Is Civ Pro essentially a race to a word count?

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Stylistics
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Re: Is Civ Pro essentially a race to a word count?

Postby Stylistics » Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:39 am

So it's not out of the ordinary for a prof to prefer [covering 20 issues more indepth] to thinly covering 30?

I think my prof said in passing that how he goes about things is that he wants to give you points, so if he sees "something" he goes Point!

But I don't know whether that "something" is "2 points per FRCP mentioned," or "5 points for an in-depth analysis vs 2 for thin analysis"

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Is Civ Pro essentially a race to a word count?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:50 am

Stylistics wrote:So it's not out of the ordinary for a prof to prefer [covering 20 issues more indepth] to thinly covering 30?

Profs would prefer a sufficiently-in-depth discussion of each of the 30 issues they planted in the fact pattern. Beyond that, some will probably prefer depth and others breadth.

I think you're overthinking this.

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BVest
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Re: Is Civ Pro essentially a race to a word count?

Postby BVest » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:05 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:you're overthinking this.


This.

When the prof says he wants to give you points for spotting issues, the issues actually have to be there in some actual way. And further, he's not saying he'll give points for talking about SMJ, joinder, class action, Erie, etc., on a question about whether or not there's personal jurisdiction. He's saying he'll give points for spotting issues that are relevant to the facts presented and the topic of personal jurisdiction. At the outside, he's saying that if the fact pattern also raises serious concerns besides PJ, you'll also get a point for mentioning that (e.g. "The facts as presented also appear to create a venue problem for the plaintiff, which is outside the scope of this analysis.

Dammit, I got sucked back in.

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sublime
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Re: Is Civ Pro essentially a race to a word count?

Postby sublime » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:07 am

..

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Desert Fox
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Re: Is Civ Pro essentially a race to a word count?

Postby Desert Fox » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:14 am

I sincerely doubt a prof will ever penalize for making a correct statement of law and a correct analysis and correct conclusion that isn't not at issue.

Like others have said, you are however wasting time for something that might get you 0/0 points. Or even if the prof gives you 3/3 points, you might have done a section that got you 10/10, which means you lose 7 points.

I'd address every issue that supported by any facts, even if its missing a key element. For example, if there are facts about emails being sent to accept a contract that is withdrawn before the email is read. Write about the mailbox rule and analysize. IT won't apply because its not post office mail or something, but you should analyize anyway.

Or if you have an assault like fact pattern but the victim didn't see the person swing at him. Analize for assault anyway.

But don't try to shoe horn in self defense when zero facts support it.

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Actus Reus
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Re: Is Civ Pro essentially a race to a word count?

Postby Actus Reus » Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:02 am

Given the number of threads you have started, you are obligated to tell us your grade.

AReasonableMan
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Re: Is Civ Pro essentially a race to a word count?

Postby AReasonableMan » Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:31 am

Desert Fox wrote:word count doesn't matter but the amount of content does. You probably should write like hemmingway on an exam. Don't spend time rewritting stuff or deleting.

This can be overrated. Presentation counts. Even if a professor tries to be objective, I'm sure most don't surgically analyze every sentence. You shouldn't be doing drafts, but it will help to map out your paragraph in your head before writing it. The person who writes the most almost always gets at least median, but this might be due to both knowing a lot and the overlap between confidence and writing quickly.

Stylistics
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Re: Is Civ Pro essentially a race to a word count?

Postby Stylistics » Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:50 am

The facts provided some reason to argue whether a party should be R19/20 joined and a potential discovery request that might irrelevant/privileged.

But there's no way either of those 2 is weighted equally with SMJ, PJ, etc, unless he wanted us to literally redo SMJ and PJ for every joined party and claim which would be duplicative.

I'm just worried that say an issue I applied indepth is only worth 10 points, and I got the full 10 at factor 2 but went all the way to distinguish factor 5 from some other case, so like you said I wasted time I could've spent netting 3/3 on whether discovery was relevant/privileged.

I figure in an open book exam, the only difference in an exam year to year are the facts. It's not like Rule 12b 1, 2, 3 etc have changed all that much. If an indepth analysis of -this year's- facts is a waste of time, why don't I just rewrite last year's top exam verbatim. Last year's exam said "these things about these cases. These cases are still good law, haven't changed since last year." "Last year's exam also said this about discovery, and discovery is implicated here too."

If application to the facts earns no points, then all I have to do is find last year's exam that talks about the most cases, add ones it didn't mention, and copy it verbatim.
Desert Fox wrote:I sincerely doubt a prof will ever penalize for making a correct statement of law and a correct analysis and correct conclusion that isn't not at issue.

Like others have said, you are however wasting time for something that might get you 0/0 points. Or even if the prof gives you 3/3 points, you might have done a section that got you 10/10, which means you lose 7 points.

I'd address every issue that supported by any facts, even if its missing a key element. For example, if there are facts about emails being sent to accept a contract that is withdrawn before the email is read. Write about the mailbox rule and analysize. IT won't apply because its not post office mail or something, but you should analyize anyway.

Or if you have an assault like fact pattern but the victim didn't see the person swing at him. Analize for assault anyway.

But don't try to shoe horn in self defense when zero facts support it.

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Desert Fox
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Re: Is Civ Pro essentially a race to a word count?

Postby Desert Fox » Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:39 am

This is for an exam you already took? Oh man, you gotta start studing for the next.

Stylistics
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Re: Is Civ Pro essentially a race to a word count?

Postby Stylistics » Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:09 am

The questions I'm asking are relevant to my exams (torts crim etc) to come. Otherwise yes I'd be wasting my time asking which approach is better.

Desert Fox wrote:This is for an exam you already took? Oh man, you gotta start studing for the next.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Is Civ Pro essentially a race to a word count?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:44 am

When did anyone say that application of law to facts wasn't worth any points? The exam is all application of law to the facts. If you regurgitated a previous year's top exam it wouldn't apply to your present exam because the facts would be different. You can't just spit out some kind of treatise on the rules in the abstract - it's got to be the rules as applied to the fact pattern before you.

I'm honestly kind of confused as to what you're saying in this thread.

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pancakes3
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Re: Is Civ Pro essentially a race to a word count?

Postby pancakes3 » Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:50 am

Bro, you are doing this completely wrong. Take the professor, not the class. It's on to the next one.

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AVBucks4239
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Re: Is Civ Pro essentially a race to a word count?

Postby AVBucks4239 » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:00 am

Hate to be harsh, but...

This thread is just an internal reflection for OP in which he is slowly realizing that he doesn't know how to take a law exam. He's getting more and more neurotic because he's only figuring that out after making a ton of goofball mistakes on his first semester exams.

OP: people on TLS don't slack 1L; they do it 2L and 3L when they've learned how they best learn the material and know how to take a law school exam. You played that card one year too early. So based on your complete lack of preparation and your inability to prepare a strategy to take law school exams, you're likely going to get median-pwned this semester. That's okay. Get your mind ready for that. If you do better than that, great. But I doubt it.

If you still have more exams, forget about CivPro and move on. Develop a plan to take the exam. Be confident.

And make sure you learn from this. You were unprepared and you know it. Change how you approach law school and kill it next semester. In the meantime, go drink a beer, and stop making threads on TLS.

Cheers.

NotMyRealName09
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Re: Is Civ Pro essentially a race to a word count?

Postby NotMyRealName09 » Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:17 pm

Order the book 8 Secrets to Top Law School Exam Performance by Prof. Whitebread. Overnight it, Saturday delivery. I'm serious. I didn't know of it until like 3 days before my first exams. Its like 100 short pages, you can read in under an hour, and it is THE WAY to take exams.

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BVest
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Re: Is Civ Pro essentially a race to a word count?

Postby BVest » Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:37 pm

NotMyRealName09 wrote:Order the book 8 Secrets to Top Law School Exam Performance by Prof. Whitebread. Overnight it, Saturday delivery.


Or just check your Law library.

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Icculus
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Re: Is Civ Pro essentially a race to a word count?

Postby Icculus » Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:48 pm

After reading your post about how little you did the semester I was basically done with you, but you pulled me back in. You are now in the middle of exams and asking how to take a law school exam. Brilliant timing.

1. Look at profs old exams and answers if they are available at your school. If not;
2. Go back in time and talk to your prof about this stuff.
3. As you have been repeatedly told, but fail to understand, other than catering your answer to your profs personality/requests (this you would have learned by going to class, my Contracts exam was written completely different from property, and torts, and civ pro b/c profs want different things) the key thing is to issue spot. Outside of Civ Pro very rarely do you absolutely need a case name, you need the rule, and it sometimes helps to have a case but basically this is how an answer should go.

Issue
Rule
Application
Conclusion
Repeat

While I hate references to IRAC it usually works for points.

4. Spot as many issues as possible, when necessary create distinctions from cases/rules, explain both sides and then say where this issue comes out.

5. This is all stuff you should have been trying to figure out before. Maybe you shouldn't have such an arrogant attitude towards your classmates/dismissive attitude to your classes as demonstrated in previous posts.

Edit: YOU ARE WAY OVER THINKING THIS.

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fats provolone
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Re: Is Civ Pro essentially a race to a word count?

Postby fats provolone » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:13 pm

i think this thread may say more about the ppl posting in it than the OP

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Is Civ Pro essentially a race to a word count?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:22 pm

I mean, it's TLS, so I figured that goes without saying.

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Icculus
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Re: Is Civ Pro essentially a race to a word count?

Postby Icculus » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:24 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I mean, it's TLS, so I figured that goes without saying.


Boredom while waiting for an assignment back leads to too much TLSing. Also, it's easier to berate OP than any of my current superiors. Think of TLS as stress relief.

AReasonableMan
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Re: Is Civ Pro essentially a race to a word count?

Postby AReasonableMan » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:28 pm

fats provolone wrote:i think this thread may say more about the ppl posting in it than the OP

Especially the idea that median is bad. IDK where OP goes to school but at most respectable schools median isn't a guaranteed outcome for smart people and the difference isn't that pronounced. If you don't know how to take a test you won't get median, and that comment came on very strong. It isn't bad for him to wonder about how grading works afterwords. There's no one psychological approach that works for people. Your personality is how you individually process shit.

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FKASunny
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Re: Is Civ Pro essentially a race to a word count?

Postby FKASunny » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:44 pm

LOL at the idea of this fucking thread. civ pro isn't more or less of a horse race than any other exam. Everything is professor dependent and you know it, you over-sharing 1L rube.

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fats provolone
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Re: Is Civ Pro essentially a race to a word count?

Postby fats provolone » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:50 pm

twist: OP is the prof and is trying to figure out how to grade exams

AReasonableMan
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Re: Is Civ Pro essentially a race to a word count?

Postby AReasonableMan » Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:01 pm

On the issue of in depth 20 vs. thin 30, depends on the grading style. Generally, if they're the right 20, that choice is much better than 30 different things. If you are able to recognize the more important issues and speak intelligently about them, it's easier to imply you could've discussed the remaining 10 if you had more time. Part of being a good lawyer is telling the client what the relevant law is and how it relates to their story so they can make an informed decision. They're prob not gonna give a fuck about what would happen if they lived in Texas, that they would've won in 1820 or other BS non-existent issues students make up out of thin air.

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Desert Fox
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Re: Is Civ Pro essentially a race to a word count?

Postby Desert Fox » Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:09 pm

fats provolone wrote:twist: OP is the prof and is trying to figure out how to grade exams


Dood don't out rentOn

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Stringer6
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Re: Is Civ Pro essentially a race to a word count?

Postby Stringer6 » Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:14 pm

Kratos wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:If you are going to the TOC and that sort of shit, you'll get your shit pushed in on exams.

This really isn't true


i used my outline for every single question on every single exam and did really well 1L. memorized next to nothing but knew where to find stuff in outline.




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