Bottom 7% how is this possible?

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brotherdarkness
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Re: Bottom 7% how is this possible?

Postby brotherdarkness » Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:43 pm

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Last edited by brotherdarkness on Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

NYstate
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Re: Bottom 7% how is this possible?

Postby NYstate » Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:49 pm

minnbills wrote:These people saying you can't be successful as a lawyer are full of shit. Don't let anyone on here tell you what you can or can't do.

That said, the job search is going to be really tough, and dropping out is the safe choice. If you do decide to stay, load up on as much practical experience as possible, and try to game the curve to make your grades more respectable.

Since you have no debt, it is NBD to walk away now.


[And Sparty99 and anyone else as well]
That was me. What type of job is OP looking at and what will the search be like? Honest question, i assumed the bottom 10% is going to have an almost impossible time finding anything. Your opinion and experience is much more valuable than mine.

I see OP struggling to get through school and struggling to find any job. My advice is based on that view. I'm willing to admit to being wrong that OP will never have a career.

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guano
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Re: Bottom 7% how is this possible?

Postby guano » Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:18 pm

brotherdarkness wrote:
LexLeon wrote:Employers might be more impressed by a shift from the bottom 10% to the top 10% than they would be by merely good, but consistent, grades.


I can't possibly imagine this being true, but I'm not a hiring partner.

I have gotten word directly from recruiters that if your grades are vastly different and there was a logical reason for the bad semester, they will take it into account. You're still on the wrong sude of a tie breaker, but if you can convey it correctly, some employers will consider it (some won't).

If you get all As next semester, add an addendum to your transcript. Some employers won't give a shit, but some will look at your good semester as being representative of your capabilities, then factor in the perceived likelyhood of your personal life affecting your work life in the future (was it a one-off issue? Is this crap likely to happen often?)

But, if your next senester's grades aren't spectacular, you be fucked

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BlueLotus
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Re: Bottom 7% how is this possible?

Postby BlueLotus » Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:22 pm

brotherdarkness wrote:
minnbills wrote:These people saying you can't be successful as a lawyer are full of shit. Don't let anyone on here tell you what you can or can't do.

That said, the job search is going to be really tough, and dropping out is the safe choice. If you do decide to stay, load up on as much practical experience as possible, and try to game the curve to make your grades more respectable.

Since you have no debt, it is NBD to walk away now.


Image


"gaming the curve" is not possible until 2LOL (i.e. loading up on seminars/practicum classes)

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stillwater
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Re: Bottom 7% how is this possible?

Postby stillwater » Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:22 pm

brotherdarkness wrote:
LexLeon wrote:Employers might be more impressed by a shift from the bottom 10% to the top 10% than they would be by merely good, but consistent, grades.


I can't possibly imagine this being true, but I'm not a hiring partner.


That's because its a laughable assertion.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Bottom 7% how is this possible?

Postby Bildungsroman » Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:34 pm

guano wrote:
brotherdarkness wrote:
LexLeon wrote:Employers might be more impressed by a shift from the bottom 10% to the top 10% than they would be by merely good, but consistent, grades.


I can't possibly imagine this being true, but I'm not a hiring partner.

I have gotten word directly from recruiters that if your grades are vastly different and there was a logical reason for the bad semester, they will take it into account. You're still on the wrong sude of a tie breaker, but if you can convey it correctly, some employers will consider it (some won't).

If you get all As next semester, add an addendum to your transcript. Some employers won't give a shit, but some will look at your good semester as being representative of your capabilities, then factor in the perceived likelyhood of your personal life affecting your work life in the future (was it a one-off issue? Is this crap likely to happen often?)

But, if your next senester's grades aren't spectacular, you be fucked

OP should probably ignore advice on legal hiring from somebody who dropped out of law school.

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yeslekkkk
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Re: Bottom 7% how is this possible?

Postby yeslekkkk » Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:46 pm

The first thing you need to do is TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF. My guess is that the issues that were affecting you, as a person and as a law student, are still there. Two or three weeks over Christmas was probably not enough to work through everything. Maybe taking a leave of absence or dropping out for a semester would be worthwhile. You could start again in Fall or come back next Spring. (I'm not sure how this works) I bet you need some time though. Maybe when you're back on track, your efforts as a law student will be more fruitful.

09042014
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Re: Bottom 7% how is this possible?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:49 pm

Also, being a lawyer blows. There are way better careers. Start a business.

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PepperJack
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Re: Bottom 7% how is this possible?

Postby PepperJack » Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:07 pm

Those are legitimate issues. It's easy to say one's grades wouldn't change from them if they happened early on, but a fall 1L is very unstable because of the overhyped stress. Big law hiring is rough, but exam taking isn't rocket science or an inherent trait that can't be developed. I would suggest a tutor or something, if you stayed.

It's A Lion
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Re: Bottom 7% how is this possible?

Postby It's A Lion » Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:42 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Also, being a lawyer blows. There are way better careers. Start a business.


There are so many garages available out there!

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sd5289
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Re: Bottom 7% how is this possible?

Postby sd5289 » Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:50 pm

NYstate wrote:That was me. What type of job is OP looking at and what will the search be like? Honest question, i assumed the bottom 10% is going to have an almost impossible time finding anything. Your opinion and experience is much more valuable than mine.

I see OP struggling to get through school and struggling to find any job. My advice is based on that view. I'm willing to admit to being wrong that OP will never have a career.


This is ACR (a version of "TCR").

I think everyone's pessimism in this thread is warranted because remember, bottom "7%" (didn't know schools calculated it that exactly). It will take a LOT to get out of that hole, but it's not entirely impossible.

sparty99
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Re: Bottom 7% how is this possible?

Postby sparty99 » Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:46 am

NYstate wrote:
minnbills wrote:These people saying you can't be successful as a lawyer are full of shit. Don't let anyone on here tell you what you can or can't do.

That said, the job search is going to be really tough, and dropping out is the safe choice. If you do decide to stay, load up on as much practical experience as possible, and try to game the curve to make your grades more respectable.

Since you have no debt, it is NBD to walk away now.


[And Sparty99 and anyone else as well]
That was me. What type of job is OP looking at and what will the search be like? Honest question, i assumed the bottom 10% is going to have an almost impossible time finding anything. Your opinion and experience is much more valuable than mine.

I see OP struggling to get through school and struggling to find any job. My advice is based on that view. I'm willing to admit to being wrong that OP will never have a career.


I'm bottom 20-30% or so. I have received interviews at Attorney General offices. One federal government honors agency. Also got a JAG interview. I had a firm interview as well. But they did not see my transcript. It was one of those career fair/cattle calls. My transcript doesn't list my gpa/class rank. OP's search will be no different then any other law student who didn't get big law. You can't be picky, must stay in contact with people you meet, etc. If you go to a Top 20%, perhaps consider getting a JD/MBA. It appears you do well on standarized tests if you had a high LSAT.

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MistakenGenius
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Postby MistakenGenius » Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:13 am

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PepperJack
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Re: Bottom 7% how is this possible?

Postby PepperJack » Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:55 am

sparty99 wrote:
NYstate wrote:
minnbills wrote:These people saying you can't be successful as a lawyer are full of shit. Don't let anyone on here tell you what you can or can't do.

That said, the job search is going to be really tough, and dropping out is the safe choice. If you do decide to stay, load up on as much practical experience as possible, and try to game the curve to make your grades more respectable.

Since you have no debt, it is NBD to walk away now.


[And Sparty99 and anyone else as well]
That was me. What type of job is OP looking at and what will the search be like? Honest question, i assumed the bottom 10% is going to have an almost impossible time finding anything. Your opinion and experience is much more valuable than mine.

I see OP struggling to get through school and struggling to find any job. My advice is based on that view. I'm willing to admit to being wrong that OP will never have a career.


I'm bottom 20-30% or so. I have received interviews at Attorney General offices. One federal government honors agency. Also got a JAG interview. I had a firm interview as well. But they did not see my transcript. It was one of those career fair/cattle calls. My transcript doesn't list my gpa/class rank. OP's search will be no different then any other law student who didn't get big law. You can't be picky, must stay in contact with people you meet, etc. If you go to a Top 20%, perhaps consider getting a JD/MBA. It appears you do well on standarized tests if you had a high LSAT.

With all due respect, I think everyone gets an interview with JAG. I think many government and attorney general job positions are more resume centered, but do not know. However, assuming you didn't land anything, has law school been a good bet so far? Not if you're not paying sticker. Clearly you could counteract that, but not knowing OP, all we can assume is he is RANDOM LAW STUDENT A. For him, your situation is not really enviable. If debt is low, he really wants to be a lawyer and the other alternatives aren't great it may be worth sticking around.

50k is not that much debt to have a t-20 law degree. Big law is probably out, but not 100%. OP can graduate with a respectable GPA. Different people "get it" at different stages. If OP had six figure debt, I would say definitely walk away because the options are so limited. However, 500/month repayment if OP can find a viable way to use the degree isn't the end of the world.

But nobody should be stunned by poor grades at a top school. If someone is smart enough to break 165 on the LSAT, graduate college with a strong GPA and be told much of their future livelihood will be based on your performance on a few exams, you have to bet many of those exams will be damn good.

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cinephile
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Re: Bottom 7% how is this possible?

Postby cinephile » Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:12 am

I would absolutely drop out. Your counselor who is trying to convince you to stay doesn't give a damn about you. All they want is your money. Now is the optimal time to drop out and move on with your life while you still have very little invested. The longer you stay, the worse it will be. I have never known anyone who regretted dropping out but there are dozens of people from my section who openly express their regret that they DIDN'T drop out. They wish they had.

NYstate
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Re: Bottom 7% how is this possible?

Postby NYstate » Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:02 am

cinephile wrote:I would absolutely drop out. Your counselor who is trying to convince you to stay doesn't give a damn about you. All they want is your money. Now is the optimal time to drop out and move on with your life while you still have very little invested. The longer you stay, the worse it will be. I have never known anyone who regretted dropping out but there are dozens of people from my section who openly express their regret that they DIDN'T drop out. They wish they had.

I agree this. The counselor a job is to get you to stay in school.


OP you should drop out. Maybe you could theoretically cobble together a career of some kind, but I would read the Vale of Tears thread - which is stickied in the employment forum- to see the difficulty people face and the emotional toll it costs in the job search. You sound like someone who beats themselves up, I can see the job search taking a terrible toll on you.

I also don't see much hope for your grades to improve. The fantasy that you will somehow magically reverse course is never going to happen.

You really should drop out and find a different career path.

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PepperJack
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Re: Bottom 7% how is this possible?

Postby PepperJack » Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:54 am

NYstate wrote:
cinephile wrote:I would absolutely drop out. Your counselor who is trying to convince you to stay doesn't give a damn about you. All they want is your money. Now is the optimal time to drop out and move on with your life while you still have very little invested. The longer you stay, the worse it will be. I have never known anyone who regretted dropping out but there are dozens of people from my section who openly express their regret that they DIDN'T drop out. They wish they had.

I agree this. The counselor a job is to get you to stay in school.


OP you should drop out. Maybe you could theoretically cobble together a career of some kind, but I would read the Vale of Tears thread - which is stickied in the employment forum- to see the difficulty people face and the emotional toll it costs in the job search. You sound like someone who beats themselves up, I can see the job search taking a terrible toll on you.

I also don't see much hope for your grades to improve. The fantasy that you will somehow magically reverse course is never going to happen.

You really should drop out and find a different career path.

This is a little too cynical. OP's grades can improve, particularly if he focuses on the tests from day one and doesn't have more out of school issues. The problem is how well he'd need to do. Jumping to top 10% for the spring is really difficult, because the top end of the curve is normally composed of the same people.

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worldtraveler
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Re: Bottom 7% how is this possible?

Postby worldtraveler » Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:05 pm

I think it all depends on what you want to do. If you wanted to be a public defender, you still have a shot at that. If your heart is set on a firm or the federal government, then you are probably done for.

I've gone through PTSD and I know how much it can mess with you. If you really, truly did have PTSD, start seeing a counselor and you may actually be able to get a medical waiver to retroactively withdraw from fall courses. It's really a long shot but if you were actually displaying PTSD symptoms during the semester and had it verified by a professional, it has happened before and worth a shot. It may have a 5% chance of success, but you don't know until you try.

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BlueLotus
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Re: Bottom 7% how is this possible?

Postby BlueLotus » Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:46 pm

worldtraveler wrote:I think it all depends on what you want to do. If you wanted to be a public defender, you still have a shot at that. If your heart is set on a firm or the federal government, then you are probably done for.

I've gone through PTSD and I know how much it can mess with you. If you really, truly did have PTSD, start seeing a counselor and you may actually be able to get a medical waiver to retroactively withdraw from fall courses. It's really a long shot but if you were actually displaying PTSD symptoms during the semester and had it verified by a professional, it has happened before and worth a shot. It may have a 5% chance of success, but you don't know until you try.


+1. In addition to PD which worldtraveler mentioned, you still have a shot at Legal Aid, but I must add that you should be gunning for these from day 1 and that such positions are NOT backup plans for OCI strikeouts. Hopefully your T20 sponsors fellowships (if you do decide to stay).

Whatever you do, GL. This must be a very difficult dilemma. :|

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rpupkin
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Re: Bottom 7% how is this possible?

Postby rpupkin » Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:08 pm

I think the conventional wisdom in this thread is mostly right (i.e., you should seriously consider dropping out), but I'll add some qualifying thoughts.

In another thread, someone with a similar dilemma--bottom of the class at a T20 after first semester--asked the same question. Nearly everyone agreed that he should drop out of school immediately. That poster, though, hated law school and didn't know if he wanted to be a lawyer. He definitely should drop out. You, on the other hand, actually seem to like law school and want to be a lawyer. That counts for something. It doesn't necessarily mean that you should remain in law school, but it matters.

I know two people who graduated in the bottom half of TTTs and ended up ok. Their stories are similar. Neither could find paid legal work until they passed their state's bar exam. Once they passed the bar exam--which, you should be advised, is no sure thing if you're getting bottom 10% grades--they got jobs with small firms in big cities. One guy joined a one-man shop that did mixed civil litigation. The other guy joined a very small firm (four lawyers, I think) that did employment law, among other things. Both worked for near-nothing when starting; I think they were making somewhere in the range of $30K-$40K. They were doing what people around here call "shitlaw."

Both got a lot of litigation experience right away. Three years later, the guy who joined the one-man shop is still there and making over $100k. (He's really valuable to the practice and the principal lawyer has to keep paying him more to keep him from leaving). The other guy left the small firm and recently got hired at a mid-size firm. He's making close to $100K. They both really like what they do and neither regrets going to law school.

Why am I sharing this? Two reasons. First, people who graduate with lousy grades from far worse schools than yours can end up working as lawyers. I don't agree with those who say it is likely that you will never practice law--that is nonsense. BUT....and this is the second reason....a "successful" legal career for you might require long periods of unemployment and uncertainty, followed by possibly years of low-paying work. Are you willing to put up with that possibility for the sake of being a lawyer? Think hard about that question.

Good luck. And, if you've got a scholarship (or if your expenses are otherwise paid for), I'd stick with it for spring semester. Another four months of school is not going to ruin your life, and it will give you time to think.

Wearthewildthingsr
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Re: Bottom 7% how is this possible?

Postby Wearthewildthingsr » Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:10 pm

Man so sorry to hear that. Care to share what your professors thought about your law exams?

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thesealocust
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Re: Bottom 7% how is this possible?

Postby thesealocust » Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:31 pm

If at first you don't succeed, quit and don't admit to trying.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=175022

Mr. Carter
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Re: Bottom 7% how is this possible?

Postby Mr. Carter » Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:41 pm

Regardless of your grades, when considering giving up completely on this career path, you should be asking yourself whether you really want to be a lawyer. If, as you seemed to hint in your original post, you are truly attracted to this career path, and know that it is what you want to do with your life, you should not allow one semester of poor grades to get in the way.

Because our careers are in their infancy, and because we know how volatile the legal job market is, we, as law students, are prone to interpreting every setback as utter calamity. In the mind of a law student, poor first semester 1L grades trigger reactions like, "Oh my gosh! My life is over! I have to drop out immediately!" But trust me, one semester of poor grades in law school is not the end, if you don't make it the end. Try to look at it in perspective: it's just one semester of one year of law school, which is just one of many stages in your career.

Sure, it sucks that you underachieved in your first semester. And sure, sometimes it's best to cut your losses. But are you really going to give up completely? If this is what you really want to do with your life, and you are willing to work through adversity, you will find your own unique path to success. Maybe because you don't have the grades for a biglaw job, you will end up interning at a plaintiff's PI firm, find your true calling, and become wildly successful in that field. Maybe this experience will force you to develop your networking skills, and you will get your dream job somewhere down the line as a result. Maybe what today seems like a huge setback, will end up being your biggest asset when its all said and done.

Try to remember that life is a journey, and that there are always going to be bumps along the way. Nobody goes through life without setbacks. Nobody goes through life without adversity. It is those of us who use that adversity to our benefit who are able to find success.

And after all, you are at a great school with no debt. That's a wonderful spot to be in and that situation didn't go away with your first semester grades. You still have it better than a ton of law students out there. If you had poor grades from a TTT with full loans, then sure, the most prudent thing may be to drop out. But, in my opinion, dropping out now would be the cowardly thing to do (assuming you truly want to be a lawyer).

Please, I urge you, before you drop out, talk to someone older, who has had a long career and has some perspective. While the opinions of other law students are certainly valuable, I think it would be even more valuable to consider the opinion of someone who has gone through adversity in his or her career and can help you put your poor first semester into perspective.

Maybe law isn't for you. Maybe this experience has taught you that you are not on the right path, and are not pursuing the career that is right for you. If this is the case, then sure, drop out. But from your initial comments it seems like a career in law is something that you do really want. If this is the case, then don't give up! Just try to keep this semester in perspective, buck up, stay optimistic, learn from your mistakes, fight through this setback, and you'll be better for it.

Best of luck!

rad lulz
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Re: Bottom 7% how is this possible?

Postby rad lulz » Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:52 pm

[quote="Mrk
Last edited by rad lulz on Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rpupkin
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Re: Bottom 7% how is this possible?

Postby rpupkin » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:04 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Don't talk to damn boomers who made bad grades back in the day

They have literally no idea what it's like to get a job now

But what if the older person works at a firm that hires young lawyers? Yeah, if the OP was just seeking autobiographical inspiration, then it would be silly to ask advice from someone who graduated law school 30+ years ago. But I don't see the harm in talking to an older lawyer who, say, works in a small firm in the city in which the OP's law school is located.


Lol @ maybe you'll have to develop networking skills

As if people with good grades from T20s also don't develop networking skills

Actually, people with good grades who get jobs through OCI often have piss-poor networking skills. They don't have to develop networking skills because they got their interviews (and jobs) by virtue of their 1L grades. People with shitty grades have to hustle and develop networking skills--they have no choice.


Because frankly even w decent grades from t20 you have a not insignificant chance of getting fucked

Yeah, and he also has a not insignificant chance of "getting fucked" if he drops out of law school and takes his chances in this shitty job market with his worthless humanities degree. If OP has a scholly and still has an interest in being a lawyer, he should think a bit before he follows the echo chamber advice on TLS.




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