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eriedoctrine
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby eriedoctrine » Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:38 am

Yeah, you had plenty of time.
I went through some tough shit as well and got Evidence down in about 5 days.

victortsoi
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby victortsoi » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:48 am

I think this is the civ pro sophist with an alt. I go to a T1 where royal f-ups are rewarded, 1L, with at worst a C+. You have to literally not study, outline dump, and freak out during a final to get that grade. I can't imagine a T10 giving out an F. thats just not in their MO, and I suspect you want us to tell you that. If you really did horrible, you may get a C. Big if. And, honestly, 6 weeks could have been enough time to ace, let alone pass an exam.

If this isnt a flame, then your dean of students is an out of touch example of everything wrong with legal education. S/He should have told you to calm down and wait. I guess they really want to push the party line of studying all day and making your own outlines or else youre insulting the institution of legal education. Well, hope it works out.

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FSK
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby FSK » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:51 am

Drop out, even if you're not flame.

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BruceWayne
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:26 am

It's amazing how bad the info on this website is when it comes to the academic experience @ top schools. Straight lmao @ "discretionary B-" and "have to try to get a C". I've had people who landed top grades look at "C" exams in shock at what it actually takes to get B- and C grades @ my top 10. It sure as hell not just an "outline dump". Basically all it takes is to be subjectively worse in any way than a class full of ivy league/Stanford etc. 99 percentile salutorians and valedictorians. Want one example of what qualifies? Typing 10 pages or less on your exam answer.

That being said an F truly is exceptional and should really only be used where students skip the exam or clearly don't take the exam seriously. Other than that a professor giving out F's is being completely irresponsible and a jackass.

victortsoi
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby victortsoi » Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:06 am

BruceWayne wrote:It's amazing how bad the info on this website is when it comes to the academic experience @ top schools. Straight lmao @ "discretionary B-" and "have to try to get a C". I've had people who landed top grades look at "C" exams in shock at what it actually takes to get B- and C grades @ my top 10. It sure as hell not just an "outline dump". Basically all it takes is to be subjectively worse in any way than a class full of ivy league/Stanford etc. 99 percentile salutorians and valedictorians. Want one example of what qualifies? Typing 10 pages or less on your exam answer.

That being said an F truly is exceptional and should really only be used where students skip the exam or clearly don't take the exam seriously. Other than that a professor giving out F's is being completely irresponsible and a jackass.


Well, I stand corrected I guess, but I am also genuinely surprised. I should hope, I guess, that a C average at a T10 still opens more doors than median elsewhere. What I was trying to say, and I guess I could be wrong, is that I thought many t10 schools bunch their grades more in the middle, meaning that there are a LOT of B+s and a few outliers on either end, compared with the intense distributions you'd get at a TTT. But you're right, sorry for contributing to the voodoo broscience of grapevine law school grading information.

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Br3v
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby Br3v » Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:15 am

Did you write something obscene in your answer? That's the only thing I could think that would lead a dean to telling you that you deserved an F

victortsoi
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby victortsoi » Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:32 am

do people write obscene things on an exam?

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crumpetsandtea
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby crumpetsandtea » Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:46 am

victortsoi wrote:do people write obscene things on an exam?

Someone I know drew a picture instead of answering one of the questions. Still didn't get a C.

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Sheriff
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby Sheriff » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:00 pm

crumpetsandtea wrote:
victortsoi wrote:do people write obscene things on an exam?

Someone I know drew a picture instead of answering one of the questions. Still didn't get a C.


Elaborate, please.

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BVest
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby BVest » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:10 pm

My 1L civ pro at a T1 had about 240 possible raw score points. The highest score was a 155 (it was an A of course... we didn't have A+). The lowest was a 67. It was a C.

That's not to say that there weren't any Fs. There was the guy who skipped class on the last day (among others) when a prof talked about the exam, then failed to comprehend the instructions (that everyone else understood clearly, btw), and turned in his essays when time was called, then telling the proctor that he was now ready to take the MC/short answer section (which was 60% of the exam). That's what it took to get an F.

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Sheriff
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby Sheriff » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:13 pm

BVest wrote:My 1L civ pro at a T1 had about 240 possible raw score points. The highest score was a 155 (it was an A of course... we didn't have A+). The lowest was a 67. It was a C.

That's not to say that there weren't any Fs. There was the guy who skipped class on the last day (among others) when a prof talked about the exam, then failed to comprehend the instructions (that everyone else understood clearly, btw), and turned in his essays when time was called, then telling the proctor that he was now ready to take the MC/short answer section (which was 60% of the exam). That's what it took to get an F.


That's still pretty effed up. You shouldn't fail for missing a day of class. Prof should've re-covered that in an email.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:17 pm

Please. If you can't figure out the instructions that everyone else figured out, the prof shouldn't have to hand hold you.

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Sheriff
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby Sheriff » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:29 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Please. If you can't figure out the instructions that everyone else figured out, the prof shouldn't have to hand hold you.


The way it was explained, it seems like the prof changed the format on the last day of class, which that student may have missed for a perfectly legitimate reason. If they were a model student for the other 99% of the semester, knew the material, and were well-prepared, that seems like an excessive punishment considering the crime.

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BVest
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby BVest » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:35 pm

Format was the same. The exam was limited to two hours (because it was a two hour class). The only change the prof gave was that if you came in 30 minutes early, you could pick up your exam and outline your essay for thirty minutes but not write anything. Doing so was entirely optional. Of course, these instructions were passed out to everyone (on the front page of the exam) and everyone was asked to read them.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:37 pm

But the post made clear the person wasn't a model student and that the instructions were easily understood, nor did it say that the exam instructions were changed on the last day. How complicated can exam instructions be?

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Sheriff
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby Sheriff » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:41 pm

BVest wrote:Format was the same. The exam was limited to two hours (because it was a two hour class). The only change the prof gave was that if you came in 30 minutes early, you could pick up your exam and outline your essay for thirty minutes but not write anything. Doing so was entirely optional. Of course, these instructions were passed out to everyone (on the front page of the exam) and everyone was asked to read them.


Okay, that's worse than what I had understood.

I think I am just against any Fs being given barring extraordinary circumstances. What will an F accomplish that a C or even a D won't? What even happens to "F" students in 1L doctrinal classes? Do they retake with next year's 1L's?

To be made to suffer that degree of humiliation I think a person should really have to earn it.

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banjo
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby banjo » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:43 pm

Since 2004, one CLS professor has given out exactly 10 grades lower than a B-. That's out of 1200 students. And he's considered one of the harshest graders in 1L for giving B- grades (a whopping 2 last year) when the curve doesn't require it.

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BVest
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby BVest » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:55 pm

This semester I pulled a bunch of grades for 2L/3L courses to try to figure out which one to use an optional P/F in. About 1/3 of the courses had one or two Fs in them, but only one of those profs that had given an F had also given a D, and he only gave one D. So I suspect that the Fs given were not based solely on exam performance.

victortsoi
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby victortsoi » Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:09 pm

I think sometimes the registrar may make mistakes in dropping you for a course that you're not in ,or sometimes, life gets in the way of school and people dont show up for finals and dont follow up about it either.

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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby AReasonableMan » Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:06 pm

BruceWayne wrote:It's amazing how bad the info on this website is when it comes to the academic experience @ top schools. Straight lmao @ "discretionary B-" and "have to try to get a C". I've had people who landed top grades look at "C" exams in shock at what it actually takes to get B- and C grades @ my top 10. It sure as hell not just an "outline dump". Basically all it takes is to be subjectively worse in any way than a class full of ivy league/Stanford etc. 99 percentile salutorians and valedictorians. Want one example of what qualifies? Typing 10 pages or less on your exam answer.

That being said an F truly is exceptional and should really only be used where students skip the exam or clearly don't take the exam seriously. Other than that a professor giving out F's is being completely irresponsible and a jackass.

I don't want to offend you or give myself bad karma, but it is as hard to get a C as it is to get an A+. If you get a C with even a little effort you really don't belong in law school. It's really the same as someone who gets a 145 LSAT. If the person choked and it's just one test they may be able to come back from it. With that level of performance anxiety, they should def get counseling no matter what they choose.

I would guess the F's are cheating related. Honestly, it seems like a much better way of handling it than expulsion. Benefits the whole class, and still punishes the cheater.

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BruceWayne
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby BruceWayne » Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:29 pm

The extent to which you have no idea what you're talking about is amazing. I literally know someone who got an A+ on one exam and a C on another. I could go on but I'll leave it at that.

victortsoi
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby victortsoi » Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:15 pm

BruceWayne wrote:The extent to which you have no idea what you're talking about is amazing. I literally know someone who got an A+ on one exam and a C on another. I could go on but I'll leave it at that.


Thats horrible. Well, to be fair, i got one of very, very few A-s in my first law school exam (the intro to law basic class) because I somehow managed to apply GTM really well on it. Was unable to replicate that awesome grade and have been median pwned ever since.

AReasonableMan
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby AReasonableMan » Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:19 pm

BruceWayne wrote:The extent to which you have no idea what you're talking about is amazing. I literally know someone who got an A+ on one exam and a C on another. I could go on but I'll leave it at that.

I was never on honor roll and in mostly lower classes through grade school. Lit pulled A's with a few days of work in classes at a similar school. I'm no genius. On a blind grades test a Ivy League college or valedictorian high school valedictorian speech is meaningless. Anyone can get an A or a C technically but your friend is an outlier. The data shows that's literally under .01 percent likely. Westlaw 1L grading LR articles.
Last edited by AReasonableMan on Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

GOATlawman
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby GOATlawman » Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:20 pm

AReasonableMan wrote:I don't want to offend you or give myself bad karma, but it is as hard to get a C as it is to get an A+. If you get a C with even a little effort you really don't belong in law school. It's really the same as someone who gets a 145 LSAT. If the person choked and it's just one test they may be able to come back from it. With that level of performance anxiety, they should def get counseling no matter what they choose.

I would guess the F's are cheating related. Honestly, it seems like a much better way of handling it than expulsion. Benefits the whole class, and still punishes the cheater.


You seem slow bro. Even within the T14, curves vary

Apparently at CLS median is like 3.5 and B is pretty much the bottom grade

There are also multiple T14s that I know where B- is mandated by the curve and some professors regularly give the next lowest grade below B-, which is a C.
Bruce Wayne pretty accurately described my experience

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pancakes3
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Re: T10 1L...About to Fail a Doctrinal Class, Please Help!!!

Postby pancakes3 » Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:04 pm

I just assumed F's and even D's were either honor-code or student-conduct related. Cheat, skip too many classes (if there's an attendance requirement). That or just flat out not taking the final. I have a hard time believing someone crammed for 6 weeks and dropped an unintelligible turd on the page. I mean, you're sitting there for 3-4 hrs as it's happening. That's a long fucking panic attack.




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