3L with firm job. thinking of dropping out. Forum

[linairtes]

my friends think i'm crazy but I thought the always-cynical TLS might agree. I did not go to law school to make money for the sake of making money.

My story:
1. I turned down HYS for a substantial scholarship at a T10. If I drop out now i will have no debt. if i don't drop out I will have ~20K in debt.
2. Killed first semester, scored a 1L SA at a firm I loved.
3. Second semester I got the lowest grade in my contracts class, a C+. This is where things started going downhill.
4. 1L SA firm expressed no interest in me coming back, likely because of grades.
5. I struck out at 2L OCI.
6. Got 1 and only 1 offer through mass mailing, at a V100 in NYC.
7. I hated the firm and they hated me. but I put my head down and worked hard but it didn't help: they cold offered me by telling me to look elsewhere and that if I did come back I would be put in a department I didn't want.
8. I struck out at 3L OCI.
9. Went crawling back to 2L firm, and when I accepted they told me I would be in ERISA. I have no interest and have never expressed any interest in ERISA. My only experience is in corporate and thats the kind of work i would like to do.
10. on track to graduate with ~3.4, which is probably bottom 10% at my T10.

I have done my due diligence on ERISA and it sounds miserable. not only that, but most lawyers have said it will be almost impossible to lateral into a new firm for a different practice group wtih only ERISA experience. and there is no way my firm is going to let me switch practice groups. so its either ERISA for life or not being a lawyer.

As far as I see it, if I DON'T drop out there are 3 and only 3 options going forward:
1. my firm rescinds my offer before I start. end result: no job + 20K in debt.
2. my firm fires me within my first year. end result: no job + ~16K in debt.
3. my firm somehow does not fire me but i'm in ERISA for the rest of my legal career and miserable until find a new career. end result: job I hate + debt for about 4 years = 7 years of lost earnings in a potentially new career.

The people who say don't drop out say 'bro suck it up you're gonna be making 160K thats so sweet!'. but the money is not an issue. I'd rather graduate with no debt and get a quick start on a new career than gamble for a high salary doing something I hate.

Also: yes, i DO want to be a lawyer and I would love to do transactional work but that ship has sailed. its looking like ERISA or a different career.

[Rowinguy2009]

This is hard, but I'm inclined to tell you to stay. A JD from a top ten law school is a better end result than going to school for almost 2.5 years and coming out with nothing.

Care to explain why you will have no debt if you drop out now but will have 20k in debt if you graduate? If the 20k is from this year's living expenses, why didn't you have that much debt for previous years? Also, haven't you already taken out the money -- it's October?) What's your undergrad degree? What would you do if you dropped out?

Most firms that gave you an offer will keep you around for at least a few years (assuming you're not able to turn things around with them such that you stay longer). If you can make it work with them for two years, then with a T10 degree (albeit, bottom 10%) and biglaw you could probably transition into some kind of government or state clerkship or something if you play your cards right. That could allow you to hit the reset button and maybe transition into the job you want.

Could you keep job hunting during 3L and then blow the firm off if you find something better? Doesn't sound like you care about burning the bridge (although that is admittedly dangerous, because any potential employer could call the firm since it was your 2L firm and ask for a reference, thus outing your plan).

Like I said this is hard, it seems like you could work out something if you stay, but if you anticipate being miserable the next couple years to an extent that isn't worth it (it sounds like that's the case), then go ahead and pull the plug.

[fratstar1]

first off you should be able to pay off 20k in year, why would you only pay 4k of the 90ishk you take home? (maybe I'm reading what you posted incorectly)
have you tried mass mailing with your offer in hand?
you can probably lateral after a year if you end up really hating it.
what if this practice group sucks in theory but the people are actually really chill? you dont know till ya know.
Do you have something you would rather do? It sounds like you at least have the oppurtunity to make 160k next year.
I personally would finish it out and attempt to get the degree you've been working towards for years and deffinetly have the ability to pay off.

[FSK]

If you want to be a lawyer, stay. If you don't, leave.

[baal hadad]

Transactional ship has sailed

If u can learn to like Erisa it's actually sorta hot now

Get some dece exp and leave that firm

[jbagelboy]

3.4 is bottom 10%? how is that possible? Anyway, sorry for your troubles. Here are some of my thoughts, and this is coming from someone who is on the cynical scale of the law school game.

Honestly, 20K in debt with a market paying gig.. yea, I'd "suck it up" for at least two years. Or just work until you pay off the small amount of loans and then leave the firm for something else; at least you'll have your degree. Here's why.

First, as I'm sure you know, many people (including those who took sticker debt at 'higher ranked' schools) would love to be in your position. The fact you even have this choice is remarkable.

Second, I don't know much about that department, but it seems like you haven't even stopped to consider the alternative and your opportunity cost relative to investment: yes, dropping out saves you some cash, but you've invested way more than funds into this. You've invested 2+ years of your life and lost income. You only have 8 months to go. If you were a jobless 2L, I might think differently, but come on. Do you really think life will improve if you drop out? Do you have a high paying finance gig to fall back on? or technical/programming skills? I'm assuming your UG grades were pretty strong, but still the stigma against dropping out of a program so late in the game, leaving an inevitably blank resume aside from your 1L/2L SA's, will hurt you on the job market. Your full ride gives you an incredible position with relatively low risk to sticking it out.

I would try to improve your grades to at least third quartile by the time you graduate. Also, don't stop applying to firms. You got your first job via mass mail; you can get a second. Even a mid-market firm where you could do corporate working paying $90K would still be killer deal on $20K debt. Imagine if you had $250K in the hole and you wound up at the same firm with the same quandary?

Lastly, I know cold offers are a real shitter, but is it possible the new department won't hold this grudge against you? It's more likely (given reputational pressures, unless this is a Brown Rudnick-style firm) that when you arrive you'll be treated like any other associate than you'll be preemptively let go.

You have a lot of upside to completing your degree, and relatively little downside. Don't regret your choices, even if I fully relate to the impulse to shoot your Ks prof in the back of the head.

[kalvano]

Attorneys with ERISA experience should have a number of options for lateraling out to a different firm.

[indigomachine]

I'd also jump in on continuing to mass mail, checking symplicity -- especially if you're trying to change practice groups and especially to corporate.

It seems like there are a decent # of places still trying to fill corporate spots, and I know I've definitely seen fairly recent symplicity postings at my school for corporate/transactional positions. I made a similar jump this year this way with similar 1L grade issues -- it's definitely doable and 20k is nothing out of a T10 w/ biglaw in hand.

ETA: firms also seem pretty understanding of wanting to change practice groups (once you've landed an interview I mean) -- they'll probably ask why it didn't pan out to begin with, but it shouldn't be too difficult to put together a decent answer to this (e.g. not enough room / wanted someone with a specific corporate focus that you didn't have, etc.)

[linairtes]

Thanks for the responses.

Care to explain why you will have no debt if you drop out now but will have 20k in debt if you graduate? If the 20k is from this year's living expenses, why didn't you have that much debt for previous years? Also, haven't you already taken out the money -- it's October?) What's your undergrad degree? What would you do if you dropped out?

Had enough saved up for living expenses until now (two SAs helped). I don't need to borrow federal loans so I would be borrowing interpersonally at a discount interest rate, but haven't done so yet, hence this post.

Undergrad degree is useless. I have some ideas for if I dropped out, but it would be a total career pivot.

Attorneys with ERISA experience should have a number of options for lateraling out to a different firm.

A lot of people are saying 'get the experience and then lateral' but I have spoken to a lot of lawyers who said that my only lateral options would be into another ERISA practice group. Changing practice groups within a firm is hard enough, let alone trying to get a new firm trying to hire you for a practice you have no experience in. Also, I think my track record in 2L/3L OCI does not bode well for lateral opportunities.

I'd also jump in on continuing to mass mail, checking symplicity -- especially if you're trying to change practice groups and especially to corporate.

I have already accepted my offer. Looking for other jobs at this point is just asking them to rescind my offer. I went through quite a few interviews over the past few months and struck out so its not worth the risk to assume I'm going to get something finally. I'm either taking this job or dropping out.

ETA: firms also seem pretty understanding of wanting to change practice groups (once you've landed an interview I mean) -- they'll probably ask why it didn't pan out to begin with, but it shouldn't be too difficult to put together a decent answer to this (e.g. not enough room / wanted someone with a specific corporate focus that you didn't have, etc.)

This is the exact opposite of what many practicing lawyers have told me, and i'm inclined to believe them.

[linairtes]

first off you should be able to pay off 20k in year, why would you only pay 4k of the 90ishk you take home? (maybe I'm reading what you posted incorectly)
have you tried mass mailing with your offer in hand?
you can probably lateral after a year if you end up really hating it.
what if this practice group sucks in theory but the people are actually really chill? you dont know till ya know.
Do you have something you would rather do? It sounds like you at least have the oppurtunity to make 160k next year.
I personally would finish it out and attempt to get the degree you've been working towards for years and deffinetly have the ability to pay off.

You're probably right about the repayment, i'm being a little pessimistic about that. But the sooner they can me the less i'll have been able to pay off.

But as I said, if drop out now I won't even have to pay off anything. So all the 160K job does is put me back exactly where i am now, except with a law degree.

So the question is which is better: being solvent now w/o a law degree and getting an extra 2 years to start a new career, or being solvent in two years w/ a law degree and a year of experience in a field i don't want to be in. My feeling is this latter situation will make it even harder for me to restart my career.

[jbagelboy]

But as I said, if drop out now I won't even have to pay off anything. So all the 160K job does is put me back exactly where i am now, except with a law degree.

I completely disagree with this statement and the reasoning behind it. You are assuming you will be fired almost immediately after you start. I don't see how a six figure income with upward potential and a three year degree is equivalent to an unemployed dropout in any sense.

So the question is which is better: being solvent now w/o a law degree and getting an extra 2 years to start a new career, or being solvent in two years w/ a law degree and a year of experience in a field i don't want to be in.

This is such an extreme distortion of your current and future circumstances. You said you aren't even loaning from the government at high interest, which weighs even more heavily towards completing your degree.

[patogordo]

just get the degree and take the job.

a.) you might not hate it
b.) if you do, you have little debt and you're borrowing from your rich uncle so who gives a fuck. don't stress the job and focus on applying for other shit. they aren't gonna fire you in your first year.

based on your distortions of the facts though ("ill be insolvent for 2 years with 20k in friendly debt and a biglaw job!") i'm guessing you've already made up your mind

[sideroxylon]

yeah I really really don't see what you gain by quitting now instead of just trying the job for a bit

[Ohiobumpkin]

A lot of people are saying 'get the experience and then lateral' but I have spoken to a lot of lawyers who said that my only lateral options would be into another ERISA practice group. Changing practice groups within a firm is hard enough, let alone trying to get a new firm trying to hire you for a practice you have no experience in. Also, I think my track record in 2L/3L OCI does not bode well for lateral opportunities.

After getting market paying gig in NYC and paying off your 20K IN LOANS FOR T-10 DEGREE, couldn't you lateral to a small-mid sized law office where there will be more emphasis on working a variety of cases (as in, attorneys at this hypothetical firm are expected to handle a variety of matters instead of over-specializing). The Big Law--> Small/Mid Law lateraling does happen, and I imagine a lot of small and mid size firms would love hiring a NYC Big Law lawyer with a T-10 degree. Could use background as leverage to negotiate placement in corporate practice.

[indigomachine]

ETA: firms also seem pretty understanding of wanting to change practice groups (once you've landed an interview I mean) -- they'll probably ask why it didn't pan out to begin with, but it shouldn't be too difficult to put together a decent answer to this (e.g. not enough room / wanted someone with a specific corporate focus that you didn't have, etc.)

Sorry, just to clarify -- I meant before starting at a firm / during 3L recruiting, not after.

Yeah, forgot that you had already accepted. I know a few people that still made jumps after accepting their offers (up into spring of 3L), but yeah, it's at least risky and requires being more targeted / careful about how you go through the recruitment process (and will definitely burn bridges, to the extent that you care about that). Can understand not wanting to take that gamble.

Best of luck either way.

[linairtes]

Not trying to distort the facts, I just put a lot more emphasis on enjoying my career than money. I do appreciate the responses, but "you might not hate it" and "you should feel lucky" aren't really motivating.

I don't think its a distortion of facts to view my financial situation in favor of switching careers now. Yes there was the opportunity cost of 2.5 years, but i'm juggling the opportunity cost of 2 more.

The big dilemma i'm having is that I don't know how valuable the actual law degree will be if I know i'm going to try and do something else. A lot of the responses here acknowledge that I will be stuck doing ERISA and won't have a chance to practice in an area I want, without acknowledging that i do not want to be stuck doing ERISA for my career just because it pays well.

So the question isn't whether i should suck it up and do ERISA, the question is: if I know i want to and will eventually try to do something else, and knowing that the option of other kinds of legal work "has sailed", should I get the degree or not.

[sideroxylon]

my point is more that you're going to have a huge resume gap and you've done nothing to explain why now is the time to run

paying 20k for the ability to work somewhat comfortably, build up a GTFO nut and then look for a job sounds like a good deal to me

[FSK]

What else do you want to do? Like, what job out there would you kill to have?

Can starting in ERISA get you there?

[patogordo]

well you haven't exactly provided any alternatives, bud. are you rich? can you get a job easily in another field with connections that will limit the impact of dropping out without a degree? do you have other marketable skills?

if, like most law students, you're basically otherwise unemployable, then the responses ITT make a lot of sense.

[linairtes]

my point is more that you're going to have a huge resume gap and you've done nothing to explain why now is the time to run

paying 20k for the ability to work somewhat comfortably, build up a GTFO nut and then look for a job sounds like a good deal to me

Ok good point. The resume gap probably doesn't look good. I agree that 20K for a 3 year resume line item is probably better than 0 for a 2.5 year gap.

[sideroxylon]

my point is more that you're going to have a huge resume gap and you've done nothing to explain why now is the time to run

paying 20k for the ability to work somewhat comfortably, build up a GTFO nut and then look for a job sounds like a good deal to me

Ok good point. The resume gap probably doesn't look good. I agree that 20K for a 3 year resume line item is probably better than 0 for a 2.5 year gap.

i also feel like if you do law for a bit and quit, when people interview you you'll just be able to say "i really hated it, luckily i had good financial aid and was able to make a time consuming, but not expensive, mistake" or something like that

[patogordo]

it's also 20k for a job that pays 160k/yr. unless you have some other options that sounds like a pretty good investment

[jbagelboy]

it's also 20k for a job that pays 160k/yr. unless you have some other options that sounds like a pretty good investment

not to mention the sunk costs. OP can't get the last 2.5 yrs back

[lacrossebrother]

You can start your own firm with a JD. Why the fuck would you drop out

[Johann]

dropping out is dumb. 20k for a law degree or no law degree from a T10 - you have to finish absolutely. Even if you never want to practice law a day in your life you need to finish out the degree.
I'd stll recommend coasting through the end of school, and then actually working in ERISA before you determine you hate it. It's a very hot field that many people love. And the exit options are just as good if not better than corporate. 2 years at a firmin ERISA youll have exits.