Do most people hate law school?

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Do most people hate law school?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:31 am

In addition to what Nelson said, the thing that gets 2L's is the 180 degree difference in expectations. 1L probably won't be as bad as you expect if you've read 1L or just talk to a few lawyers. But then you hear 2L is this utopia where no one ever has to do any work. And then those first few pages of reading get assigned and you have a few hours of journal work to do and you feel overwhelmed, even though the grade pressure is off and you're not actually doing much of anything.

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ph14
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Re: Do most people hate law school?

Postby ph14 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:36 am

Not surprisingly, Justice Scalia is on-point:

Crimson wrote:For his part, Scalia admits to spending much of his time at the Law School studying.

“I do not look back at my years at Harvard Law School with great warmth,” he said. “I look back at them with great appreciation. I worked like hell. I didn’t spend a whole lot of time enjoying myself.”

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Nelson
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Re: Do most people hate law school?

Postby Nelson » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:37 am

Tiago Splitter wrote: But then you hear 2L is this utopia where no one ever has to do any work. And then those first few pages of reading get assigned and you have a few hours of journal work to do and you feel overwhelmed, even though the grade pressure is off and you're not actually doing much of anything.

This is 100% credited.

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ph14
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Re: Do most people hate law school?

Postby ph14 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:39 am

Nelson wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote: But then you hear 2L is this utopia where no one ever has to do any work. And then those first few pages of reading get assigned and you have a few hours of journal work to do and you feel overwhelmed, even though the grade pressure is off and you're not actually doing much of anything.

This is 100% credited.


Yep. 2L might have been the most work out of all 3 years of law school, as I was also working on clerkship applications (and all the related things to that) and journal in addition to classes. Though 1L was no piece of cake either.

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sd5289
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Re: Do most people hate law school?

Postby sd5289 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:40 am

No, I don't hate it.

I had a really hard time coming back to it because my 1L summer job was amazing (prosecutor's office) and I just wanted to stay there and keep doing what I was doing with responding to motions, going to trial, standing in arraignments, etc.

2L was more of a shock than I thought it would be. I was one of the "lucky" ones in that my 1L grades elevated me to that coveted top 15% of the class, which gave me the distinct pleasure of turning down law review because, fuck no.

3L is shaping up to be the biggest waste of time ever. I only need to knock out two classes to finish with my requirements. I have no idea how I'll fill out the minimum credit requirement.

All in all, no I don't hate it. It most likely helps that I did well and got the 1L and 2L jerbs I absolutely wanted. But I'm definitely ready to be done and back in the working world.

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ph14
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Re: Do most people hate law school?

Postby ph14 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:41 am

sd5289 wrote:No, I don't hate it.

I had a really hard time coming back to it because my 1L summer job was amazing (prosecutor's office) and I just wanted to stay there and keep doing what I was doing with responding to motions, going to trial, standing in arraignments, etc.

2L was more of a shock than I thought it would be. I was one of the "lucky" ones in that my 1L grades elevated me to that coveted top 15% of the class, which gave me the distinct pleasure of turning down law review because, fuck no.

3L is shaping up to be the biggest waste of time ever. I only need to knock out two classes to finish with my requirements. I have no idea how I'll fill out the minimum credit requirement.

All in all, no I don't hate it. It most likely helps that I did well and got the 1L and 2L jerbs I absolutely wanted. But I'm definitely ready to be done and back in the working world.


Yep. Coming back after a 2L job which you are likely to go to after graduation (or something similar) is kind of strange.

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sd5289
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Re: Do most people hate law school?

Postby sd5289 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:45 am

ph14 wrote:
sd5289 wrote:No, I don't hate it.

I had a really hard time coming back to it because my 1L summer job was amazing (prosecutor's office) and I just wanted to stay there and keep doing what I was doing with responding to motions, going to trial, standing in arraignments, etc.

2L was more of a shock than I thought it would be. I was one of the "lucky" ones in that my 1L grades elevated me to that coveted top 15% of the class, which gave me the distinct pleasure of turning down law review because, fuck no.

3L is shaping up to be the biggest waste of time ever. I only need to knock out two classes to finish with my requirements. I have no idea how I'll fill out the minimum credit requirement.

All in all, no I don't hate it. It most likely helps that I did well and got the 1L and 2L jerbs I absolutely wanted. But I'm definitely ready to be done and back in the working world.


Yep. Coming back after a 2L job which you are likely to go to after graduation (or something similar) is kind of strange.


Agreed.

They hire a class of 50 per year, and in my 1L year, there were only nine 1L's. So there's a disjointed process where we call back in our 2L summer year to arrange our guaranteed first round interview. There's generally not the amount of disjointed time as there is for those of us who got those positions as 1L's. I'm not complaining by any means. It's a guaranteed first round. It just really sucked to go back to cold calls and class work after spending a summer doing the work you want to do for the foreseeable future.

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fltanglab
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Re: Do most people hate law school?

Postby fltanglab » Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:52 pm

ph14 wrote:
Nelson wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote: But then you hear 2L is this utopia where no one ever has to do any work. And then those first few pages of reading get assigned and you have a few hours of journal work to do and you feel overwhelmed, even though the grade pressure is off and you're not actually doing much of anything.

This is 100% credited.


Yep. 2L might have been the most work out of all 3 years of law school, as I was also working on clerkship applications (and all the related things to that) and journal in addition to classes. Though 1L was no piece of cake either.


Yes, I think this is generally what I was getting at with my post. As a 1L, you don't hold leadership positions in any extracurriculars, and everyone is catering to your schedule (at least at my school it's like this). You're not on a journal and most 1Ls don't have internships. I also did the bulk of my applying for 1L summer over winter break and was hired by the end of January (I also did mostly phone interviews, although I consolidated 10-15 interviews into three weeks to minimize travel problems). As a 2L it's easy to suddenly take on too much and OCI runs into the first part of the first semester, so you're behind from the beginning. When I was a 1L I had early classes, studied right afterwards, and went to networking events in the evenings. My days were easier to manage. Now things randomly come up and I get journal assignments somewhat irregularly, all while trying to write this note. I'm sure despite everything I look generally more relaxed than a 1L because I don't have to worry about whether I'll be employed, so big picture I have less pressure and I've done the whole class/finals thing before.

Also clerkship apps caused some recent stress unexpectedly, to second ph14. I don't know if I have exceptional time management skills. I'll admit it's possible and it wouldn't be the first time I've heard that said. :shrug:

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smaug_
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Re: Do most people hate law school?

Postby smaug_ » Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:55 pm

jbagelboy wrote:This is basically the opposite of what Ive heard. 2L and 3L seem way happier/more relaxed than 1L

ETA: unless you want to clerk


Clerkship gunning/not clerkship gunning isn't the determining factor as much as heavily involved with student groups/journal or not as involved. 2L is (often) less stressful but I have less free time to do nothing and am less social than I was during 1L.

Also, some people get strange after EIP.

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wiz
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Re: Do most people hate law school?

Postby wiz » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:00 pm

smaug wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:This is basically the opposite of what Ive heard. 2L and 3L seem way happier/more relaxed than 1L

ETA: unless you want to clerk


Clerkship gunning/not clerkship gunning isn't the determining factor as much as heavily involved with student groups/journal or not as involved. 2L is (often) less stressful but I have less free time to do nothing and am less social than I was during 1L.

Also, some people get strange after EIP.

It seems like a lot of people get strange, unfortunately. There are the V8ers who can't stop talking about how excited they are to summer at their V8 firm, and there are also the strikeouts who feel bitter and depressed around their V8 former friends.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Do most people hate law school?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:51 pm

I screwed myself by making this year a lot easier than it should have been. Makes 2L real comfortable but 3L is going to be a bit of a drag. I figure if the world ends before then I'll come out ahead on the deal.

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brotherdarkness
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Re: Do most people hate law school?

Postby brotherdarkness » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:54 pm

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wiz
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Re: Do most people hate law school?

Postby wiz » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:59 pm

brotherdarkness wrote:
wiz wrote:It seems like a lot of people get strange, unfortunately. There are the V8ers who can't stop talking about how excited they are to summer at their V8 firm, and there are also the strikeouts who feel bitter and depressed around their V8 former friends.


Egregious anti-Kirkland/Latham poast.

Tiago Splitter wrote:I screwed myself by making this year a lot easier than it should have been. Makes 2L real comfortable but 3L is going to be a bit of a drag. I figure if the world ends before then I'll come out ahead on the deal.


I'm in the same boat as you. I'm going to have full loads both semesters of 3L, and I've got a lot of "real" classes that I'm going to need to take (securities, M&A, anti-trust, etc.). Maybe the zombie apocalypse will save me.


Future-me is always better equipped to handle these problems than current-me.

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Re: Do most people hate law school?

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:00 pm

brotherdarkness wrote:
wiz wrote:It seems like a lot of people get strange, unfortunately. There are the V8ers who can't stop talking about how excited they are to summer at their V8 firm, and there are also the strikeouts who feel bitter and depressed around their V8 former friends.


Egregious anti-Kirkland/Latham poast.

Tiago Splitter wrote:I screwed myself by making this year a lot easier than it should have been. Makes 2L real comfortable but 3L is going to be a bit of a drag. I figure if the world ends before then I'll come out ahead on the deal.


I'm in the same boat as you. I'm going to have full loads both semesters of 3L, and I've got a lot of "real" classes that I'm going to need to take (securities, M&A, anti-trust, etc.). Maybe the zombie apocalypse will save me.


Do people actually care about vault rankings within the top 40-50 firms? Doesn't seem like Milbank and Cadwalader are all that lacking in prestige relative to White & Case or Jones Day. Hard to believe people would base their self-worth on such distinctions. Just having any one of those jobs is a huge deal

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Re: Do most people hate law school?

Postby shifty_eyed » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:03 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
brotherdarkness wrote:
wiz wrote:It seems like a lot of people get strange, unfortunately. There are the V8ers who can't stop talking about how excited they are to summer at their V8 firm, and there are also the strikeouts who feel bitter and depressed around their V8 former friends.


Egregious anti-Kirkland/Latham poast.

Tiago Splitter wrote:I screwed myself by making this year a lot easier than it should have been. Makes 2L real comfortable but 3L is going to be a bit of a drag. I figure if the world ends before then I'll come out ahead on the deal.


I'm in the same boat as you. I'm going to have full loads both semesters of 3L, and I've got a lot of "real" classes that I'm going to need to take (securities, M&A, anti-trust, etc.). Maybe the zombie apocalypse will save me.


Do people actually care about vault rankings within the top 40-50 firms? Doesn't seem like Milbank and Cadwalader are all that lacking in prestige relative to White & Case or Jones Day. Hard to believe people would base their self-worth on such distinctions. Just having any one of those jobs is a huge deal

It's why most people hate law students.

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brotherdarkness
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Re: Do most people hate law school?

Postby brotherdarkness » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:04 pm

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Do most people hate law school?

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:18 pm

brotherdarkness wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Do people actually care about vault rankings within the top 40-50 firms? Doesn't seem like Milbank and Cadwalader are all that lacking in prestige relative to White & Case or Jones Day. Hard to believe people would base their self-worth on such distinctions. Just having any one of those jobs is a huge deal


We're talking about law students here.

ETA: scooped


"But they're ranked second!" whimpered the striver turning down hundreds of thousands of BSF dollars to go to Cravath, where they'll treat him worse and he'll have no chance of making partner.

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brotherdarkness
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Re: Do most people hate law school?

Postby brotherdarkness » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:19 pm

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smaug_
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Re: Do most people hate law school?

Postby smaug_ » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:21 pm

jbagelboy wrote:Do people actually care about vault rankings within the top 40-50 firms? Doesn't seem like Milbank and Cadwalader are all that lacking in prestige relative to White & Case or Jones Day. Hard to believe people would base their self-worth on such distinctions. Just having any one of those jobs is a huge deal


people do vaguely care but the v8 thing was a joke

Also, mono, you're a great guy but I'd avoid getting smug or making judgements about anyone/any situation. Cravath might be Cravath bro's only offer.

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patogordo
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Re: Do most people hate law school?

Postby patogordo » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:24 pm

also my impression of BSF was that it would be a great place to work much in the way that i imagine Jonestown was a tropical paradise

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Do most people hate law school?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:27 pm

smaug wrote:Cravath might be Cravath bro's only offer.

+1. OCI is weird.

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wiz
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Re: Do most people hate law school?

Postby wiz » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:30 pm

smaug wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Do people actually care about vault rankings within the top 40-50 firms? Doesn't seem like Milbank and Cadwalader are all that lacking in prestige relative to White & Case or Jones Day. Hard to believe people would base their self-worth on such distinctions. Just having any one of those jobs is a huge deal


people do vaguely care but the v8 thing was a joke

Also, mono, you're a great guy but I'd avoid getting smug or making judgements about anyone/any situation. Cravath might be Cravath bro's only offer.


Yeah, there are plenty of people who cop only one offer but that offer happens to be from a V5. Not every Cravath bro had the option to laugh at and turn down BSF. Legal hiring is a pretty weird/unpredictable process.

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chem!
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Re: Do most people hate law school?

Postby chem! » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:35 pm

patogordo wrote:also my impression of BSF was that it would be a great place to work much in the way that i imagine Jonestown was a tropical paradise

Thanks. Now I have this song stuck in my head.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: Do most people hate law school?

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:36 pm

patogordo wrote:also my impression of BSF was that it would be a great place to work much in the way that i imagine Jonestown was a tropical paradise


Being in the office Friday at 11 PM probably is never fun, but clearing $500k at 32 probably helps.

Also, obviously not everyone gets the chance to turn down them $$$ for dat preftige--just a general comment that law students will forever be ranking-obsessed, sometimes to their detriment.

Although if Cravath is your only offer, it seems like you'd have to be particularly unlucky with a particularly aggressive bidlist.

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Re: Do most people hate law school?

Postby brotherdarkness » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:39 pm

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