Report exam cheating to professor?

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Phil Brooks
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Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Postby Phil Brooks » Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:47 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
Phil Brooks wrote:
HardCider wrote:I reported them to the proctors after the exam (which I said poorly in my OP). I also emailed the dean of students to let them know what happened. The dean said my account was all they needed.

As for why, I think it's pretty clear. The class is curved and they were cheating. If there were no curve and everyone could conceivably get an "A", I wouldn't give a fuck; make your money booboo. However, the idea that some cheaters may bump me down a third of a grade and jeopardize my goals pisses me off. The curve requires integrity to be of any use. If there is no integrity in the system, all 1Ls should just try and cheat their way to honors and a job instead of playing things straight-up.

I didn't get into a top school to let some cheaters take anything from me. It wasn't like one person just gave the other their outline. They sat in that room and colluded on the test. The fact that two people blessed with all sorts of privilege (racial, financial, family connections, etc) would have the gall to sit in the school I work my ass off in every day and try to cheat their way above me pisses me off and they need to be reprimanded.


Are you implying that if a poor person of color were cheating, you'd let it slide?

And as long as we're talking about "social justice," what are your lofty "goals"? Let me guess: biglaw?

Typical liberal hypocrite.


i can't decide which of these posts is worse


Fine, the political swipe was stupid. I think OP should report them, but I wish he/she would be honest about the motivations rather than cloaking self-interested behavior in the guise of "fighting privilege."

HardCider
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Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Postby HardCider » Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:49 pm

I absolutely would report regardless of privilege because they are attempting to take something from me. The point I was making was that, whereas I'd have some modicum of understanding for why a poor, unconnected person would think they needed to cheat, I have no sympathy for these individuals.

Phil Brooks
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Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Postby Phil Brooks » Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:50 pm

HardCider wrote:I absolutely would report regardless of privilege because they are attempting to take something from me. The point I was making was that, whereas I'd have some modicum of understanding for why a poor, unconnected person would think they needed to cheat, I have no sympathy for these individuals.


Fair enough. Appreciate the honesty.

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sublime
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Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Postby sublime » Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:58 pm

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GOATlawman
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Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Postby GOATlawman » Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:04 pm

If he/she really pissed you off so much why don't you just fight him/her?

AReasonableMan
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Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Postby AReasonableMan » Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:37 pm

Unless you're sure never report. It's not a possible bomb on a subway, it's a test. The very accusation could screw up their lives. If there's no confession or hard evidence they have to have a choice to confront you. Also, being a rat is bad form and the punishment ( expulsion and failing the bar) is too big for the offense. I've never cheated but the PR rule is bullshit. Makes you a rat to do other people's jobs for them.

Idk how much cheating on a law exam helps. It's a shitty situation but I'm not a rat.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:43 pm

Dude, if there's no evidence the accusation's not going to ruin someone's life. And expulsion isn't a guaranteed punishment (at most schools, anyway). Chill a little.

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sublime
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Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Postby sublime » Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:43 pm

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AReasonableMan
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Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Postby AReasonableMan » Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:47 pm

sublime wrote:Tbh the "I would never tell bc I am not a rat/snitch/whatever" is as lazy as "You have to tell because it is the right thing to do/they are disadvantaging me"

Although I do agree that if I were to consider reporting something, I would have to be pretty damn sure.

What's the evidence of cheating again? How do you know they weren't just comparing answers after the exam but never changed anything?

They need to report the accusation to the bar.

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sublime
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Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Postby sublime » Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:51 pm

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sublime
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Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Postby sublime » Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:52 pm

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AReasonableMan
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Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Postby AReasonableMan » Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:55 pm

Yes it's a violation but we're smart enough to independently analyze the violation. People get nervous and insecure on tests. A lot of students compare answers. The reason it's a violation is because of whatnot can lead to. If your coworker powders their nose every 20 minutes and no clients been affected (works well high) do you report or do you go to them first to try to get them into rehab?

Your school isn't going to charge you for not reporting this minor offense. I've seen or heard of a lot of cheating. It never impacted my grade. Cheating is very time consuming and messes with the wrongdoers head as they take the test unless they're a sociopath. Properly studying let's you work much faster than cheating. Only the bottom of the curve gets hurt.
Last edited by AReasonableMan on Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

HabeasTortoise
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Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Postby HabeasTortoise » Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:59 pm

Most of us do not have a duty to report as per the student handbook; most of the penalties and duties preside with the cheating student only. Even the ABA Model Rules of Ethics do not have a requirement to investigate or report another attorney's misconduct lest they "know" (not the easiest burden to overcome).

With that being said, who even has time to look up during an exam? Unless a smelly proctor that hasn't showered in two days is breathing down my neck, I just stay in the zone. Do the right thing; don't worry about others or their indiscretions.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:07 pm

sublime wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Dude, if there's no evidence the accusation's not going to ruin someone's life. And expulsion isn't a guaranteed punishment (at most schools, anyway). Chill a little.


I feel like an honor code charge, at the absolute least, will REALLY fuck up your life for awhile. And that is the best case scenario. That's why everybody is terrified of them.

Maybe my school was just weird. They negotiated down a lot of honor code violations; I don't know anyone who got expelled even when they fucked up. My impression is that it would take a lot to prove cheating.

I do wonder why on earth would anyone compare answers before turning in a test if they didn't intend to do anything with the results?

Again, if you're going to report, do so because you agreed to do so when you signed an honor code (if you did so. If not, eh). I suppose you can always get all lawyer-y about what "cheating" means to you in deciding this.

And reasonableman, you don't sign an honor code when you take a job. Employees and students aren't the same.

(Habeas, most schools that have honor codes do impose an affirmative duty on the non-cheating students to report. Again, if this school doesn't, then whatever.)

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sublime
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Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Postby sublime » Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:13 pm

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AReasonableMan
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Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Postby AReasonableMan » Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:14 pm

Under the rules of any state bar you absolutely do have to report.

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Ohiobumpkin
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Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Postby Ohiobumpkin » Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:29 pm

jbagelboy wrote:jesus no. why do you care what other ppl do

wouldn't have even told the proctor in the first place


You do know about curves on law school exams, right? How only so many As, Bs, and Cs get handed out.

Report them. You have every reason to do so, and no reason not to. Although, I also agree it would have to be to the Dean of Students most likely.

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sublime
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Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Postby sublime » Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:37 pm

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JAJAcinco
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Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Postby JAJAcinco » Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:42 pm

I don't understand how being a rat/snitch plays into this. A rat is someone who betrays trust. The guy that helped you rob the bank and then turns on you when he gets charged. Thats a rat. But a classmate, in LAW SCHOOL, on a CURVE...c'mon, anyone whose cheating in this situation is well aware of the risks.
The life changing penalty vs once screw-up is a valid consideration. Even a mere accusation will make their life much harder. If you feel sorry for how the cheaters may be screwed career-wise, strike a balance and confront the them (you could even have done this anonymously), and give them an opportunity to own up to it. But it has to get reported.

Tho wtf at that 'privilege/connections' issue. This is the kind of stuff that created the term 'shitlib'. If those factors have ANY weight it could be at the 'sentencing phase' of this whole thing. Its completely understandable that it "pisses you off" (Im a poor URM at a T10, i get where your coming from) but its off-base to let those factors color your take on why they should be reported in the first place. This isn't an orphan drug dealer trying to feed his younger siblings, this is cheating on an exam.

Paul Campos
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Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Postby Paul Campos » Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:01 pm

Leaving aside ethics for the moment, I have trouble imagining how this kind of cheating -- assuming that's what it was -- is even supposed to work from a purely self-interested viewpoint. If the two students sharing answers are of similar ability, then neither should get any significant advantage from knowing the other's choice on a multiple-choice exam. If one student is much stronger than the other, why would the stronger student cooperate, given that by definition she's taking all the risk and getting no gain? Even beyond all this, it just seems bizarre that people would be willing to risk professionally devastating consequences in return for possibly getting a slightly higher grade in an upper level law school course.

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fats provolone
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Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Postby fats provolone » Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:34 pm

you heard it here first, folks: paul campos doesn't care about ethics

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banjo
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Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Postby banjo » Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:46 pm

Wouldn't report it. I use a "what would Phil Dunphy do" test for situations like this, and he would probably find this too awkward/confrontational.

tsutsik
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Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Postby tsutsik » Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:57 pm

Paul Campos wrote:If the two students sharing answers are of similar ability, then neither should get any significant advantage from knowing the other's choice on a multiple-choice exam.


I'm curious why you think this is true. Suppose we're dealing with true/false questions and we've got two cheaters who are each such that, for each individual question, there is a .5 probability that that individual cheater will know the answer and a .5 probability that the cheater will be clueless. If they're sharing information, the probability that they will jointly get the correct answer for any individual question goes up to .75. That's pretty significant. Obviously this simplifies in certain ways. Are you thinking that the ways in which it simplifies makes a big difference? [More generally, the Condorcet jury theorem.]

laxstar1
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Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Postby laxstar1 » Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:12 pm

I'm sorry...but this thread really sums up why TLS posters are no-offered at a disproportionately high rate.

Lot's of good points on both sides for why you should or shouldn't report cheating (it's the "right" thing to do, cheating isn't fair, it can effect your grade vs. it's a pain in the ass, you're going to screw up someones life, it's not really worth your time, it's pretty unlikely to directly effect your grade etc.). As someone who has attended school and taken tests before, none of these arguments really should be novel or new. That at 22+ and in law school you're so incapable of deciding where you fall on the spectrum that you feel the need to ask a forum of strangers what you should do is fairly pathetic...but not as pathetic as this thread turning into defining what a "rat" is, debating whether asking a friend what the answer to question 4 is is cheating/helpful, and trying to justify reporting cheating along racial and socio-economic class lines.

That said...you said in an earlier post that you both (1) immediately reported to the proctor; and (2) sent an email to the dean, who then told you that the account you provided was all that was needed. So I'm not really clear what the purpose of this thread is anyways. But I'll budge and answer the question...since you already emailed the dean, go ahead and email him/her again about whether you are permitted to report the cheating to the professor. Thanks for the thread man...it was a nice break from finals studying.

AReasonableMan
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Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Postby AReasonableMan » Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:26 pm

laxstar1 wrote:I'm sorry...but this thread really sums up why TLS posters are no-offered at a disproportionately high rate.

Lot's of good points on both sides for why you should or shouldn't report cheating (it's the "right" thing to do, cheating isn't fair, it can effect your grade vs. it's a pain in the ass, you're going to screw up someones life, it's not really worth your time, it's pretty unlikely to directly effect your grade etc.). As someone who has attended school and taken tests before, none of these arguments really should be novel or new. That at 22+ and in law school you're so incapable of deciding where you fall on the spectrum that you feel the need to ask a forum of strangers what you should do is fairly pathetic...but not as pathetic as this thread turning into defining what a "rat" is, debating whether asking a friend what the answer to question 4 is is cheating/helpful, and trying to justify reporting cheating along racial and socio-economic class lines.

That said...you said in an earlier post that you both (1) immediately reported to the proctor; and (2) sent an email to the dean, who then told you that the account you provided was all that was needed. So I'm not really clear what the purpose of this thread is anyways. But I'll budge and answer the question...since you already emailed the dean, go ahead and email him/her again about whether you are permitted to report the cheating to the professor. Thanks for the thread man...it was a nice break from finals studying.

In all honesty, if I was certain cheating or another offense occurred either during a test or at work, I would probably speak to friends first without disclosing any names. The opinions of several rational smart individuals collectively tend to be right more often than the opinion of any one particularly in stressful situations (1L exams). Starting a post about it to solicit advice from or vent to strangers is weird. But the decision is pretty important and I disagree you should go about it on a whim. I am sure you might perceive things differently depending on how much weight you invest in a situation. It's not like you're debating whether to buy spinach and kale at the grocery store. You shouldn't whimsically make a judgment.
Last edited by AReasonableMan on Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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