1L considering dropping out..

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AReasonableMan
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Re: 1L considering dropping out..

Postby AReasonableMan » Thu Nov 27, 2014 3:45 pm

MarkfromWI wrote:Plain and simple, if you don't want to be a lawyer drop out. Say you do stick it out and somehow manage to kill it during finals, what then? Stick around for another 2.5 years just to get a job you don't like? Doesn't make any sense to me. If you're sure you don't want to be a lawyer, consider the semester's tuition the cost of learning more about what you do and don't want out of a career. $10k UG debt plus whatever you've spent for the first semester isn't a bad place to be.

But OP didn't say that. OP only said they realize the odds of getting a good job are very low. Not wanting to be six-figures in debt for thirty grand doesn't mean they don't want to be a lawyer. You can love something but love your family a lot more. Most rational people will abandon something if it isn't putting meat on the table. Let's say OP's odds are ten percent at getting a good job. By not studying, they become closer to zero percent. He's forfeiting something of tangible value: the ten percent chance, for no good reason.

If you bet Calvin Johnson you could cover him, that would be a stupid bet. But pretend you already put down the money, and now you admit it's a stupid bet. Assuming you won't get injured, how could you justify not at least trying your best to cover him? You're conceding defeat after you put the money down? It's asinine.

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ManoftheHour
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Re: 1L considering dropping out..

Postby ManoftheHour » Thu Nov 27, 2014 3:58 pm

lol, this guy at my school just posted on Facebook that he dropped out to pursue his dream.

Good for him.

AReasonableMan
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Re: 1L considering dropping out..

Postby AReasonableMan » Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:03 pm

My point is only that desiring to have at least a middle class job and desiring to practice law aren't mutually exclusive. Many TTT deans parrot the law is a noble profession, and you have to love it to so much that you would do it free. This is a scam. They're operating on the confirmation bias of the students who after learning they are fucked, rationalize that they don't care if they're poor because they're passionate about the law. Meanwhile, after delivering his speech on nobility, the dean drives off in a hundred thousand dollar convertible.

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Ron Don Volante
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Re: 1L considering dropping out..

Postby Ron Don Volante » Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:05 pm

ManoftheHour wrote:lol, this guy at my school just posted on Facebook that he dropped out to pursue his dream.

Good for him.

tee hee. Was it like an obvious "replacement dream" or was it sincere?

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ManoftheHour
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Re: 1L considering dropping out..

Postby ManoftheHour » Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:07 pm

AReasonableMan wrote:If you bet Calvin Johnson you could cover him, that would be a stupid bet. But pretend you already put down the money, and now you admit it's a stupid bet. Assuming you won't get injured, how could you justify not at least trying your best to cover him? You're conceding defeat after you put the money down? It's asinine.

This. OP is already throwing away money for this semester.

For all he knows, Calvin Johnson might get his cleats stuck in the turf, trip, and tear his ACL.

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ManoftheHour
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Re: 1L considering dropping out..

Postby ManoftheHour » Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:07 pm

Ron Don Volante wrote:
ManoftheHour wrote:lol, this guy at my school just posted on Facebook that he dropped out to pursue his dream.

Good for him.

tee hee. Was it like an obvious "replacement dream" or was it sincere?

Actually, it's legit. He said he stopped attending classes for the last month and he found a job related to his interest. This interest is genuine, cuz that's like all he posts about on FB.

shouldacouldawoulda
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Re: 1L considering dropping out..

Postby shouldacouldawoulda » Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:31 pm

AReasonableMan wrote:
MarkfromWI wrote:Plain and simple, if you don't want to be a lawyer drop out. Say you do stick it out and somehow manage to kill it during finals, what then? Stick around for another 2.5 years just to get a job you don't like? Doesn't make any sense to me. If you're sure you don't want to be a lawyer, consider the semester's tuition the cost of learning more about what you do and don't want out of a career. $10k UG debt plus whatever you've spent for the first semester isn't a bad place to be.

But OP didn't say that. OP only said they realize the odds of getting a good job are very low. Not wanting to be six-figures in debt for thirty grand doesn't mean they don't want to be a lawyer. You can love something but love your family a lot more. Most rational people will abandon something if it isn't putting meat on the table. Let's say OP's odds are ten percent at getting a good job. By not studying, they become closer to zero percent. He's forfeiting something of tangible value: the ten percent chance, for no good reason.

If you bet Calvin Johnson you could cover him, that would be a stupid bet. But pretend you already put down the money, and now you admit it's a stupid bet. Assuming you won't get injured, how could you justify not at least trying your best to cover him? You're conceding defeat after you put the money down? It's asinine.


To be precise, I said I would only want to practice law IF it were for a large salary.. I could give two shits about being a peoples advocate or some garbage like that.

I know a lot of people here like to boil this down to a hard worker problem. That's really not the case. I've held jobs consistently from age 15 until I started law school. Getting my feet wet in law just made me realize that I would rather focus my hard work advancing a career in business rather than law. Pretty simple.

That being said, the Calvin Johnson analogy is a good one. I don't have anything else to do before finals besides applying for other jobs so I guess I could just go all out on the exams, if for no other reason than to say I tried.

mvp99
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Re: 1L considering dropping out..

Postby mvp99 » Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:41 pm

scrowell wrote:I went to a tt/ttt, i have passed the bar, i have a good job. you can make it work if you really want it.


No, just no. Stop spreading this fallacy.

It's also incredibly insulting to people who struck out/never found a job.

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JohannDeMann
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Re: 1L considering dropping out..

Postby JohannDeMann » Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:51 pm

if you want to be a lawyer id stick it out. if you dont, keep applying for jobs but take your finals to keep that loan funding open. i wouldnt officially drop out until you have a job - so you have loan money to live on you know.

AReasonableMan
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Re: 1L considering dropping out..

Postby AReasonableMan » Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:05 pm

shouldacouldawoulda wrote:
AReasonableMan wrote:
MarkfromWI wrote:Plain and simple, if you don't want to be a lawyer drop out. Say you do stick it out and somehow manage to kill it during finals, what then? Stick around for another 2.5 years just to get a job you don't like? Doesn't make any sense to me. If you're sure you don't want to be a lawyer, consider the semester's tuition the cost of learning more about what you do and don't want out of a career. $10k UG debt plus whatever you've spent for the first semester isn't a bad place to be.

But OP didn't say that. OP only said they realize the odds of getting a good job are very low. Not wanting to be six-figures in debt for thirty grand doesn't mean they don't want to be a lawyer. You can love something but love your family a lot more. Most rational people will abandon something if it isn't putting meat on the table. Let's say OP's odds are ten percent at getting a good job. By not studying, they become closer to zero percent. He's forfeiting something of tangible value: the ten percent chance, for no good reason.

If you bet Calvin Johnson you could cover him, that would be a stupid bet. But pretend you already put down the money, and now you admit it's a stupid bet. Assuming you won't get injured, how could you justify not at least trying your best to cover him? You're conceding defeat after you put the money down? It's asinine.


To be precise, I said I would only want to practice law IF it were for a large salary.. I could give two shits about being a peoples advocate or some garbage like that.

I know a lot of people here like to boil this down to a hard worker problem. That's really not the case. I've held jobs consistently from age 15 until I started law school. Getting my feet wet in law just made me realize that I would rather focus my hard work advancing a career in business rather than law. Pretty simple.

That being said, the Calvin Johnson analogy is a good one. I don't have anything else to do before finals besides applying for other jobs so I guess I could just go all out on the exams, if for no other reason than to say I tried.

I'm the same way. I get emotionally moved when others are treated unfairly or get screwed by the system. That's why I was attracted to law, but dogs get moved when other dogs are bullied or treated unfairly. It doesn't mean the dog won't want to eat first. There is pro bono. Helping people and helping yourself aren't mutually exclusive.

GOATlawman
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Re: 1L considering dropping out..

Postby GOATlawman » Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:22 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:if you want to be a lawyer id stick it out. if you dont, keep applying for jobs but take your finals to keep that loan funding open. i wouldnt officially drop out until you have a job - so you have loan money to live on you know.


Actually, this. In the present economy, I would AT LEAST take out next semester's Stafford loans, and possibly the Grad Plus too.

It's pretty much free money you can use to jump start your next career, even if you never go to a single class.
Just put all of your effort into your next endeavor imo

jepper
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Re: 1L considering dropping out..

Postby jepper » Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:50 pm

GOATlawman wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:if you want to be a lawyer id stick it out. if you dont, keep applying for jobs but take your finals to keep that loan funding open. i wouldnt officially drop out until you have a job - so you have loan money to live on you know.


Actually, this. In the present economy, I would AT LEAST take out next semester's Stafford loans, and possibly the Grad Plus too.

It's pretty much free money you can use to jump start your next career, even if you never go to a single class.
Just put all of your effort into your next endeavor imo



Except it's not free bc you have to pay it back.. Like, what?? You'd be better off delivering pizzas than listening to this.

AReasonableMan
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Re: 1L considering dropping out..

Postby AReasonableMan » Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:05 pm

Yeah, I can agree with using loan money till you land on your feet. 20k to a broke 22 yr old is probably with more than 30k to a 30 yr old professional. However, the tuition is a pure waste.

sparty99
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Re: 1L considering dropping out..

Postby sparty99 » Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:17 pm

No one gives a f*ck what you do. It is your life. If you want to quit, then quit damnit. We don't care.

GOATlawman
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Re: 1L considering dropping out..

Postby GOATlawman » Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:35 pm

jepper wrote:
GOATlawman wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:if you want to be a lawyer id stick it out. if you dont, keep applying for jobs but take your finals to keep that loan funding open. i wouldnt officially drop out until you have a job - so you have loan money to live on you know.


Actually, this. In the present economy, I would AT LEAST take out next semester's Stafford loans, and possibly the Grad Plus too.

It's pretty much free money you can use to jump start your next career, even if you never go to a single class.
Just put all of your effort into your next endeavor imo



Except it's not free bc you have to pay it back.. Like, what?? You'd be better off delivering pizzas than listening to this.


quit being a dumb, bro.

Stafford is $20,500 @ 6.21% interest 1% origination
that's basically a gift in the current economy
plus govt forbearance, paye, etc makes it a joke in terms of risk
plus the interest is an above the line deduction when you pay it off

plus loan at 7.21% is more open for debate

jepper
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Re: 1L considering dropping out..

Postby jepper » Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:42 pm

Are you forgetting the fact that whoever does this would be borrowing money to pay tuition for a degree they would not be getting? Kinda like getting a car loan for a car you would never drive? A lesser, but still ridiculously bad idea, is that you would borrow money with an attached interest rate to live so you don't have to work. I don't know what world you live in but this just seems absurd to me.

GOATlawman
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Re: 1L considering dropping out..

Postby GOATlawman » Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:51 pm

jepper wrote:Are you forgetting the fact that whoever does this would be borrowing money to pay tuition for a degree they would not be getting? Kinda like getting a car loan for a car you would never drive? A lesser, but still ridiculously bad idea, is that you would borrow money with an attached interest rate to live so you don't have to work. I don't know what world you live in but this just seems absurd to me.


A loan that covers your COL means you can invest that same amount in the world which has been returning much more than 6% since 2008

also, beats being homeless while you're trying to find that next job

jepper
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Re: 1L considering dropping out..

Postby jepper » Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:03 pm

Last thing and then I'm done.. Pretty sure there is enough time in the day for someone to work at any random job, make enough money not to be homeless and figure out what they want to do with their life. Just a thought to think about, in a survey 80% of the Forbes 400 said the most important part of getting rich and building wealth was getting out of debt and staying out. While I see the need to maybe go into debt for certain things (i.e. Law school) doing it so your life might be a little easier, and not to mention borrowing for tuition that will never be towards a degree... lol.

BigZuck
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Re: 1L considering dropping out..

Postby BigZuck » Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:19 pm

Most of, if not all, of that 20k would go to tuition.

GOAT- stop being dumb

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haus
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Re: 1L considering dropping out..

Postby haus » Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:47 pm

jepper wrote:Last thing and then I'm done.. Pretty sure there is enough time in the day for someone to work at any random job, make enough money not to be homeless and figure out what they want to do with their life. Just a thought to think about, in a survey 80% of the Forbes 400 said the most important part of getting rich and building wealth was getting out of debt and staying out. While I see the need to maybe go into debt for certain things (i.e. Law school) doing it so your life might be a little easier, and not to mention borrowing for tuition that will never be towards a degree... lol.

lol @ Forbes 400 poll.

I am sure that being paid an obscene amount of money, often as stock to avoid paying as much taxes on it, has nothing to do with them being wealthy compared to paying off a loan a few months earlier.

jepper
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Re: 1L considering dropping out..

Postby jepper » Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:58 pm

The point was towards taking on debt for idiotic reasons. Don't see the relevance at their stock sell offs to avoid paying taxes. Pretty sure if anyone knows how to handle money it is the people who have it.

GOATlawman
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Re: 1L considering dropping out..

Postby GOATlawman » Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:21 pm

BigZuck wrote:Most of, if not all, of that 20k would go to tuition.

GOAT- stop being dumb


You can allocate your payments and loans between tuition and cash however you want, even if it's now how it automatically shows up your bill

And I'm pretty sure most schools give you a full refund within X weeks

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haus
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Re: 1L considering dropping out..

Postby haus » Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:21 pm

GOATlawman wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Most of, if not all, of that 20k would go to tuition.

GOAT- stop being dumb


You can allocate your payments and loans between tuition and cash however you want, even if it's now how it automatically shows up your bill

And I'm pretty sure most schools give you a full refund within X weeks

I suspect that you may be in violation of your loan terms if you take the money for a term which you do not remain enrolled in school.

Saurus
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Re: 1L considering dropping out..

Postby Saurus » Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:24 pm

I dropped out of law school a few years ago (lower ranked T1) and I did exactly what you are contemplating (I dropped out of law school towards the end of my first year, right before finals). I haven't even been on this forum since 2011, but once I saw this post, I felt I had to say something.

Like you, I had the realization of "wanting to quit" about halfway through the second semester. In hindsight, I should have quit as soon as that realization occurred, but oh well. As you said, hindsight is 20/20. Whether or not you take your finals seems a bit irrelevant; it sounds like law is not of great interest to you, so there is no point pursuing it further when considering the expense and poor job prospects (unless you have a killer class rank now...in which case I would say go for it). Of course, as previously mentioned, there might be a good strategy in taking finals just to continue the loans if you will need to support yourself...but in either case, I don't think you should finish law school.

Also, like you (our stories are eerily similar), I graduated from a solid undergrad with a business degree. However, once I quit law school, I found that the job search was extremely difficult. I think this was largely due to the fact that I was basically "starting from scratch." I did not have true access to a career center, on campus recruiting, etc.

As a result, I went back to school (yup, more debt) in something with more solid job prospects. I am currently pursuing my post-bac in Petroleum Engineering at a state school, and I have to say it's one of the best decisions I have ever made. I've had 3 internships (including major E&P and service companies) not including the one lined up for this summer, and they have all paid at least $30/hr. I know, that's not as much as being a summer associate somewhere, but there was no way in hell I was going to get that with my law grades.

I will have close to 80,000 in debt when I graduate school, but I will have a job that pays 80,000 annually (the company I am working for this summer said they will hire me upon graduation). Not exactly a "lavish lifestyle, but it's not terrible by any means.

So, here is my advice. Quit law school, and get a post-bac in Mechanical Engineering or Chemical Engineering (maybe not Petroleum Engineering, due to the current state of the oil and gas job market). You may not be passionate about it, but dude, that's totally ok. Many successful people got their first jobs not because they were passionate, but because they needed money. No shame in that game.

The engineering curriculum is challenging, but it's so much easier to face that successfully when you know you'll have better job options. Graduating from undergrad with a technical major and a good GPA will provide you with multiple career opportunities, whether that is consulting, finance, or even oil and gas (if/when the market turns around). It will also provide you with more debt...but in my humble opinion, that's worth it.

I know this is very specific advice, but I truly believe it is a great path for someone who is not quite sure where they want to go in life (as I was).

sparty99
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Re: 1L considering dropping out..

Postby sparty99 » Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:23 am

Saurus wrote:I dropped out of law school a few years ago (lower ranked T1) and I did exactly what you are contemplating (I dropped out of law school towards the end of my first year, right before finals). I haven't even been on this forum since 2011, but once I saw this post, I felt I had to say something.

Like you, I had the realization of "wanting to quit" about halfway through the second semester. In hindsight, I should have quit as soon as that realization occurred, but oh well. As you said, hindsight is 20/20. Whether or not you take your finals seems a bit irrelevant; it sounds like law is not of great interest to you, so there is no point pursuing it further when considering the expense and poor job prospects (unless you have a killer class rank now...in which case I would say go for it). Of course, as previously mentioned, there might be a good strategy in taking finals just to continue the loans if you will need to support yourself...but in either case, I don't think you should finish law school.

Also, like you (our stories are eerily similar), I graduated from a solid undergrad with a business degree. However, once I quit law school, I found that the job search was extremely difficult. I think this was largely due to the fact that I was basically "starting from scratch." I did not have true access to a career center, on campus recruiting, etc.

As a result, I went back to school (yup, more debt) in something with more solid job prospects. I am currently pursuing my post-bac in Petroleum Engineering at a state school, and I have to say it's one of the best decisions I have ever made. I've had 3 internships (including major E&P and service companies) not including the one lined up for this summer, and they have all paid at least $30/hr. I know, that's not as much as being a summer associate somewhere, but there was no way in hell I was going to get that with my law grades.

I will have close to 80,000 in debt when I graduate school, but I will have a job that pays 80,000 annually (the company I am working for this summer said they will hire me upon graduation). Not exactly a "lavish lifestyle, but it's not terrible by any means.

So, here is my advice. Quit law school, and get a post-bac in Mechanical Engineering or Chemical Engineering (maybe not Petroleum Engineering, due to the current state of the oil and gas job market). You may not be passionate about it, but dude, that's totally ok. Many successful people got their first jobs not because they were passionate, but because they needed money. No shame in that game.

The engineering curriculum is challenging, but it's so much easier to face that successfully when you know you'll have better job options. Graduating from undergrad with a technical major and a good GPA will provide you with multiple career opportunities, whether that is consulting, finance, or even oil and gas (if/when the market turns around). It will also provide you with more debt...but in my humble opinion, that's worth it.

I know this is very specific advice, but I truly believe it is a great path for someone who is not quite sure where they want to go in life (as I was).


Um, no. If this dude doesn't even want to be a lawyer, how does he know he wants to be an engineer. He needs to work. Now. It's not that hard to get any entry level paying job whether it is working for Enterprise Rent-A-Car or being a car salesman. Dude needs to work. Not go back to school and get more debt.




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