outlines after 1L?

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anori
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outlines after 1L?

Postby anori » Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:17 pm

What do you guys think? I'm a 2L and I just don't have the time or energy to make outlines. I never really saw the point of them anyway and only did them because everyone beat into my head that "you must make your own outline for every single class or you will die."

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3|ink
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Re: outlines after 1L?

Postby 3|ink » Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:28 pm

You can easily get median without making an outline if that's okay for you. Some manage to do even better.

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sap
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Re: outlines after 1L?

Postby sap » Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:23 pm

I have never made an outline in my life. I don't intend to change that. The only negative consequence thus far is that some people get upset when I refuse to give them outlines for their outline banks.

If they were of no use to you 1L, they won't magically become useful during 2L. If you felt like you learned a lot writing them, you're not magically going to get better at learning in other ways during 2L.

I don't really understand the whole "everyone said I should make an outline, so I made an outline" mentality. You got to law school through college. If you're at a good lawschool, you probably did well in college. You passed tests in college. You already know the effective way to study for your learning style, and suddenly changing your study method to an effective method for somebody else's learning style is setting yourself up for failure.

EDIT: the one caveat I have is that you have a lot more take-homes/open books in 2L usually. If you need or just feel more comfortable with something more than just the names of cases on the syllabus to reference for concepts, I would imagine that outlines can be helpful in open book situations for quick reference. I usually just grab the syllabus and scan it to make sure I haven't forgotten anything, but my roommates think this method is crazy, so I guess it doesn't work for everyone.

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OutCold
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Re: outlines after 1L?

Postby OutCold » Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:22 pm

I've never made my own outlines and always done pretty well. I tend to use old outlines and just follow along to make sure they aren't missing anything. Some people learn by making the outline, but I've always found that time to be more valuable spent simply memorizing the old outline and doing practice tests.

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sinfiery
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Re: outlines after 1L?

Postby sinfiery » Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:56 pm

OutCold wrote:I've never made my own outlines and always done pretty well. I tend to use old outlines and just follow along to make sure they aren't missing anything. Some people learn by making the outline, but I've always found that time to be more valuable spent simply memorizing the old outline and doing practice tests.

Your anecdote is awesome. I'm doing this my 1L year and all the advice otherwise sometimes has you second guessing yourself

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OutCold
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Re: outlines after 1L?

Postby OutCold » Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:52 pm

sinfiery wrote:
OutCold wrote:I've never made my own outlines and always done pretty well. I tend to use old outlines and just follow along to make sure they aren't missing anything. Some people learn by making the outline, but I've always found that time to be more valuable spent simply memorizing the old outline and doing practice tests.

Your anecdote is awesome. I'm doing this my 1L year and all the advice otherwise sometimes has you second guessing yourself

You just have to stick with what you are comfortable with. I found it really difficult to actually listen to the lectures while trying to take notes. If you get access to an outline bank, you can generally find two different outline styles for each 1L class, as well as the core 2L classes: a script and a distilled conceptual test outline. I like to follow along to the script and review with the conceptual outline.

I should also add that I barely read the casebooks. A good outline supplemented by the key points your professor makes in class is all you really need. Exam success, in my experience, is really about figuring out what is important for applying law to a set of facts and memorizing the framework.

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sinfiery
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Re: outlines after 1L?

Postby sinfiery » Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:54 pm

OutCold wrote:
sinfiery wrote:
OutCold wrote:I've never made my own outlines and always done pretty well. I tend to use old outlines and just follow along to make sure they aren't missing anything. Some people learn by making the outline, but I've always found that time to be more valuable spent simply memorizing the old outline and doing practice tests.

Your anecdote is awesome. I'm doing this my 1L year and all the advice otherwise sometimes has you second guessing yourself

You just have to stick with what you are comfortable with. I found it really difficult to actually listen to the lectures while trying to take notes. If you get access to an outline bank, you can generally find two different outline styles for each 1L class, as well as the core 2L classes: a script and a distilled conceptual test outline. I like to follow along to the script and review with the conceptual outline.

I should also add that I barely read the casebooks. A good outline supplemented by the key points your professor makes in class is all you really need. Exam success, in my experience, is really about figuring out what is important for applying law to a set of facts and memorizing the framework.

i love you

arklaw13
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Re: outlines after 1L?

Postby arklaw13 » Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:36 pm

I found that I learned more from model answers given out by the prof than I did from reading outlines. The doctrine for contracts and torts was pretty easy and I didn't make more than a few page outline for either. What helped me was seeing the professor apply the law so I have something to go on when I write their exam. I feel worst about civpro because that prof didn't give out a model answer with his previous exam.

tl;dr - 10 page contracts outline, 7 page torts outline, used a 60 page outline from a 2L and my own 3 page outline for civpro. I feel fine. But I could also get median pwned.

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PepperJack
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Re: outlines after 1L?

Postby PepperJack » Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:58 pm

It's only useful to make an outline if you actually learn it like your second hand, and learn to synchronize as you go. I have done really well when I started with a 60 page outline, and cut it to 25 for classes because I learn what is important and condense statements of law too. There's no causation b/w having a good outline, and doing well. It's just that people who create good outlines would normally do well. It's not necessary but it's sure as hell more useful than reading cases or briefing. I mean, anything could work but what would you do to study other than outlining?

If it's closed book, maybe an outline is less helpful. I sure found it helpful to have 25 pages to look at an hour before the test instead of flipping through a book.
Last edited by PepperJack on Sat Dec 14, 2013 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PepperJack
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Re: outlines after 1L?

Postby PepperJack » Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:59 pm

arklaw13 wrote:I found that I learned more from model answers given out by the prof than I did from reading outlines. The doctrine for contracts and torts was pretty easy and I didn't make more than a few page outline for either. What helped me was seeing the professor apply the law so I have something to go on when I write their exam. I feel worst about civpro because that prof didn't give out a model answer with his previous exam.

tl;dr - 10 page contracts outline, 7 page torts outline, used a 60 page outline from a 2L and my own 3 page outline for civpro. I feel fine. But I could also get median pwned.

Yeah, of course a model answer is going to be more useful than reading an outline of the whole course. But they're not mutually exclusive. You gotta learn the stuff, then learn what the audience wants you to do with it.

arklaw13
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Re: outlines after 1L?

Postby arklaw13 » Sat Dec 14, 2013 5:21 pm

PepperJack wrote:
arklaw13 wrote:I found that I learned more from model answers given out by the prof than I did from reading outlines. The doctrine for contracts and torts was pretty easy and I didn't make more than a few page outline for either. What helped me was seeing the professor apply the law so I have something to go on when I write their exam. I feel worst about civpro because that prof didn't give out a model answer with his previous exam.

tl;dr - 10 page contracts outline, 7 page torts outline, used a 60 page outline from a 2L and my own 3 page outline for civpro. I feel fine. But I could also get median pwned.

Yeah, of course a model answer is going to be more useful than reading an outline of the whole course. But they're not mutually exclusive. You gotta learn the stuff, then learn what the audience wants you to do with it.


Well for torts reading the six or seven model answers he posted taught me more than the entire class as far as taking the actual exam goes. Contracts not so much because we only had one model. Glannon helped more than any outlining could have in civpro, especially without a model answer.

I think outlining is generally just a proxy for distilling the doctrine down and keeping things straight in your head, because having the 60 or even 20 page outline isn't going to help you that much on an exam. Mine were basically case names and memory joggers. You don't really learn anything by outlining IMO, at least not more than anyone else is going to know. Most of the BLL is pretty simple from what I've seen. Your grade is going to be based on how well you apply the doctrine, which is why the model answer is so helpful. I almost feel like I legit bombed civpro because it was just shooting the dark without any idea of what the guy wants.

tl;dr: 1L waxes poetic about exam taking. Could have destroyed the curve, could have been destroyed by the curve, so my advice is worth shit at this point.

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PepperJack
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Re: outlines after 1L?

Postby PepperJack » Sat Dec 14, 2013 5:25 pm

arklaw13 wrote:
PepperJack wrote:
arklaw13 wrote:I found that I learned more from model answers given out by the prof than I did from reading outlines. The doctrine for contracts and torts was pretty easy and I didn't make more than a few page outline for either. What helped me was seeing the professor apply the law so I have something to go on when I write their exam. I feel worst about civpro because that prof didn't give out a model answer with his previous exam.

tl;dr - 10 page contracts outline, 7 page torts outline, used a 60 page outline from a 2L and my own 3 page outline for civpro. I feel fine. But I could also get median pwned.

Yeah, of course a model answer is going to be more useful than reading an outline of the whole course. But they're not mutually exclusive. You gotta learn the stuff, then learn what the audience wants you to do with it.


Well for torts reading the six or seven model answers he posted taught me more than the entire class as far as taking the actual exam goes. Contracts not so much because we only had one model. Glannon helped more than any outlining could have in civpro, especially without a model answer.

I think outlining is generally just a proxy for distilling the doctrine down and keeping things straight in your head, because having the 60 or even 20 page outline isn't going to help you that much on an exam. Mine were basically case names and memory joggers. You don't really learn anything by outlining IMO, at least not more than anyone else is going to know. Most of the BLL is pretty simple from what I've seen. Your grade is going to be based on how well you apply the doctrine, which is why the model answer is so helpful. I almost feel like I legit bombed civpro because it was just shooting the dark without any idea of what the guy wants.

tl;dr: 1L waxes poetic about exam taking. Could have destroyed the curve, could have been destroyed by the curve, so my advice is worth shit at this point.

That's what it is. Also 20 pages of information is possible to learn by hard in a day. However, yeah, if you don't know the stuff well you won't be able to spot it. Issue spotting tests are kind of an anomaly anyway; you cannot know the stuff that well, and still do great or know it cold and not do great.

shock259
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Re: outlines after 1L?

Postby shock259 » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:13 am

Not outlining is a huge time saver. I haven't done it since 1L. My grades have dropped a bit, but who really cares? They don't matter any more. Not outlining saves me SO much time.




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