After Grades - What did we learn?

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M_Cool
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby M_Cool » Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:44 pm

I relied on the Chem supp heavily in Con Law as did most people I know. You don't even need the case book in that class if you use that supp. I didn't read a single case and got CALI by tabbing the shiet out of it and outlining around it. It's gold.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:41 am

steve_nash wrote:
TTT-LS wrote:
excelsiorcaelo wrote:I see lots of people here and elsewhere swearing by (and sometimes at) one supplement or another.

My question: is it ever really necessary to read, say, both E&E and a hornbook for a given class, as has occasionally been implied?

No. Honestly. Attend class + do reading + take good class notes + consult relevant supplement occasionally + condense notes + not freak out = success. It isn't some secret formula.


TITCR.


+1. Although I would say that you can get away with not taking the reading that seriously and simply taking really good class notes.

Hitachi
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby Hitachi » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:45 pm

And I got away without ever taking any class notes.

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excelsiorcaelo
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby excelsiorcaelo » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:52 pm

Hitachi wrote:And I got away without ever taking any class notes.


So what did you do?

Hitachi
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby Hitachi » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:22 pm

Practice exams, clearly the most important/efficient way of preparing - you are graded on your ability to take a test, not your ability to take notes or brief cases.

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RudeDudewithAttitude
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby RudeDudewithAttitude » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:32 pm

TTT-LS wrote:
excelsiorcaelo wrote:I see lots of people here and elsewhere swearing by (and sometimes at) one supplement or another.

My question: is it ever really necessary to read, say, both E&E and a hornbook for a given class, as has occasionally been implied?

No. Honestly. Attend class + do reading + take good class notes + consult relevant supplement occasionally + condense notes + not freak out = success. It isn't some secret formula.


What do you guys think of the LS Success article, which advocates a strong hornbook/E&E emphasis and a quick read of the casebook? For those who were successful reading the casebook first and only using a supplement when necessary, how extensively did you brief?

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Carnertine
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby Carnertine » Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:48 pm

Here is what I did which substantially increased my GPA from 1st to 2nd semester...

By half way through the semester I was finished with all my readings.
I outlined up to date and began to outline to the rest of the semester.
I used a few supplements to help me with outlining and condensing the information but didn't rely on them.
The day or two before class (*ideally) or day of the class I would reread what I had previously read to refresh and put it back into my memory. I felt that this now has put the material in front of me 3 different times in 3 different views. An initial view with limited knowledge. A refreshing view with updated knowledge. Comprehensive view which would hopefully take place in class to place it into the bigger picture.
I would then fix my outline to simplify what had occurred with class in addition to the supplement. I used symbols and shortened words or phrases to make my outline shorter.
Started practice exams and multiple choice about 1-2 weeks before each final and separated studying to correspond with the finals that week.
I also had what was like an OCD type thing which meant me rewriting my outline for classes many times and in different ways. It became quite annoying and I have too many contracts and property files on my computer now.

I did still manage time to watch a few shows I enjoyed, stayed in and drank with friends, and almost finished an entire season of NHL.

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steve_nash
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby steve_nash » Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:23 am

RudeDudewithAttitude wrote:
TTT-LS wrote:
excelsiorcaelo wrote:I see lots of people here and elsewhere swearing by (and sometimes at) one supplement or another.

My question: is it ever really necessary to read, say, both E&E and a hornbook for a given class, as has occasionally been implied?

No. Honestly. Attend class + do reading + take good class notes + consult relevant supplement occasionally + condense notes + not freak out = success. It isn't some secret formula.


What do you guys think of the LS Success article, which advocates a strong hornbook/E&E emphasis and a quick read of the casebook? For those who were successful reading the casebook first and only using a supplement when necessary, how extensively did you brief?


While I can't prove causation, I think part of the reason I did much better second semester was because I stopped mindlessly consulting supplements. First semester, I did the E&Es in their entirety, read some sections of hornbooks, and looked at commercial outlines. I had gotten the impression from TLS that reading supplements was key to success in law school. Second semester, I only used supplements when I really didn't understand something after doing the reading, going to class, and thinking about it myself.
However, I did not brief extensively second semester. I book-briefed in two classes. In the others, I made some highlights, but that was it. I do the reading beforehand mainly so I can follow along in class.

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lawlover829
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby lawlover829 » Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:33 am

I did not learn anything.

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BradyToMoss
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby BradyToMoss » Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:18 pm

Sorry for the length, but thanks to a lot of useful advice from TLS I did very well and wanted to post a detailed reply about my approach since I thought it was very efficient and effective. Hopefully this is as helpful to future 1Ls as some TLS threads were for me.


- The best supplement for your class (use TLS suggestions at first, then judge the professor/his old exams/syllabus to figure out which one is best) + An Old outline that is professor specific (just requires details, need not be great) = solid gold.

- I usually just reviewed the old outline for the upcoming topic in class that day, flipped through CaseBriefs, and read along with the outline during the class, editing it as I felt necessary. I felt that not worrying about note taking and all the little details of the cases, and instead just thinking about what the professor said was much more helpful.
- I made sure to avoid burn out. I did not kill myself in the beginning and middle of the semester, and would not study for more than 8 hours in a day near finals, and most days were around 6. Find time to relax and do whatever it is that you enjoy. I thought a lot of my classmates were burnt out with a few weeks left, and that's when you need to be at your best.

- For a couple classes second semester I rarely attended after getting either a really good outline or confirmation from the professor that there was a great supplement out there for the class. This worked out well for me, but I certainly would not take this approach first semester


- I spent almost no time with the casebooks first semester, and did not open them second semester, it worked very well.

- About a month before the first final I devoted a 3-4 day period to thoroughly read my chosen supplement for one class for all the topics our class covered, worrying only about that class and ignoring the others during that period. Towards the end of the 3-4 period as I was finishing the supplement, I would review my outline once or twice that I would use (Often with minimal changes from the original old outline I got a hold of).

- During the 3 days before each final I would then focus on that class, reviewing my main outline, reading another old outline or two if I had them and it seemed they may be worth it, and outlining my potential answers for as many practice tests as I could get a hold of before reviewing the sample answers.

Classes and Supplements Used:

Torts: Glannon's E&E
- My prof was a legend, excellent guy to have 1L first semester for Torts. I read the assigned reading before each class (socratic method so I had to), followed along on an old outline. E&E was excellent, read a few weeks before final then read thru the old outline and took practice tests a lot. Grade: AmJur

Contracts: Chirelstein and Emanuel's
- Attended class regularly, some casebook reading but mostly casebriefs. Prof taught Ks in a pretty straight-forward way, but seemed to put things in his own terms. He was new, so I made my own outline from class notes. Chirelstein was good for a general understanding of Ks, but Emanuel was excellent and I knew far more about Ks than the Prof taught us after reading Emanuel. Grade: AmJur

CivPro: Glannon's E&E
- Cool prof, but banned laptops so I had no notes. Used Casebriefs instead of casebook 95% of the time. An old outline helped, but the Glannon E&E is the best supplement for any class IMO. Read it twice, or three times if you feel worried. Focus on the examples, they really test the areas of conflict in CivPro. Grade: AmJur

Property: E&E
- Professor was excellent for me, just laid out the rules every class and had taught it for 20 years, so the old outlines were right on point. Very rule based course and I enjoyed it, so I had a good grasp just from showing up to class, but I still thought the E&E was right on point. If you struggle with Future Interests/RAP, I'd highly suggest Estates and Future Interests: Problems and Answers (the green one). Grade: 2nd Highest in class

CrimLaw: Glannon Guide to Crim Law written by Levenson
- No casebook reading, used an old outline that everyone had but it was right on the money. Very theoretical prof, did not focus much on BLL, so I chose the short supp instead of Dressler, but have heard great things about Dressler. Flipped thru the E&E, it was terrible. Grade: 2nd Highest

ConLaw: Chemerinsky
- Chem taught me everything. Absolute, solid gold for any con law course. Only had to read about 300 pages of it, but I read it twice and made my outline based on Chem since it was new prof and I hadn't been to class. Chem is the man for ConLaw. Grade: Tied for highest grade.

LRW: I failed to follow my orientation leader's advice, and I blew off the ungraded rough draft assignments. I also saved the papers for the night before. My grade suffered because of this, and I would definitely recommend working diligently on the rough draft so you have useful feedback for the final memos/motions. Also, I consistently hurt myself with bluebooking mistakes. It is tedious and annoying, but the points add up. Your Writing Prof/Fellow should be pretty helpful with this, I think it is just a matter of attention to detail and time. Grade: 3.4

Model Rules Classes: If you do a model rules based class 1L at your law school, I would again recommend the E&E. It is excellent, as all the E&Es seem to be for rules based courses.

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steve_nash
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby steve_nash » Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:52 pm

BradyToMoss wrote:Sorry for the length, but thanks to a lot of useful advice from TLS I did very well and wanted to post a detailed reply about my approach since I thought it was very efficient and effective. Hopefully this is as helpful to future 1Ls as some TLS threads were for me.


- The best supplement for your class (use TLS suggestions at first, then judge the professor/his old exams/syllabus to figure out which one is best) + An Old outline that is professor specific (just requires details, need not be great) = solid gold.

- I usually just reviewed the old outline for the upcoming topic in class that day, flipped through CaseBriefs, and read along with the outline during the class, editing it as I felt necessary. I felt that not worrying about note taking and all the little details of the cases, and instead just thinking about what the professor said was much more helpful.
- I made sure to avoid burn out. I did not kill myself in the beginning and middle of the semester, and would not study for more than 8 hours in a day near finals, and most days were around 6. Find time to relax and do whatever it is that you enjoy. I thought a lot of my classmates were burnt out with a few weeks left, and that's when you need to be at your best.

- For a couple classes second semester I rarely attended after getting either a really good outline or confirmation from the professor that there was a great supplement out there for the class. This worked out well for me, but I certainly would not take this approach first semester


- I spent almost no time with the casebooks first semester, and did not open them second semester, it worked very well.

- About a month before the first final I devoted a 3-4 day period to thoroughly read my chosen supplement for one class for all the topics our class covered, worrying only about that class and ignoring the others during that period. Towards the end of the 3-4 period as I was finishing the supplement, I would review my outline once or twice that I would use (Often with minimal changes from the original old outline I got a hold of).

- During the 3 days before each final I would then focus on that class, reviewing my main outline, reading another old outline or two if I had them and it seemed they may be worth it, and outlining my potential answers for as many practice tests as I could get a hold of before reviewing the sample answers.

Classes and Supplements Used:

Torts: Glannon's E&E
- My prof was a legend, excellent guy to have 1L first semester for Torts. I read the assigned reading before each class (socratic method so I had to), followed along on an old outline. E&E was excellent, read a few weeks before final then read thru the old outline and took practice tests a lot. Grade: AmJur

Contracts: Chirelstein and Emanuel's
- Attended class regularly, some casebook reading but mostly casebriefs. Prof taught Ks in a pretty straight-forward way, but seemed to put things in his own terms. He was new, so I made my own outline from class notes. Chirelstein was good for a general understanding of Ks, but Emanuel was excellent and I knew far more about Ks than the Prof taught us after reading Emanuel. Grade: AmJur

CivPro: Glannon's E&E
- Cool prof, but banned laptops so I had no notes. Used Casebriefs instead of casebook 95% of the time. An old outline helped, but the Glannon E&E is the best supplement for any class IMO. Read it twice, or three times if you feel worried. Focus on the examples, they really test the areas of conflict in CivPro. Grade: AmJur

Property: E&E
- Professor was excellent for me, just laid out the rules every class and had taught it for 20 years, so the old outlines were right on point. Very rule based course and I enjoyed it, so I had a good grasp just from showing up to class, but I still thought the E&E was right on point. If you struggle with Future Interests/RAP, I'd highly suggest Estates and Future Interests: Problems and Answers (the green one). Grade: 2nd Highest in class

CrimLaw: Glannon Guide to Crim Law written by Levenson
- No casebook reading, used an old outline that everyone had but it was right on the money. Very theoretical prof, did not focus much on BLL, so I chose the short supp instead of Dressler, but have heard great things about Dressler. Flipped thru the E&E, it was terrible. Grade: 2nd Highest

ConLaw: Chemerinsky
- Chem taught me everything. Absolute, solid gold for any con law course. Only had to read about 300 pages of it, but I read it twice and made my outline based on Chem since it was new prof and I hadn't been to class. Chem is the man for ConLaw. Grade: Tied for highest grade.

LRW: I failed to follow my orientation leader's advice, and I blew off the ungraded rough draft assignments. I also saved the papers for the night before. My grade suffered because of this, and I would definitely recommend working diligently on the rough draft so you have useful feedback for the final memos/motions. Also, I consistently hurt myself with bluebooking mistakes. It is tedious and annoying, but the points add up. Your Writing Prof/Fellow should be pretty helpful with this, I think it is just a matter of attention to detail and time. Grade: 3.4

Model Rules Classes: If you do a model rules based class 1L at your law school, I would again recommend the E&E. It is excellent, as all the E&Es seem to be for rules based courses.


those are awesome grades--major congrats!

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edcrane
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby edcrane » Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:29 pm

steve_nash wrote:
RudeDudewithAttitude wrote:
TTT-LS wrote:
excelsiorcaelo wrote:I see lots of people here and elsewhere swearing by (and sometimes at) one supplement or another.

My question: is it ever really necessary to read, say, both E&E and a hornbook for a given class, as has occasionally been implied?

No. Honestly. Attend class + do reading + take good class notes + consult relevant supplement occasionally + condense notes + not freak out = success. It isn't some secret formula.


What do you guys think of the LS Success article, which advocates a strong hornbook/E&E emphasis and a quick read of the casebook? For those who were successful reading the casebook first and only using a supplement when necessary, how extensively did you brief?


While I can't prove causation, I think part of the reason I did much better second semester was because I stopped mindlessly consulting supplements. First semester, I did the E&Es in their entirety, read some sections of hornbooks, and looked at commercial outlines. I had gotten the impression from TLS that reading supplements was key to success in law school. Second semester, I only used supplements when I really didn't understand something after doing the reading, going to class, and thinking about it myself.
However, I did not brief extensively second semester. I book-briefed in two classes. In the others, I made some highlights, but that was it. I do the reading beforehand mainly so I can follow along in class.


So fucking credited. Maybe it's just me, but I found that the "ls success" article provided horrible advice. I diligently did E&E's and consulted hornbooks regularly during the first semester. Results: slightly above median grades. After talking to a friend who managed to get a 4.0 during the first semester, I dropped that shit like a bad habit during second semester. I spent zero time on supplements, only reviewed readings and practice tests, and ended up w/a GPA > 4.0. In sum, supplements = big ass waste of time.

snotrocket
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby snotrocket » Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:38 pm

Contracts: Doted on Prof's every word. I thought she was the bomb diggity and didn't use supplements except for an outline. I did about 5 full length practice tests and knew the BLL pretty cold. I loved this class and put a ton of effort into it. Every test she'd ever given was up on her website. The final was also an focused issued spotter. I got a B+.

Crim Law: I hated this class. The professor was ridiculously Socratic so I basically just sat in class pissing myself that I'd be called on by him. He was mean and vindictive, and not in that "I'm trying to shape your mind" kind of way, but rather the "You're a bunch of fucking idiots" kind of way. I did one practice exam. The actual test was a total nightmare. I'd never seen any test like it. I had a very large statutory supplement that was rife with useless statutes that didn't apply to the facts. Key facts were missing from almost every hypo. I had a very extreme freakout during this exam. I'm a dumbass. I got a B+.

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BradyToMoss
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby BradyToMoss » Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:32 pm

edcrane wrote:So fucking credited. Maybe it's just me, but I found that the "ls success" article provided horrible advice. I diligently did E&E's and consulted hornbooks regularly during the first semester. Results: slightly above median grades. After talking to a friend who managed to get a 4.0 during the first semester, I dropped that shit like a bad habit during second semester. I spent zero time on supplements, only reviewed readings and practice tests, and ended up w/a GPA > 4.0. In sum, supplements = big ass waste of time.


I beg to differ.

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steve_nash
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby steve_nash » Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:41 pm

BradyToMoss wrote:
edcrane wrote:So fucking credited. Maybe it's just me, but I found that the "ls success" article provided horrible advice. I diligently did E&E's and consulted hornbooks regularly during the first semester. Results: slightly above median grades. After talking to a friend who managed to get a 4.0 during the first semester, I dropped that shit like a bad habit during second semester. I spent zero time on supplements, only reviewed readings and practice tests, and ended up w/a GPA > 4.0. In sum, supplements = big ass waste of time.


I beg to differ.


One thing I hope 0Ls will take away from this debate: there is not "one way, one truth, one life" [to paraphrase] to good grades. Brady's are much better than mine, and he used supplements extensively. Do what works. I found for me, I learn better without--but that's just me. I discovered second semester that I understand better by listening to lectures and then retyping my notes later on when I did my outline. I rarely had to go to an outline or supplement after I did that. It saved me a lot of time and, I believe, resulted in better grades.

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BradyToMoss
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby BradyToMoss » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:04 pm

^ Agreed, definitely different approach for different people. Try what works for you, try suggestions people posted here, but the big thing is to have a game plan and long term-focus on the exams. Congrats to all the TLS'ers who did well, lots of people who did very well.

gollymolly
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby gollymolly » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:07 pm

.
Last edited by gollymolly on Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Clever username
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby Clever username » Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:50 pm

From the long post a couple posts up, what the hell does AmJur mean when it comes to grades?

snotrocket
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby snotrocket » Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:51 pm

Clever username wrote:From the long post a couple posts up, what the hell does AmJur mean when it comes to grades?

I'm guessing its another award for highest grade in the class -- like the CALI.

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spanktheduck
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby spanktheduck » Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:44 am

[/quote]
BUT the one thing that I think is universal is that you need to understand how to take a law school exam. I've gotten really great grades that sometimes don't at all reflect my understanding of the substantive law because I know how to take a law exam. If you don't understand the general lay out of what an exam should look like, then read a bunch of them online. They don't even have to be for the class you're taking, you should just observe the structures other people use in attacking the exams.[/quote]

Credited. I easily knew less that many of my classmates (IE: many could site cases ad nausam, I don't think I knew the name of one for some classes) but I beat them on the exams b/c I knew how to take a law school exam.

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msumike75
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby msumike75 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:07 am

I learned that the class I put the most effort in and enjoy I did the best in A+ in Property. By FAR my best grade this year. I am so stoked.

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Dead Ringer
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby Dead Ringer » Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:30 pm

msumike75 wrote:I learned that the class I put the most effort in and enjoy I did the best in A+ in Property. By FAR my best grade this year. I am so stoked.


Good Job. I hope we plan to revive this thread.

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biggamejames
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby biggamejames » Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:36 pm

Dead Ringer wrote:
msumike75 wrote:I learned that the class I put the most effort in and enjoy I did the best in A+ in Property. By FAR my best grade this year. I am so stoked.

Good Job. I hope we plan to revive this thread.

My 1L grades did not correlate with anything.

Contracts: Loved the prof, studied hard. Got an A.
Torts: Was bored, played Facebook games in class every day, read the supplement at the end. Got an A.
Civ Pro: My favorite class. Worked hard. Took notes. Totally owned personal jurisdiction, Eerie, and supplemental jurisdiction shit. Got a B.
Property: Hated it. Stopped paying attention in late October. Read the supplement. Got a B.

Lesson: Do what you like, learn because it's fun, and don't bother sweating the grades. They'll be what they'll be.

Snooker
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby Snooker » Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:31 pm

disclaimer - random late night post, I haven't gotten grades yet

I think using a hornbook before going to the casebook is helpful, but the hornbooks I am using are the best hornbooks and they match the casebook authors. I don't use E&Es, but I do practice with CALI and some essay type stuff. I take the casebook very seriously, but only read it once. I take notes from the casebook about what the rules are and such. I review that a good bit. Profs have pointed out that whenever they cold call me they know I know all of the law inside and out... But I am not preparing for class, I am preparing for the exam.
Last edited by Snooker on Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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BradyToMoss
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Re: After Grades - What did we learn?

Postby BradyToMoss » Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:46 pm

Snooker wrote:I think using a hornbook before going to the casebook is helpful, but the hornbooks I am using are the best hornbooks and they match the casebook authors. I don't use E&Es, but I do practice with CALI and some essay type stuff. I take the casebook very seriously, but only read it once. I take notes from the casebook about what the rules are and such. I review that a good bit. Profs have pointed out that whenever they cold call me they know I know all of the law inside and out... But I am not preparing for class, I am preparing for the exam.


So what did YOUR grades teach you? That reading the casebook is key to doing well?




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