Please Delete thread

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rpcb
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Please Delete thread

Postby rpcb » Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:55 pm

.
Last edited by rpcb on Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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goldeneye
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Re: below median after 1st semester at T20, may drop out

Postby goldeneye » Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:59 pm

Given your debt load and school rank, it's probably a wise thing to consider. Importantly, what would you do otherwise if you drop out? My bet is that it probably won't put you in crippling debt with little chance at a job.

BigZuck
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Re: below median after 1st semester at T20, may drop out

Postby BigZuck » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:17 pm

Dropping out seems to be the prudent decision, unless you are deadset on a job that, objectively speaking, you know you can get regardless of grades and that won't leave you crippled with debt. Given that that is highly unlikely, might as well just move on to something else. No shame in that.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: below median after 1st semester at T20, may drop out

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:38 pm

Sounds like you gave it a good run but like the majority of law students couldn't get the grades to make continuing beyond one semester a smart decision. Might as well cut your losses and move on now rather than throw good money (and time) after bad.

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thesealocust
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Re: below median after 1st semester at T20, may drop out

Postby thesealocust » Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:24 am

Drop out of law school.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=175022

rad lulz
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Re: below median after 1st semester at T20, may drop out

Postby rad lulz » Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:26 am

m
Last edited by rad lulz on Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mr.hands
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Re: below median after 1st semester at T20, may drop out

Postby mr.hands » Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:38 am

It's really tough to find any job if you're median at a T20.

To get back to median by the end of your 1L year, you will need a 4.1 in your second semester. Drop out.

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LexLeon
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Re: below median after 1st semester at T20, may drop out

Postby LexLeon » Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:14 pm

Contrary to what some people seem to believe, there's no straightforward formula that indicates whether one "should" drop out.

A mediocre first semester is not a death sentence; being above median for the next five semesters (far from an impossible goal) could lead you to graduate with a respectable GPA, or even honors. It's not like you're at a terrible school, either--somewhere within the T19 is actually quite excellent.

A 3.0 GPA (what you'd have after about one semester of 3.5) might be solid with respect to securing employment for those who come from your school, especially depending on where you'd like to work. (Talk to advisors or upperclassmen, and consult some websites that measure employment scores and geographic placement, to figure out the odds; you might also wish to consult some real attorneys, as opposed to the people who happen to be using this website and have not yet graduated.) Besides, nothing's to stop you from scoring 3.7's or better from here on out (though some ignorant people might try to convince you that your first semester grades somehow, necessarily, limit your potential during future semesters).

If you enjoy law school (as you've indicated you do), give serious thought to continuing but also doing your best to get better grades. In my opinion, whether you should continue is a matter of whether, after careful reflection and deep meditation or prayer over some time, you deeply feel that you should not continue. Don't let sheer grades or projected debt (or ignorant comments about these, for that matter) scare you away: Some of the most successful legal scholars and judges have also gotten poor grades; and even a relatively low paying job (~$60,000, still quite good) could pay off $100k before middle age.

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thesealocust
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Re: below median after 1st semester at T20, may drop out

Postby thesealocust » Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:20 pm

LexLeon wrote:Contrary to what some people seem to believe, there's no straightforward formula that indicates whether one "should" drop out.

A mediocre first semester is not a death sentence; being above median for the next five semesters (far from an impossible goal) could lead you to graduate with a respectable GPA, or even honors. It's not like you're at a terrible school, either--somewhere within the T19 is actually quite excellent.

A 3.0 GPA (what you'd have after about one semester of 3.5) might be solid with respect to securing employment for those who come from your school, especially depending on where you'd like to work. (Talk to advisors or upperclassmen, and consult some websites that measure employment scores and geographic placement, to figure out the odds; you might also wish to consult some real attorneys, as opposed to the people who happen to be using this website and have not yet graduated.) Besides, nothing's to stop you from scoring 3.7's or better from here on out (though some ignorant people might try to convince you that your first semester grades somehow, necessarily, limit your potential during future semesters).

If you enjoy law school (as you've indicated you do), give serious thought to continuing but also doing your best to get better grades. In my opinion, whether you should continue is a matter of whether, after careful reflection and deep meditation or prayer over some time, you deeply feel that you should not continue. Don't let sheer grades or projected debt (or ignorant comments about these, for that matter) scare you away: Some of the most successful legal scholars and judges have also gotten poor grades; and even a relatively low paying job (~$60,000, still quite good) could pay off $100k before middle age.


Image

OP is utterly fucked and needs to drop out of law school immediately. Law school is a systematic scam that often damages people's lives, and it's important to be realistic about potential outcomes. Pretending things can be better by trying hard, getting lucky, or really wanting it adds insult to injury.

(1) There is no law school in the U.S. where a 3.0 GPA is "solid" with respect to securing employment. Period.

(2) There is nothing to stop OP from getting 3.7s from here on out just like there is nothing stopping the people who got 3.7s from getting below median from here on out. Law school is curved, the only way to improve performance is to do so at the expense of others. Welcome to thunderdome. It is utterly unrealistic to tell people who do poorly that doing well in the future is the solution, because we know with mathematical certainty that on average class performance is going to be median no matter what happens. You're right that it's not impossible, but it's neither common nor something you can bank on.

(3) Every year about 15,000 people graduate without prospects for obtaining legal employment. Feel free to point to the small handful of the "most successful legal scholars and judges" who accomplished that despite getting poor grades, and please continue to enjoy the fantasy world you live in where statistics are meaningless when it comes to giving out advice.

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ScottRiqui
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Re: below median after 1st semester at T20, may drop out

Postby ScottRiqui » Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:32 pm

And LOL at telling OP that he has "the next five semesters" to get his grades right. If there's one thing I've learned from TLS, especially the "Vale of Tears" thread, it's that if you don't come out of 2L OCI with a job (which depends greatly on 1L grades), life gets really hard really fast.

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thesealocust
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Re: below median after 1st semester at T20, may drop out

Postby thesealocust » Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:34 pm

Just realized LexLeon is a troll; probably best just not to engage.

rad lulz
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Re: below median after 1st semester at T20, may drop out

Postby rad lulz » Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:45 pm

Alsom
Last edited by rad lulz on Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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worldtraveler
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Re: below median after 1st semester at T20, may drop out

Postby worldtraveler » Sat Jan 11, 2014 2:32 pm

What do you want to do? If you were planning on public interest, you're still okay. If you have your heart set on a firm, that ship has sailed.

rpcb
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Re: below median after 1st semester at T20, may drop out

Postby rpcb » Sat Jan 11, 2014 9:30 pm

worldtraveler wrote:What do you want to do? If you were planning on public interest, you're still okay. If you have your heart set on a firm, that ship has sailed.



I am pretty flexible. A firm job would have been amazing but I am open to other opportunities if they are there. As I said I have enjoyed my time at law school, but I am nervous about debt. I know about LRAP and IBR but I still just dont know if it is worth it. I still have not got my last grade back yet, but even if it an A- or above I still have an uphill battle.

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Magnifique1908
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Re: below median after 1st semester at T20, may drop out

Postby Magnifique1908 » Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:12 pm

rad lulz wrote:Also if you're at Vandy the median is closer to a 3.17 but I'd still drop out if you're around a 2 something

Actually if you've paid tuition maybe I'd give it one more go


I was guessing UT, where median is about 3.3

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Lockfast
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Re: below median after 1st semester at T20, may drop out

Postby Lockfast » Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:12 pm

rpcb wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:What do you want to do? If you were planning on public interest, you're still okay. If you have your heart set on a firm, that ship has sailed.



I am pretty flexible. A firm job would have been amazing but I am open to other opportunities if they are there. As I said I have enjoyed my time at law school, but I am nervous about debt. I know about LRAP and IBR but I still just dont know if it is worth it. I still have not got my last grade back yet, but even if it an A- or above I still have an uphill battle.


I don't know about that. Even some public interest jobs have gotten quite competitive (obviously not to the level of BigLaw).. GPA is a key distinguishing factor that employers can rely on when they are getting 500+ applications for a position overnight.

rpcb
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Re: below median after 1st semester at T20, may drop out

Postby rpcb » Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:22 pm

Lockfast wrote:
rpcb wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:What do you want to do? If you were planning on public interest, you're still okay. If you have your heart set on a firm, that ship has sailed.



I am pretty flexible. A firm job would have been amazing but I am open to other opportunities if they are there. As I said I have enjoyed my time at law school, but I am nervous about debt. I know about LRAP and IBR but I still just dont know if it is worth it. I still have not got my last grade back yet, but even if it an A- or above I still have an uphill battle.


I don't know about that. Even some public interest jobs have gotten quite competitive (obviously not to the level of BigLaw).. GPA is a key distinguishing factor that employers can rely on when they are getting 500+ applications for a position overnight.



I understand. If I was sure I could get a public interest job I would probably want to stay but I am not even sure I can get that.

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BlueLotus
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Re: below median after 1st semester at T20, may drop out

Postby BlueLotus » Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:35 pm

rpcb wrote:
Lockfast wrote:
rpcb wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:What do you want to do? If you were planning on public interest, you're still okay. If you have your heart set on a firm, that ship has sailed.



I am pretty flexible. A firm job would have been amazing but I am open to other opportunities if they are there. As I said I have enjoyed my time at law school, but I am nervous about debt. I know about LRAP and IBR but I still just dont know if it is worth it. I still have not got my last grade back yet, but even if it an A- or above I still have an uphill battle.


I don't know about that. Even some public interest jobs have gotten quite competitive (obviously not to the level of BigLaw).. GPA is a key distinguishing factor that employers can rely on when they are getting 500+ applications for a position overnight.



I understand. If I was sure I could get a public interest job I would probably want to stay but I am not even sure I can get that.


"Public interest" is a meaningless umbrella term that can constitute all sorts of things. What kind of PI jerb interests you? For some you're utterly f*cked, for others no. Have any WE/connections?

rpcb
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Re: below median after 1st semester at T20, may drop out

Postby rpcb » Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:45 am

"Public interest" is a meaningless umbrella term that can constitute all sorts of things. What kind of PI jerb interests you? For some you're utterly f*cked, for others no. Have any WE/connections?[/quote]


Yeah...I worked for a political party in Florida for awhile and a lot of my buddies are still working for the party in some capacity. Its non legal but it is something. Any idea what type of PI jobs do you think I can still be competitive for? Honestly, I am willing to cast a wide net. DA, Public defender, ect...

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BlueLotus
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Re: below median after 1st semester at T20, may drop out

Postby BlueLotus » Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:49 am

rpcb wrote:
"Public interest" is a meaningless umbrella term that can constitute all sorts of things. What kind of PI jerb interests you? For some you're utterly f*cked, for others no. Have any WE/connections?



Yeah...I worked for a political party in Florida for awhile and a lot of my buddies are still working for the party in some capacity. Its non legal but it is something. Any idea what type of PI jobs do you think I can still be competitive for? Honestly, I am willing to cast a wide net. DA, Public defender, ect...[/quote]

Many PD/legal aid positions don't even ask for transcripts, even for postgrad. You must be gunning for them from day 1 though, and do everything you can to show commitment to public service (pro bono work, internships/externships, clinic, foreign language experience, etc.) PSLF positions are NOT back up plans for people who just missed the BigLawl boat.

rpcb
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Re: below median after 1st semester at T20, may drop out

Postby rpcb » Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:11 pm

BlueLotus wrote:
rpcb wrote:
"Public interest" is a meaningless umbrella term that can constitute all sorts of things. What kind of PI jerb interests you? For some you're utterly f*cked, for others no. Have any WE/connections?



Yeah...I worked for a political party in Florida for awhile and a lot of my buddies are still working for the party in some capacity. Its non legal but it is something. Any idea what type of PI jobs do you think I can still be competitive for? Honestly, I am willing to cast a wide net. DA, Public defender, ect...


Many PD/legal aid positions don't even ask for transcripts, even for postgrad. You must be gunning for them from day 1 though, and do everything you can to show commitment to public service (pro bono work, internships/externships, clinic, foreign language experience, etc.) PSLF positions are NOT back up plans for people who just missed the BigLawl boat.[/quote]


Thanks for the advice. If I do decide to stay this is probably what I will do. I will make my decision by the end of the week (because I will be able to recover tuition).

sparty99
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Re: below median after 1st semester at T20, may drop out

Postby sparty99 » Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:31 pm

You are screwed. There will be no big-law. There will be no government honors program. Grades will continue to matter, even for public interest. You are me in two years. Below-median at a similar ranked school. There will be little employment options. If you want to be a lawyer and make $40,000 a year then continue. Or if you want to use your law degree as a masters degree to pursue other employment, then continue. Otherwise, it is an uphill battle.

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PepperJack
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Re: below median after 1st semester at T20, may drop out

Postby PepperJack » Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:39 pm

The 3.0 crap lexleon said is dead wrong. 2.5 is soo far below a 3.3 median it's boarderline impossible from. While the LSAT and UGPA are not great predictors, fall 1L GPA is an astonishingly strong predictor of spring GPA. This isn't to say you can't improve, but you'd need baller grades to be in striking distance of median. 2.5 is just so far below median it may be hard to come back from.

That said, if you bring something else to the table - URM (specifically AA) or have a parent whose a partner you may have some shot if you can hit median for 1 semester. If not you'd have to be like number 1 just to get median, which isn't a great place to be and about a 1:10,000 bet given the likely 400 students and how strong a predictor fall grades are. People rise and fall, but above a .25 variation is truly the outlier.

I might feel differently if you had 1 A and 1 D, but consistent B - really means you didn't get something in every class. You're prob smart enough to learn from it, and can improve but the type of improvement you'd need is profound.
Last edited by PepperJack on Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

daryldixon
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Re: below median after 1st semester at T20, may drop out

Postby daryldixon » Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:43 pm

Drop out. You will be better off than 35% of your classmates in the short and medium term.

Who knows about the long term though. As long as you go do something else that you either love or is meaningful, I don't think you will regret this decision in the long term.

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PepperJack
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Re: below median after 1st semester at T20, may drop out

Postby PepperJack » Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:45 pm

Lex, why would you do this to someone? This isn't a "You have a 2.5/140 go for it!" type of trolling" to make fun of someone who likely hasn't tried to be a respectable applicant. You are giving advice that would likely ruin someone's life if they listen to you. A 2.5 on a 3.3 median even at CCN would make most jobs impossible to get. Do you know what the odds are of a 2.5 getting 3.3 next semester, and the 4.0 s/he'd need to have a shot? This is lotto ticket type of odds, and there's no 100,000:1 odds payout. This is like a 1.5:1 payout.

LexLeon wrote:Contrary to what some people seem to believe, there's no straightforward formula that indicates whether one "should" drop out.

A mediocre first semester is not a death sentence; being above median for the next five semesters (far from an impossible goal) could lead you to graduate with a respectable GPA, or even honors. It's not like you're at a terrible school, either--somewhere within the T19 is actually quite excellent.

A 3.0 GPA (what you'd have after about one semester of 3.5) might be solid with respect to securing employment for those who come from your school, especially depending on where you'd like to work. (Talk to advisors or upperclassmen, and consult some websites that measure employment scores and geographic placement, to figure out the odds; you might also wish to consult some real attorneys, as opposed to the people who happen to be using this website and have not yet graduated.) Besides, nothing's to stop you from scoring 3.7's or better from here on out (though some ignorant people might try to convince you that your first semester grades somehow, necessarily, limit your potential during future semesters).

If you enjoy law school (as you've indicated you do), give serious thought to continuing but also doing your best to get better grades. In my opinion, whether you should continue is a matter of whether, after careful reflection and deep meditation or prayer over some time, you deeply feel that you should not continue. Don't let sheer grades or projected debt (or ignorant comments about these, for that matter) scare you away: Some of the most successful legal scholars and judges have also gotten poor grades; and even a relatively low paying job (~$60,000, still quite good) could pay off $100k before middle age.




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