Here's a question that has my TA's and I stumped. Forum

Mr.Throwback · Post by **Mr.Throwback** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:33 pm

Future Interests/estates.

A owns the FSA

A-->B "for life"

B now has a life estate.

B-->C "for life"

C now has the life estate.

Will the life estate end upon the death of B or C?

Thank you!

ph14 · Post by **ph14** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:34 pm

Mr.Throwback wrote:Future Interests/estates.

A owns the FSA

A-->B "for life"

B now has a life estate.

B-->C "for life"

C now has the life estate.

Will the life estate end upon the death of B or C?

Thank you!

B can't give more than what he has. Life estate ends upon B's death. That's one of the reasons why life estates are disfavored nowadays.

Disclaimer: I'm trying to remember this from my 1L property I could be wrong.

Mr.Throwback · Post by **Mr.Throwback** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:36 pm

Here is her response:

"This really is an interesting question. And I think the classification of C's interest turns on the language you used. Since you used B--->C "for life" and didn't say "for my life" or "for B's life" I think C might have a life estate subject to divestment (by A on the death of B)... in which case A would have a reversion AND a springing executory interest while C is alive... I THINK. But that's why I'm checking with him... I think something like this might come up on your practice exam too so look out for it. Again, great question. It's good that you're thinking about stuff like this."

Mr.Throwback · Post by **Mr.Throwback** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:37 pm

ph14 wrote:
Mr.Throwback wrote:Future Interests/estates.

A owns the FSA

A-->B "for life"

B now has a life estate.

B-->C "for life"

C now has the life estate.

Will the life estate end upon the death of B or C?

Thank you!
B can't give more than what he has. Life estate ends upon B's death. That's one of the reasons why life estates are disfavored nowadays.

Disclaimer: I'm trying to remember this from my 1L property I could be wrong.

I'm still confused.

B is giving all he has by giving the life estate to C.

ph14 · Post by **ph14** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:38 pm

Mr.Throwback wrote:Here is her response:

"This really is an interesting question. And I think the classification of C's interest turns on the language you used. Since you used B--->C "for life" and didn't say "for my life" or "for B's life" I think C might have a life estate subject to divestment (by A on the death of B)... in which case A would have a reversion AND a springing executory interest while C is alive... I THINK. But that's why I'm checking with him... I think something like this might come up on your practice exam too so look out for it. Again, great question. It's good that you're thinking about stuff like this."

Well report back and let us know what you find!

ph14 · Post by **ph14** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:40 pm

Mr.Throwback wrote:
ph14 wrote:
Mr.Throwback wrote:Future Interests/estates.

A owns the FSA

A-->B "for life"

B now has a life estate.

B-->C "for life"

C now has the life estate.

Will the life estate end upon the death of B or C?

Thank you!
B can't give more than what he has. Life estate ends upon B's death. That's one of the reasons why life estates are disfavored nowadays.

Disclaimer: I'm trying to remember this from my 1L property I could be wrong.
I'm still confused.

B is giving all he has by giving the life estate to C.

He can't give a life estate for longer than he lives, though, because that would be giving more than he has the rights to (says my brain desperately trying to remember Fall 1L). C would have the possessory interest of the estate because it was given by B (assuming a lifetime and not deathtime conveyance), but it would be measured by B's life, not C's, despite B's conveyance "for life."

Again, i'm going off 3 years of memory so just go with what your TA says. I bet you could find the answer to this out there on the internet.

ladybug · Post by **ladybug** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:42 pm

ph is right. The life estate ends with B.

BigZuck · Post by **BigZuck** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:42 pm

When B dies its going back to A (or his estate or whatever) regardless. But if C dies before B then it'll go back to B until he dies and it then goes back to A.

Right? What am I missing?

Eta: actually, if C dies first I'm not 100% that it could go back to B. B might have totally transferred any interest he had in the estate. But still, when B dies it goes back to A for sure.

ph14 · Post by **ph14** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:43 pm

A land owner of an estate cannot give a "greater interest" in the estate than he or she owns. That is, a life estate owner cannot give complete and indefinite ownership (fee simple) to another person because the life tenant's ownership in the property ends when the person who is the measuring life dies. For instance, if Bob conveyed to Ashley for the life of Ashley, and Ashley conveys a life estate to another person, Brenda, for Brenda's life [an embedded life estate], then Brenda's life estate interest would last only until whoever dies first, Brenda or Ashley. Then Brenda's interest conveys to the remainder interest or reverts to the original grantee. Once Ashley dies, however, whoever possesses the land loses it (with the land likely reverting to its original grantor). This is a life estate pur autre vie, or the life of another. Such a life estate can also be conveyed originally, such as "to A until B dies".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_estate

Mr.Throwback · Post by **Mr.Throwback** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:43 pm

BigZuck wrote:When B dies its going back to A (or his estate or whatever) regardless. But if C dies before B then it'll go back to B until he dies and it then goes back to A.

Right? What am I missing?

This makes sense..i think.

09042014 · Post by **09042014** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:44 pm

C has it until the first of C and B die. If B dies first it goes to A. If C dies first it goes back to B until B dies then to A.

I don't get why this is hard.

Mr.Throwback · Post by **Mr.Throwback** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:44 pm

ph14 wrote:
A land owner of an estate cannot give a "greater interest" in the estate than he or she owns. That is, a life estate owner cannot give complete and indefinite ownership (fee simple) to another person because the life tenant's ownership in the property ends when the person who is the measuring life dies. For instance, if Bob conveyed to Ashley for the life of Ashley, and Ashley conveys a life estate to another person, Brenda, for Brenda's life [an embedded life estate], then Brenda's life estate interest would last only until whoever dies first, Brenda or Ashley. Then Brenda's interest conveys to the remainder interest or reverts to the original grantee. Once Ashley dies, however, whoever possesses the land loses it (with the land likely reverting to its original grantor). This is a life estate pur autre vie, or the life of another. Such a life estate can also be conveyed originally, such as "to A until B dies".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_estate

BAM. this is definitely it.

Jchance · Post by **Jchance** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:44 pm

ladybug wrote:ph is right. The life estate ends with B.

+1. Life estate ends with B.

ph14 · Post by **ph14** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:47 pm

Desert Fox wrote:C has it until the first of C and B die. If B dies first it goes to A. If C dies first it goes back to B until B dies then to A.

I don't get why this is hard.

Yeah, not sure where TA is getting stuff like "springing executory interest" and what not.

ph14 · Post by **ph14** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:47 pm

Moral of the story: TLS is your new TA.

Mr.Throwback · Post by **Mr.Throwback** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:48 pm

ph14 wrote:Moral of the story: TLS is your new TA.

Haha. I guess so.

ladybug · Post by **ladybug** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:53 pm

ph14 wrote:Moral of the story: TLS is your new TA.

I was just about to caution OP to beware of asking the TA questions about future interests. Sounds like TA does not understand them too well.

Future interests are fun.

Mr.Throwback · Post by **Mr.Throwback** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:05 pm

How do we classify all the interests then?

ph14 · Post by **ph14** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:07 pm

Mr.Throwback wrote:How do we classify all the interests then?

I'll let someone else take this one, lol. I cannot remember.

transferror · Post by **transferror** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:13 pm

ph14 wrote:
Mr.Throwback wrote:How do we classify all the interests then?
I'll let someone else take this one, lol. I cannot remember.

B has a contingent remainder in life estate (contingent on C dying before B), and A has a reversion.

ph14 · Post by **ph14** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:28 pm

transferror wrote:
ph14 wrote:
Mr.Throwback wrote:How do we classify all the interests then?
I'll let someone else take this one, lol. I cannot remember.
B has a contingent remainder in life estate (contingent on C dying before B), and A has a reversion.

And C has a life estate pur autre vie.

brotherdarkness · Post by **brotherdarkness** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:39 pm

ph14 · Post by **ph14** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:41 pm

brotherdarkness wrote:
ladybug wrote: Future interests are fun.
Ew.

At least there is an answer. Which makes it better than a lot of other concepts.

heavoldgotjuice · Post by **heavoldgotjuice** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:43 pm

It's a life estate pur autre vie.

A gives Life Estate to B (A retains a reversion).

B gives Life Estate to C (A still has a reversion, B has nothing, C now has a Life Estate for the duration of B's life)

When B dies, C's Life Estate is no more, and A has the FSA.

If C dies before B, A now gets the FSA, not B because B conveyed to C.

Danger Zone · Post by **Danger Zone** » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:48 pm

heavoldgotjuice wrote: If C dies before B, A now gets the FSA, not B because B conveyed to C.

Are you sure on this last part? I would think C's heirs could hold onto it until B's death.

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