B,B-,B- at Penn

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PennLaw16
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Re: B,B-,B- at Penn

Postby PennLaw16 » Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:53 am

Dunno what y'all are getting so antsy about. Do you seriously believe the majority of students are taking out a full $75k a year? That's just not reasonable. Almost half of Penn gets institutional aid, not to mention the substantial portion of students whose wealthy families are covering the costs.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... ngs/page+3

Average indebtedness of a graduating law school student from University of Pennsylvania is $118,000. And that only measures the law school students who actually incurred debt. 29% of law school grads from UPenn didn't incur debt at all.

Anyway, the point isn't really average indebtedness. The point is math. You can fix the numbers as necessary. If 40k per year isn't the right number for you, you can adjust as necessary and determine whether the annual payments would outweigh the utility of the degree. Dropping out for the sake of dropping out isn't sound advice unless you're going to be able to find employment of substantially similar quality to what you would get if you stay in school. The worse your class ranking, the easier that is. But it's highly individualized. If you're a computer science major with a 90k/year job waiting on you, you should probably be BigLaw or bust from a monetary standpoint. If you're a philosophy major from Idaho with no connections and no real job prospects, you may be better off sticking in school even if the debt is going to be enormous.

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jbagelboy
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Re: B,B-,B- at Penn

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:15 am

Eh. Not at Penn, but I guess for those of us without family money going towards our law school tuition, seems pretty bullshit that others have it in such substantial numbers, regardless of the percentage of the class with entitlement issues or lack of entitlement issues, or the merits thereof.

PennLaw16
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Re: B,B-,B- at Penn

Postby PennLaw16 » Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:29 am

I've got to say, I am surprised that 29% of the class doesn't incur any debt at all. I expected loans to be about ~40k per year for the average student, and I knew there'd be a small percentage who just had the whole bill fronted. But 29%? Damn.

Little salty about that.

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mephistopheles
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Re: B,B-,B- at Penn

Postby mephistopheles » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:58 am

PennLaw16 wrote:I've got to say, I am surprised that 29% of the class doesn't incur any debt at all. I expected loans to be about ~40k per year for the average student, and I knew there'd be a small percentage who just had the whole bill fronted. But 29%? Damn.

Little salty about that.



SOO salty about that.

merica!
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Re: B,B-,B- at Penn

Postby merica! » Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:41 pm

29% wow!

Well I personally don't know anyone who is here without loans. All my friends have ranging from 25k a year to 75k a year.

Anyway listen OP, its going to suck real bad. No one is going to care period. I feel for you been there and still am there myself. Best advice is don't make law school your life. Read, do your work, outline etc. But don't do it in the library and don't go to bar review. Get a life outside of school, with non law students, come to school for class only. Reading period - STAY AWAY!
Then come for the finals well prepared but without the pressure of being around everyone else for the past 4 months, and ace it.

sighsigh
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Re: B,B-,B- at Penn

Postby sighsigh » Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:55 pm

PennLaw16 wrote:http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/grad-debt-rankings/page+3

Average indebtedness of a graduating law school student from University of Pennsylvania is $118,000. And that only measures the law school students who actually incurred debt. 29% of law school grads from UPenn didn't incur debt at all.


I would take those figures with a grain of salt. Campos did an analysis of the reported average debt CLS students have upon graduation, which was 133k for the c/o 2011.

Cliffs: 23% of that class graduated debt-free. However, only 50% of the class got any aid at all (a median grant of 13.2k), barely 10% of the class paid less than half tuition, and only 1.6% got full tuition scholarships. His conclusion? There's a bunch of kids with rich parents paying off their debt and skewing the average. He guesses that the median incurred debt for CLS students from just law school is 265k, about double the average.

--LinkRemoved--

PennLaw16
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Re: B,B-,B- at Penn

Postby PennLaw16 » Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:20 pm

That's not really an analysis. He didn't actually provide any inspection into the numbers. He also for some reason assumed that the spectrum of familial contribution is bimodal -- basically, you're either getting nearly all of your tuition paid for by your family, or none of it. I would imagine the truth is a bit less extreme.

And I don't know what numbers he was using, but the numbers I posted purport to exclude the students who don't incur debt. In other words, the 118k average applies only to the 71% who actually graduate with debt.

So if you incorporate the 29% who graduate without debt, the average debt drops to ~84k per student. That would put the maximum possible median at about $170k in debt, with the bottom 29% each taking $0 in debt and the 30-49% each taking $1 in debt (just to bump them out of the not-incurring-debt category). Obviously that is ridiculous -- the true median must be far lower.

But regardless, the point is that there's no reason to believe the numbers are skewed when the 29% not incurring debt are excluded. If anything, I would say their exclusion skews the numbers. 29% is not an outlier -- that's nearly a third of the class.

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Nelson
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Re: B,B-,B- at Penn

Postby Nelson » Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:39 pm

sighsigh wrote:
PennLaw16 wrote:http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/grad-debt-rankings/page+3

Average indebtedness of a graduating law school student from University of Pennsylvania is $118,000. And that only measures the law school students who actually incurred debt. 29% of law school grads from UPenn didn't incur debt at all.


I would take those figures with a grain of salt. Campos did an analysis of the reported average debt CLS students have upon graduation, which was 133k for the c/o 2011.

Cliffs: 23% of that class graduated debt-free. However, only 50% of the class got any aid at all (a median grant of 13.2k), barely 10% of the class paid less than half tuition, and only 1.6% got full tuition scholarships. His conclusion? There's a bunch of kids with rich parents paying off their debt and skewing the average. He guesses that the median incurred debt for CLS students from just law school is 265k, about double the average.

--LinkRemoved--

That post is classic Campos: jumping to conclusions all over the place making authoritative pronouncements with nothing to back it up. You can pick holes all through it if you use your brain for 5 seconds.




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