After Grades - What did we learn?

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prezidentv8
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby prezidentv8 » Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:08 pm

I also learned that I still have no idea what a good test looks like.

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superserial
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby superserial » Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:21 pm

that I'm gonna be employed!

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rayiner
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby rayiner » Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:29 pm

eth3n wrote:one bad grade can make the difference between #1 and median


Not even close (unless you fail, I guess).

Take a hypothetical 3.95 here at NU (which is top 5%, but not #1):

A+, A, A, A-, A- (2 cr)

Say this person bombs one of the substantive classes, and get's a B- (lowest mandatory grade on our curve).

A+, A, B-, A-, A- (2 cr)

That's still 3.66, which is probably top quarter or so.

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98234872348
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby 98234872348 » Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:19 pm

rayiner wrote:That's still 3.66, which is probably top quarter or so.


More like top 10% (at any other school).

Bankhead
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby Bankhead » Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:25 pm

betasteve wrote:
rayiner wrote:
eth3n wrote:one bad grade can make the difference between #1 and median


Not even close (unless you fail, I guess).

Take a hypothetical 3.95 here at NU (which is top 5%, but not #1):

A+, A, A, A-, A- (2 cr)

Say this person bombs one of the substantive classes, and get's a B- (lowest mandatory grade on our curve).

A+, A, B-, A-, A- (2 cr)

That's still 3.66, which is probably top quarter or so.

I am proof that ray is right.


Yeah, but you guys also have 5 fucking grades. Some people have 3.

amped
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby amped » Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:35 pm

Hey what's a good practice questions book (like E&E) for con law? Obviously there's the E&E, but I've heard it's only so-so. Of course I'd only be using it for the practice questions so maybe it'd be ok. I've heard about Siegel's multiple choice thing as well. Is that a good one? Anyone know of any others?

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vanwinkle
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby vanwinkle » Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:47 pm

rayiner wrote:
eth3n wrote:one bad grade can make the difference between #1 and median


Not even close (unless you fail, I guess).

Take a hypothetical 3.95 here at NU (which is top 5%, but not #1):

A+, A, A, A-, A- (2 cr)

Say this person bombs one of the substantive classes, and get's a B- (lowest mandatory grade on our curve).

A+, A, B-, A-, A- (2 cr)

That's still 3.66, which is probably top quarter or so.

UVA has a 3.3 curve with top 10% at 3.65, so consider these two scenarios:

B+, A-, A-, A+

The classes are 4 credits each except one A- which is a 3 credit. This reflects a typical 1L fall semester (one of our fall classes is only 3 credits, I forget which). This would yield a hypothetical GPA of 3.75, putting its holder at somewhere around top 5% and onto LR. However, if the first three grades stay the same but the last one is a bomb instead, this happens:

B+, A-, A-, B-

Only one grade has changed, but it's a 4-credit course so it weighs things down pretty heavily, especially since this is a B+ curve. The GPA drops an awful lot, all the way to a 3.326.

Since median is 3.33, this means that one grade can actually be the difference between LR (which is top 25/360, or around 7%) and median or slightly below it.

This is why waiting for your last grade can really suck. If it comes in high, you can be golden, but if it comes in low, all your hard work on the first three can be tanked and your dreams dashed in an instant.

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rayiner
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby rayiner » Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:14 am

vanwinkle wrote:This is why waiting for your last grade can really suck. If it comes in high, you can be golden, but if it comes in low, all your hard work on the first three can be tanked and your dreams dashed in an instant.


Small SD's for the lose!

Snooker
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby Snooker » Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:16 am

I think I have isolated a potential uber factor in grades. I will report back at the end of next term with more results.

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rayiner
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby rayiner » Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:33 am

Snooker wrote:I think I have isolated a potential uber factor in grades. I will report back at the end of next term with more results.


Not sucking at life?

dcz222
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby dcz222 » Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:11 am

I did not attend law school for the last month and a half, and I ended up with an A- average.
I'm somewhere around average in terms of intelligence in my law school.

I attribute my success - 100% - to LEEWS, and Getting to Maybe.
I would ordinarily hesitate to call an A- effort a success at my particular school where A-'s are as frequent as make-up classes for legal-writing - but I'd call it a success given that I was a no-show for 25% of the first term.

To bullet point it:
- Spot issues
- Analyze and argue in the alternative
- Choose a writing style that maximizes legal issues spotted+analyzed per minute of typing.
- Think while typing (got MUUUCH better at this due to practice)
- Execute

The last point is meaningless, I just like it when sports teams use it .

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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby Snooker » Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:36 am

No not sucking at life at all, this term definitely conformed to my expectations (model answers included). Moreover I practiced my westlaw skills over the break to see if there's any empirical evidence & theory to explain all of this. There is, and it seems like the typical strategies don't actually correlate up with grades - it's been studied.

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rayiner
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby rayiner » Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:12 pm

Snooker wrote:No not sucking at life at all, this term definitely conformed to my expectations (model answers included). Moreover I practiced my westlaw skills over the break to see if there's any empirical evidence & theory to explain all of this. There is, and it seems like the typical strategies don't actually correlate up with grades - it's been studied.


Why would there be a correlation between study strategy and grades? The end product is what matters - how you get there doesn't.

It's really not rocket science. You apply the law to the facts. Occasionally, you justify your conclusion with a public policy argument (but only occasionally unless you have a professor you know cares about policy). You explore the contours and ambiguities in the law itself, guided by what highlights the professor noted in class. How you learn the law is irrelevant as long as you have internalized it. I used mostly the casebook, with supplements only for verification*. I know several people who have had good success wih supplements, on the other hand. The key is to figure out what works for you, then do it.

What do you think a study will prove?

*) The one class were I did use a supplement to make my outline (crim) I ended up bringing up all sorts of irrelevant law, and my professor specifically mentioned that I probably got the stuff from a supplement when I went over the exam with him.

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prezidentv8
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby prezidentv8 » Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:40 pm

rayiner wrote:*) The one class were I did use a supplement to make my outline (crim) I ended up bringing up all sorts of irrelevant law, and my professor specifically mentioned that I probably got the stuff from a supplement when I went over the exam with him.


Not like it consciously seemed to affect my comfort level with the material, but more supplement use --> better grades in a given class last semester for me.

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rayiner
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby rayiner » Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:42 pm

prezidentv8 wrote:
rayiner wrote:*) The one class were I did use a supplement to make my outline (crim) I ended up bringing up all sorts of irrelevant law, and my professor specifically mentioned that I probably got the stuff from a supplement when I went over the exam with him.


Not like it consciously seemed to affect my comfort level with the material, but more supplement use --> better grades in a given class last semester for me.


Not opposing supplements. Just pointing out that people have different things that worked for them. I know Snooker swears by hornbooks, for example, but I never cracked one myself.

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prezidentv8
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby prezidentv8 » Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:44 pm

rayiner wrote:
prezidentv8 wrote:
rayiner wrote:*) The one class were I did use a supplement to make my outline (crim) I ended up bringing up all sorts of irrelevant law, and my professor specifically mentioned that I probably got the stuff from a supplement when I went over the exam with him.


Not like it consciously seemed to affect my comfort level with the material, but more supplement use --> better grades in a given class last semester for me.


Not opposing supplements. Just pointing out that people have different things that worked for them. I know Snooker swears by hornbooks, for example, but I never cracked one myself.


For sure. Fwiw, I think it was partially a "different strokes..." issue and partly how each class was taught and tested. I still don't know what I'm doing in any meaningful way.

VincentChase
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby VincentChase » Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:50 pm

The "internalizing" the law part is the most important. You have to know it to the point that you can teach it to somebody else, which is harder than it sounds. Think about the subject you love most in the world, whether it be NBA basketball, the films of Martin Scorcese, etc., etc. You should own the rules of joinder to the same degree that you know the plot of "The Departed," to the point where you don't even have to struggle to think about it any more. It's just part of you.

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prezidentv8
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby prezidentv8 » Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:57 pm

VincentChase wrote:The "internalizing" the law part is the most important. You have to know it to the point that you can teach it to somebody else, which is harder than it sounds. Think about the subject you love most in the world, whether it be NBA basketball, the films of Martin Scorcese, etc., etc. You should own the rules of joinder to the same degree that you know the plot of "The Departed," to the point where you don't even have to struggle to think about it any more. It's just part of you.


Joinder is my bread and butter. :mrgreen:

VincentChase
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby VincentChase » Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:59 pm

prezidentv8 wrote:
VincentChase wrote:The "internalizing" the law part is the most important. You have to know it to the point that you can teach it to somebody else, which is harder than it sounds. Think about the subject you love most in the world, whether it be NBA basketball, the films of Martin Scorcese, etc., etc. You should own the rules of joinder to the same degree that you know the plot of "The Departed," to the point where you don't even have to struggle to think about it any more. It's just part of you.


Joinder is my bread and butter. :mrgreen:


So you think! :wink:

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prezidentv8
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby prezidentv8 » Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:01 pm

VincentChase wrote:
prezidentv8 wrote:
VincentChase wrote:The "internalizing" the law part is the most important. You have to know it to the point that you can teach it to somebody else, which is harder than it sounds. Think about the subject you love most in the world, whether it be NBA basketball, the films of Martin Scorcese, etc., etc. You should own the rules of joinder to the same degree that you know the plot of "The Departed," to the point where you don't even have to struggle to think about it any more. It's just part of you.


Joinder is my bread and butter. :mrgreen:


So you think! :wink:


I know now 8) ....must've nailed the joinder clusterfuck question because my policy answer was most definitely garbage.

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rbgrocio
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby rbgrocio » Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:19 pm

prezidentv8 wrote:
rayiner wrote:*) The one class were I did use a supplement to make my outline (crim) I ended up bringing up all sorts of irrelevant law, and my professor specifically mentioned that I probably got the stuff from a supplement when I went over the exam with him.


Not like it consciously seemed to affect my comfort level with the material, but more supplement use --> better grades in a given class last semester for me.



I didn't use any supplements last semester, and I did quite well.. This semester I bought Emanuel outlines for property, civ pro and crim. I read the as my "story book" before going to bed. My strategy: read during the day, outline when I get home what we went over in class and complement it ONLY with highlights from the book. I do not add supplement stuff to my outline. I just use them to review and understand better what we went over in class.

VincentChase
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby VincentChase » Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:38 pm

rbgrocio wrote:
prezidentv8 wrote:
rayiner wrote:*) The one class were I did use a supplement to make my outline (crim) I ended up bringing up all sorts of irrelevant law, and my professor specifically mentioned that I probably got the stuff from a supplement when I went over the exam with him.


Not like it consciously seemed to affect my comfort level with the material, but more supplement use --> better grades in a given class last semester for me.



I didn't use any supplements last semester, and I did quite well.. This semester I bought Emanuel outlines for property, civ pro and crim. I read the as my "story book" before going to bed. My strategy: read during the day, outline when I get home what we went over in class and complement it ONLY with highlights from the book. I do not add supplement stuff to my outline. I just use them to review and understand better what we went over in class.


That seems to be the proper way to use them, to help reinforce classroom and casebook learning. Compare it to working out. You work your biceps by hitting the muscle at different angles. You don't work your biceps by working out your calves, though.

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rbgrocio
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby rbgrocio » Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:45 pm

VincentChase wrote:
rbgrocio wrote:
prezidentv8 wrote:
rayiner wrote:*) The one class were I did use a supplement to make my outline (crim) I ended up bringing up all sorts of irrelevant law, and my professor specifically mentioned that I probably got the stuff from a supplement when I went over the exam with him.


Not like it consciously seemed to affect my comfort level with the material, but more supplement use --> better grades in a given class last semester for me.



I didn't use any supplements last semester, and I did quite well.. This semester I bought Emanuel outlines for property, civ pro and crim. I read the as my "story book" before going to bed. My strategy: read during the day, outline when I get home what we went over in class and complement it ONLY with highlights from the book. I do not add supplement stuff to my outline. I just use them to review and understand better what we went over in class.


That seems to be the proper way to use them, to help reinforce classroom and casebook learning. Compare it to working out. You work your biceps by hitting the muscle at different angles. You don't work your biceps by working out your calves, though.



Yeah... I only use them for context and examples... The supplements include a lot of stuff professors don't go over because of time constraints, etc. I also bough Q&As this semester. We don't get ranked until the end of Spring, and even though I think I am in the run for top ten... I want to make sure I make it there... so I'm trying to kick it up a notch a bit this semester.

VincentChase
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby VincentChase » Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:45 pm

The best supplements either coincide with your casebook or, in the best cases, your professor. Though I think a lot of people got screwed in my property class last semester because they figured that the Gilbert's guide was a direct pipeline into the mind of Krier and skimped on the casebook reading (including me at times).

Problem is when every single person does that, it's tough to get any sort of edge.

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JazzOne
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby JazzOne » Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:52 pm

I think I may have used the supplements in a unique way. It surprises me every time I hear someone say that he cited a bunch of irrelevant law because of a supplement. I first decided to use a supplement because my civil procedure professor spent the first three weeks of class talking about pre-trial seizure. My classmates from the other sections were talking about personal jurisdiction and subject matter jurisdiction, and frankly, I felt a little cheated that I wasn't getting a firm understanding of these basics in my class. I picked up the E&E to learn the procedural principles beyond those that my professor wanted to teach. In my professor's defense, he eventually covered jurisdiction, but I read the whole E&E, and I learned a lot of interesting things that we never covered in class. I used the examples to practice using the IRAC format. I think that was very helpful even if many of the exact topics were never tested by my professor. I read the E&E that corresponded to each of my courses last semester, and I plan to do so again this semester. I'm not trying to game my finals at all. I just enjoy the material.




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