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Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:27 pm
by FKASunny
jbagelboy wrote:
sublime wrote:
B.B. Homemaker wrote:I can't tell which side is actually the holier in this debate.

(fwiw, I didn't say anything about a bro playing very fast and loose with the rules during my exam yesterday. He's a shithead, but also probably one with so little confidence in his ability to do well given a level playing field that he's willing to risk it. Either he'll get caught one day or continue being dumb until he can't hide it anymore, either of which I'm okay with.)



What did they do?

Last year our con law prof said no outlines but what you would write in good faith while reading the text in the margins is ok. Some people played pretty fast and loose with that.


if we include what people bring to the exam under the "cheating" umbrella, it would encompass like a third of the class. profs always say only bring your own outline but esp for 2Ls/3Ls I always see previous year's outlines from the public drives. hell, I've seen people on TLS advise and encourage each other to find outlines all the time from different non-self generated sources


That's not an honor code violation unless your professor says only material created by you. The boiler-plate instruction at our school is something like "any material prepared by you or another student" and then explicitly forbids commercial outlines.

Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:28 pm
by B.B. Homemaker
sublime wrote:
B.B. Homemaker wrote:I can't tell which side is actually the holier in this debate.

(fwiw, I didn't say anything about a bro playing very fast and loose with the rules during my exam yesterday. He's a shithead, but also probably one with so little confidence in his ability to do well given a level playing field that he's willing to risk it. Either he'll get caught one day or continue being dumb until he can't hide it anymore, either of which I'm okay with.)



What did they do?

Last year our con law prof said no outlines but what you would write in good faith while reading the text in the margins is ok. Some people played pretty fast and loose with that.

He didn't seem very fond of either start or stop times.

And yeah, that sounds like my civ pro last year, once people realized all we could bring was our book. "I've been making flow charts in the margins all semester, promise!"

Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:35 pm
by jbagelboy
for most in class exams I've had, the professor has specifically limited what you are "allowed" to bring to the casebook, any class handouts/readings and materials prepared by you. I think Con Law was a major exception because I do remember the professor saying we could bring chemerinsky and other supplemental materials.

Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:40 pm
by pancakes3
Going on hr 11 in the library studying for final, the last and all I have to say is

Image

Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:46 pm
by AReasonableMan
sublime wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
sublime wrote:
B.B. Homemaker wrote:I can't tell which side is actually the holier in this debate.

(fwiw, I didn't say anything about a bro playing very fast and loose with the rules during my exam yesterday. He's a shithead, but also probably one with so little confidence in his ability to do well given a level playing field that he's willing to risk it. Either he'll get caught one day or continue being dumb until he can't hide it anymore, either of which I'm okay with.)



What did they do?

Last year our con law prof said no outlines but what you would write in good faith while reading the text in the margins is ok. Some people played pretty fast and loose with that.


if we include what people bring to the exam under the "cheating" umbrella, it would encompass like a third of the class. profs always say only bring your own outline but esp for 2Ls/3Ls I always see previous year's outlines from the public drives. hell, I've seen people on TLS advise and encourage each other to find outlines all the time from different non-self generated sources



Is that cheating? I always took that to mean no commercial outlines. And I usually changed some stuff, making my outline based on a previous outline.

How is a commercial outline any different than an outline from the outline bank you didn't contribute to?

Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:47 pm
by B.B. Homemaker
The people who wrote them know what they're talking about, for one.

Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:00 pm
by MCFC
I think about 1/3 of my professors have been "bring whatever"

Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:11 pm
by ScottRiqui
AReasonableMan wrote:
sublime wrote:Is that cheating? I always took that to mean no commercial outlines. And I usually changed some stuff, making my outline based on a previous outline.

How is a commercial outline any different than an outline from the outline bank you didn't contribute to?


At least one of my professors has banned commercial outlines "for the students' own good." Supposedly one year he used a hypothetical on the exam that was very similar to a case that hadn't been discussed in class or in the casebook, but appeared in one of the popular commercial outlines. The students using that particular outline didn't notice the subtle differences between the real-life case and the hypo on the exam, and suffered for it.

I don't think that's necessarily a *good* reason to ban them, but it's one I've heard.

Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:12 pm
by sublime
..

Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:10 pm
by AReasonableMan
sublime wrote:
AReasonableMan wrote:How is a commercial outline any different than an outline from the outline bank you didn't contribute to?



No idea but my standards have usually been:

Completely open - bring anything you want

No commercial outlines or supplements

Completely closed.

They say commercial, who am I to argue?

It's prob easier to enforce. You can't know from a glance where it's the one from the outline bank or one inspired by the outline bank.

Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:04 pm
by Black Face Law
Avian wrote:You absolutely need to report it. Be specific about what you saw. If you don't tell anyone (and I don't think the proctors will necessarily report if they think they solved the problem) then you're potentially allowing two people to hurt the grades of everyone in the class.


Wow.. I bet you're fun to hang out with at a party

Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:23 pm
by encore1101
GOATlawman wrote:

you guys must be popular



Like I give a shit.

Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:30 pm
by encore1101
B.B. Homemaker wrote:I can't tell which side is actually the holier in this debate.

(fwiw, I didn't say anything about a bro playing very fast and loose with the rules during my exam yesterday. He's a shithead, but also probably one with so little confidence in his ability to do well given a level playing field that he's willing to risk it. Either he'll get caught one day or continue being dumb until he can't hide it anymore, either of which I'm okay with.)


My problem with this "let karma sort it out" mentality is that, okay, let's assume for the moment that its true that cheaters will get what they deserve one day. Either they'll be found out or they'll fail the bar or something. That's fine, but it doesn't help the guy who's grade got bumped down from a A- to a B+ because of the cheater, or from a B to a B-. Maybe that GPA loss was crucial in maintaining his scholarship at 100%, or getting an interview for a job as a 1L.

How does "well the cheater will be found out eventually" help this guy? I'm not being snide, this is an honest question.

Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:33 pm
by fats provolone
Black Face Law wrote:
Avian wrote:You absolutely need to report it. Be specific about what you saw. If you don't tell anyone (and I don't think the proctors will necessarily report if they think they solved the problem) then you're potentially allowing two people to hurt the grades of everyone in the class.


Wow.. I bet you're fun to hang out with at a party

pls tell us about your parties, Black Face Law

Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:40 pm
by sublime
..

Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:20 pm
by AReasonableMan
sublime wrote:
encore1101 wrote:
B.B. Homemaker wrote:I can't tell which side is actually the holier in this debate.

(fwiw, I didn't say anything about a bro playing very fast and loose with the rules during my exam yesterday. He's a shithead, but also probably one with so little confidence in his ability to do well given a level playing field that he's willing to risk it. Either he'll get caught one day or continue being dumb until he can't hide it anymore, either of which I'm okay with.)


My problem with this "let karma sort it out" mentality is that, okay, let's assume for the moment that its true that cheaters will get what they deserve one day. Either they'll be found out or they'll fail the bar or something. That's fine, but it doesn't help the guy who's grade got bumped down from a A- to a B+ because of the cheater, or from a B to a B-. Maybe that GPA loss was crucial in maintaining his scholarship at 100%, or getting an interview for a job as a 1L.

How does "well the cheater will be found out eventually" help this guy? I'm not being snide, this is an honest question.



As has been mentioned several times it is extremely unlikely that what any one person does will actually affect another

And cheating takes time. I'd imagine it's mostly impacting someone around median. Presumably if you know a closed book test by heart, somebody cheating with comparable exam ability is very unlikely to beat you. You have too large of a time advantage. There might be a more remote impact (memorizing is more work and may burn you out).

Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:43 pm
by 03152016
sublime wrote:
encore1101 wrote:
B.B. Homemaker wrote:I can't tell which side is actually the holier in this debate.

(fwiw, I didn't say anything about a bro playing very fast and loose with the rules during my exam yesterday. He's a shithead, but also probably one with so little confidence in his ability to do well given a level playing field that he's willing to risk it. Either he'll get caught one day or continue being dumb until he can't hide it anymore, either of which I'm okay with.)


My problem with this "let karma sort it out" mentality is that, okay, let's assume for the moment that its true that cheaters will get what they deserve one day. Either they'll be found out or they'll fail the bar or something. That's fine, but it doesn't help the guy who's grade got bumped down from a A- to a B+ because of the cheater, or from a B to a B-. Maybe that GPA loss was crucial in maintaining his scholarship at 100%, or getting an interview for a job as a 1L.

How does "well the cheater will be found out eventually" help this guy? I'm not being snide, this is an honest question.



As has been mentioned several times it is extremely unlikely that what any one person does will actually affect another

there are only so many As a prof can hand out

Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:46 pm
by bjsesq
MarkfromWI wrote:
GOATlawman wrote:To the people being all "Snitch or else!!" have you always been like that? Like even in high school where 95%+ of everyone cheats? Or did you develop that character trait at some point (during law school?


It's not about snitching, it's about doing the right thing and having integrity. There is a difference between right and wrong and actions do (or at least should) have consequences. Plus, I'm not in the situation but if people in my class were cheating I see that as them trying to take food out of my mouth, which does make it my business.

Tso. Fucking. Brave.

Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:51 pm
by fats provolone
is that a merkin parody alt?

Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:11 pm
by NotMyRealName09
Brut wrote:
sublime wrote:
encore1101 wrote:
B.B. Homemaker wrote:I can't tell which side is actually the holier in this debate.

(fwiw, I didn't say anything about a bro playing very fast and loose with the rules during my exam yesterday. He's a shithead, but also probably one with so little confidence in his ability to do well given a level playing field that he's willing to risk it. Either he'll get caught one day or continue being dumb until he can't hide it anymore, either of which I'm okay with.)


My problem with this "let karma sort it out" mentality is that, okay, let's assume for the moment that its true that cheaters will get what they deserve one day. Either they'll be found out or they'll fail the bar or something. That's fine, but it doesn't help the guy who's grade got bumped down from a A- to a B+ because of the cheater, or from a B to a B-. Maybe that GPA loss was crucial in maintaining his scholarship at 100%, or getting an interview for a job as a 1L.

How does "well the cheater will be found out eventually" help this guy? I'm not being snide, this is an honest question.



As has been mentioned several times it is extremely unlikely that what any one person does will actually affect another

there are only so many As a prof can hand out

Yeah, I didn't study with peers specifically so that there was no chance I'd somehow improve their odds of outdoing me. Well also because study groups are a massive waste of time.

One cheater going up from a B+ to an A- necessarily knocked someone else down.

We've all been dancing around it, but pulling a good ol' Tanya Harding might be an option here.

Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:12 pm
by fats provolone
haha you showed them!

Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:13 pm
by NotMyRealName09
fats provolone wrote:haha you showed them!


Fuck them :)

Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:16 pm
by sublime
..

Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:29 pm
by Kratos
NotMyRealName09 wrote:Yeah, I didn't study with peers specifically so that there was no chance I'd somehow improve their odds of outdoing me.

I pray this was a joke

Re: Report exam cheating to professor?

Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:56 pm
by NotMyRealName09
Kratos wrote:
NotMyRealName09 wrote:Yeah, I didn't study with peers specifically so that there was no chance I'd somehow improve their odds of outdoing me.

I pray this was a joke


Yeah, the real reason is I just was not a study group person / social learner. Not helping peers do better than me was more of a tangential benefit I realized after-the-fact. I didn't invent the curve, I just killed it.