1L: My outline in torts is already 40 pages...

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JZ_
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1L: My outline in torts is already 40 pages...

Postby JZ_ » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:01 pm

I'm a 1L, and have been keeping up with my outlines for my doctrinal classes, updating them every week. My outlines are already 30-40 pages and I understand that I will be cutting it down come the end of the semester. But, those who are 2 and 3L's, can you give me any advice as to whether I am overdoing it?

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: 1L: My outline in torts is already 40 pages...

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:08 pm

Is your final in mid November? If not, you're overdoing it. 40 pages of class/reading notes a month in might be overdoing it.

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atcushman
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Re: 1L: My outline in torts is already 40 pages...

Postby atcushman » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:10 pm

Yes...and while everyone is different I typically don't start outlining till at least 1/2 way closer to 3/4 of the way through the semester and use it as a review tool. This also allows you to focus in on whats actually important for your outline. Your outline shouldnt have facts from cases just the core rules. What you have sounds more like notes/briefing rather than an outline. To give you an idea my Torts outline was 16 pages I got the outline from the person who calid the year before and it was 26

JZ_
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Re: 1L: My outline in torts is already 40 pages...

Postby JZ_ » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:12 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:Is your final in mid November? If not, you're overdoing it. 40 pages of class/reading notes a month in might be overdoing it.


Thanks. Do you add every case you go over in class with the facts of the case? Or do are you making them into a hypothetical after stating the rule? I've been writing the cases and brief facts of the case and why it was held the way it was. Maybe that's the problem?

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kalvano
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Re: 1L: My outline in torts is already 40 pages...

Postby kalvano » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:13 pm

A long outline is fine right now. Paring it down later will be what helps you remember and earn things.

But you don't need more than a sentence for case facts. Something that will jar your memory.

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hephaestus
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Re: 1L: My outline in torts is already 40 pages...

Postby hephaestus » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:13 pm

You are overdoing it. And this is too early to outline. I tried to outline from day one in one of my classes, but I ended up redoing the entire thing in November.

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atcushman
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Re: 1L: My outline in torts is already 40 pages...

Postby atcushman » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:16 pm

Here is an example of how i used cases

Vosburg v. Putney
Kick to the shin case
a. Then intention do harm is of the essence of an assault
b. P* must show the intention was unlawful or that the D* was in fault
c. If intended act is unlawful, the intent is unlawful (if the kick was unlawful, the intention was unlawful)
d. The wrongdoer is liable for all injuries resulting directly from the wrongful act whether they could or could not have been foreseen. (eggshell skull plaintiff principle)
Garratt v. Dailey
Kid pulls out the chair
a. When a minor has committed a tort with force he is liable
b. The defendant does not have to intend harm but if it is shown that the D* knew with substantial certainty that the harm would occur he is liable
c. The absence of intent to injure does not absolve D* from liability
d. The only time age is considered is when determining what D* could have known

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: 1L: My outline in torts is already 40 pages...

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:16 pm

JZ_ wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:Is your final in mid November? If not, you're overdoing it. 40 pages of class/reading notes a month in might be overdoing it.


Thanks. Do you add every case you go over in class with the facts of the case? Or do are you making them into a hypothetical after stating the rule? I've been writing the cases and brief facts of the case and why it was held the way it was. Maybe that's the problem?

Like the other poster said, you should be focused on the rules, not the facts of the cases or really even the specific reasoning the court used. In some rare cases a professor might want to know some of this stuff but that's not too common. Talk to upperclassmen and see if you can find old exams to narrow down what the professor will actually want to see.

That said I would sometimes put a case name with a very brief description in next to a rule. Something like:

I. Negligence
A. Rule about negligence (Smith v. Jones--case where one guy torted another)

EDIT: What kalvano said is also correct. Your outline right now is basically just a different version of your notes. You'll just have to cut it way down as exams approach.
Last edited by Tiago Splitter on Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JZ_
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Re: 1L: My outline in torts is already 40 pages...

Postby JZ_ » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:18 pm

atcushman wrote:Yes...and while everyone is different I typically don't start outlining till at least 1/2 way closer to 3/4 of the way through the semester and use it as a review tool. This also allows you to focus in on whats actually important for your outline. Your outline shouldnt have facts from cases just the core rules. What you have sounds more like notes/briefing rather than an outline. To give you an idea my Torts outline was 16 pages I got the outline from the person who calid the year before and it was 26


16 pages that's pretty straightforward. My professors have been pounding us about constantly updating your outlines and that by the end of the semester it wont be a surprise when it creeps to 100 pages.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: 1L: My outline in torts is already 40 pages...

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:19 pm

JZ_ wrote:
atcushman wrote:Yes...and while everyone is different I typically don't start outlining till at least 1/2 way closer to 3/4 of the way through the semester and use it as a review tool. This also allows you to focus in on whats actually important for your outline. Your outline shouldnt have facts from cases just the core rules. What you have sounds more like notes/briefing rather than an outline. To give you an idea my Torts outline was 16 pages I got the outline from the person who calid the year before and it was 26


16 pages that's pretty straightforward. My professors have been pounding us about constantly updating your outlines and that by the end of the semester it wont be a surprise when it creeps to 100 pages.

100 pages will be useless come exam time, which is why you'll need to cut it down. But as was said, the cutting down process is what really teaches you.

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atcushman
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Re: 1L: My outline in torts is already 40 pages...

Postby atcushman » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:20 pm

JZ_ wrote:
atcushman wrote:Yes...and while everyone is different I typically don't start outlining till at least 1/2 way closer to 3/4 of the way through the semester and use it as a review tool. This also allows you to focus in on whats actually important for your outline. Your outline shouldnt have facts from cases just the core rules. What you have sounds more like notes/briefing rather than an outline. To give you an idea my Torts outline was 16 pages I got the outline from the person who calid the year before and it was 26


16 pages that's pretty straightforward. My professors have been pounding us about constantly updating your outlines and that by the end of the semester it wont be a surprise when it creeps to 100 pages.


your professor is a self absorbed shitboomer

JZ_
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Re: 1L: My outline in torts is already 40 pages...

Postby JZ_ » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:21 pm

atcushman wrote:Here is an example of how i used cases

Vosburg v. Putney
Kick to the shin case
a. Then intention do harm is of the essence of an assault
b. P* must show the intention was unlawful or that the D* was in fault
c. If intended act is unlawful, the intent is unlawful (if the kick was unlawful, the intention was unlawful)
d. The wrongdoer is liable for all injuries resulting directly from the wrongful act whether they could or could not have been foreseen. (eggshell skull plaintiff principle)
Garratt v. Dailey
Kid pulls out the chair
a. When a minor has committed a tort with force he is liable
b. The defendant does not have to intend harm but if it is shown that the D* knew with substantial certainty that the harm would occur he is liable
c. The absence of intent to injure does not absolve D* from liability
d. The only time age is considered is when determining what D* could have known


Yeah I def need to go through and cut a lot out...

JZ_
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Re: 1L: My outline in torts is already 40 pages...

Postby JZ_ » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:23 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
JZ_ wrote:
atcushman wrote:Yes...and while everyone is different I typically don't start outlining till at least 1/2 way closer to 3/4 of the way through the semester and use it as a review tool. This also allows you to focus in on whats actually important for your outline. Your outline shouldnt have facts from cases just the core rules. What you have sounds more like notes/briefing rather than an outline. To give you an idea my Torts outline was 16 pages I got the outline from the person who calid the year before and it was 26


16 pages that's pretty straightforward. My professors have been pounding us about constantly updating your outlines and that by the end of the semester it wont be a surprise when it creeps to 100 pages.

100 pages will be useless come exam time, which is why you'll need to cut it down. But as was said, the cutting down process is what really teaches you.


Thanks, I appreciate the advice.

NotMyRealName09
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Re: 1L: My outline in torts is already 40 pages...

Postby NotMyRealName09 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:41 am

Something about forests, trees, not seeing......

Just take notes now, and make your outline later. You still don't have a big picture yet.

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stillwater
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Re: 1L: My outline in torts is already 40 pages...

Postby stillwater » Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:16 pm

find someone else's outline. its better.

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mephistopheles
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Re: 1L: My outline in torts is already 40 pages...

Postby mephistopheles » Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:45 pm

i did well and all of my outlines were at least 100 pages. 130 for contracts and property.

the key is good tables of contents so that quick referencing is still possible.

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ph14
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Re: 1L: My outline in torts is already 40 pages...

Postby ph14 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:55 pm

mephistopheles wrote:i did well and all of my outlines were at least 100 pages. 130 for contracts and property.

the key is good tables of contents so that quick referencing is still possible.


First, it depends on the exam format. If it's a take home exam then it doesn't really matter how long your outline is. Second, in any event, I wouldn't say that 40 pages now is necessarily overdoing it. Something like a 100-130 page outline isn't unreasonable for a doctrine class, at all. Sometimes the value in an outline is finding that one subtle point that you recall from the reading or class somewhere. So I like to keep items such as that in my outline. Third, I agree with mephistopheles. As long as you can quickly reference anything you need you should be fine. If you can ctrl+f keywords that's good, but if you have to use a hard copy then just have a good table of contents. Regardless, by the time the exam rolls around you should not really be relying too heavily on the outline. You should maybe check it occasionally here or there or if there are a number of factors in a balancing test or something, but for the most part you should have a good grasp on the doctrine.

That being said, I do find it helpful, as do many of my friends, to have a shorter outline come exam time that is basically just the blackletter doctrine, listing the basically holding of the cases in class, rules, statutes (if any), etc. That's kind of the best of both worlds approach. You can make that in a few days later in the semester.

-3L

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manofjustice
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Re: 1L: My outline in torts is already 40 pages...

Postby manofjustice » Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:17 pm

OP wrote:1L: My outline in torts is already 40 pages...


And that is why you will get a C in Torts. For the love of God cut that thing down into only what's relevant and useful.

UnderrateOverachieve
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Re: 1L: My outline in torts is already 40 pages...

Postby UnderrateOverachieve » Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:52 pm

atcushman wrote:
JZ_ wrote:
atcushman wrote:Yes...and while everyone is different I typically don't start outlining till at least 1/2 way closer to 3/4 of the way through the semester and use it as a review tool. This also allows you to focus in on whats actually important for your outline. Your outline shouldnt have facts from cases just the core rules. What you have sounds more like notes/briefing rather than an outline. To give you an idea my Torts outline was 16 pages I got the outline from the person who calid the year before and it was 26


16 pages that's pretty straightforward. My professors have been pounding us about constantly updating your outlines and that by the end of the semester it wont be a surprise when it creeps to 100 pages.


your professor is a self absorbed shitboomer


Their professor might not be off... 100 pages is a respectable CLASS NOTES outline. I typically hit about 85-100 pages of outline for my class + other notes.

If the teacher was recommending a 100 page outline for use on the exam then yeah, shitboomer.

thegrayman
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Re: 1L: My outline in torts is already 40 pages...

Postby thegrayman » Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:06 pm

Keep in mind that by the time you actually take the exam, you will have multiple outlines (or at least you should). A nice checklist outline that is bare bones and only covers the basics (no cases, just BLL/tests). Then a nice shortened outline (max 20 pages) that is truncated. Last, a full course outline, which would be the 100+ page one. If you plan on actually referencing the 100 page one, it needs to be indexed and flagged like crazy so you can get to any page you need asap.

odoylerulez
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Re: 1L: My outline in torts is already 40 pages...

Postby odoylerulez » Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:37 pm

You're fine, but don't think of them as "outlines." Think of what you have as "notes."

Later this month or early next month, you'll start to have a better feel for what's important and each class and what's not so important, both in terms of what you'll need to practice law and for the final exam.

Take your notes and use these notes to craft your outlines. The few posters that think you're already in trouble are morons - ignore them. Having a long set of notes to work with will probably make crafting your concise outlines easier.

The poster above me has a decent approach that should work for many students.

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brotherdarkness
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Re: 1L: My outline in torts is already 40 pages...

Postby brotherdarkness » Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:48 pm

.
Last edited by brotherdarkness on Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

helfer snooterbagon
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Re: 1L: My outline in torts is already 40 pages...

Postby helfer snooterbagon » Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:08 am

No one has the silver bullet. Everyone just has anecdotes. I did not make outlines, I put the key issues on one sheet of paper, one sided. I did extremely well. However, this may not work for you.

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gdane
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Re: 1L: My outline in torts is already 40 pages...

Postby gdane » Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:39 pm

25 pages max.

Negligence

Duty
General rule of what duty is
Cases that give you examples of where a duty is owed and where a duty is not Owed.

Breach
Repeat above.

Etc...

When including facts into your cases keep it very short. You don't need to know that the plaintiff had brown shoes on or was a communist. Unless relevant of course and these minor details almost never are.

You should know the facts of most cases beforehand. Ex: "Papo had a party. There were guests. Out of nowhere a helicopter crashes into his yard. A crowd starts to stampede toward the one exit. As the crowd is doing this the helicopters blades come loose and decapitate three guests." bells should ring without ever looking at an outline.

Immediately without looking at your outline you should think Palsgraf (among other cases).

Good luck.

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northwood
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Re: 1L: My outline in torts is already 40 pages...

Postby northwood » Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:51 pm

gdane wrote:25 pages max.

Negligence

Duty
General rule of what duty is
Cases that give you examples of where a duty is owed and where a duty is not Owed.

Breach
Repeat above.

Etc...

When including facts into your cases keep it very short. You don't need to know that the plaintiff had brown shoes on or was a communist. Unless relevant of course and these minor details almost never are.

You should know the facts of most cases beforehand. Ex: "Papo had a party. There were guests. Out of nowhere a helicopter crashes into his yard. A crowd starts to stampede toward the one exit. As the crowd is doing this the helicopters blades come loose and decapitate three guests." bells should ring without ever looking at an outline.

Immediately without looking at your outline you should think Palsgraf (among other cases).

Good luck.




shoulda gone with a 4th of July Fireworks Show Gone HORRIBLY Wrong Hypo,... but the point is made.




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