidden, and it's relatively apparent from the start which ones they are. Obviously if some people are below median others are above it, but it isn't very hard to be above it. It's definitely more work than college but except at the top end, the competitiveness isn't as bad as it's hyped to be.

baaron008
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby baaron008 » Mon Dec 22, 2014 6:37 pm

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