Am I doing 1L right?

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bsktbll28082
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Re: Am I doing 1L right?

Postby bsktbll28082 » Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:55 am

How long until we know what's relevant in a case then? I'm sure it depends on the person, but does it usually click before the end of the 1st semester?

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Druid
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Re: Am I doing 1L right?

Postby Druid » Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:08 pm

bsktbll28082 wrote:How long until we know what's relevant in a case then? I'm sure it depends on the person, but does it usually click before the end of the 1st semester?


About halfway through the semester you should start hitting your stride. At that point, use supplements and start outlining. Nothing heavy. Heavy is for after Thanksgiving.

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sinfiery
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Re: Am I doing 1L right?

Postby sinfiery » Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:52 pm

At this point, I really have no idea what to look for in taking notes so I'm thinking I read a previous years outline about the case (They gave us multiple versions of this for all our classes..!) and just read the case so I don't look like a fool when cold called. Then in about a month or so, I'll go reread the cases and start creating my own outline/using supplements and such.

Any flaws here? Guide me TLS

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thesealocust
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Re: Am I doing 1L right?

Postby thesealocust » Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:09 pm

sinfiery wrote:At this point, I really have no idea what to look for in taking notes so I'm thinking I read a previous years outline about the case (They gave us multiple versions of this for all our classes..!) and just read the case so I don't look like a fool when cold called. Then in about a month or so, I'll go reread the cases and start creating my own outline/using supplements and such.

Any flaws here? Guide me TLS


Reading cases might actually be a waste of time once you learn the ropes, re-reading cases is absolutely a waste of time. It doesn't matter if you look like a fool when you are cold called, it matters how many points you get on the exam. The exam will be new fact patterns that require you to apply laws and principles, not a test requiring you to regurgitate factual information about cases or doctrines from supplements.

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sinfiery
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Re: Am I doing 1L right?

Postby sinfiery » Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:38 pm

thesealocust wrote:Reading cases might actually be a waste of time once you learn the ropes, re-reading cases is absolutely a waste of time. It doesn't matter if you look like a fool when you are cold called, it matters how many points you get on the exam. The exam will be new fact patterns that require you to apply laws and principles, not a test requiring you to regurgitate factual information about cases or doctrines from supplements.



I see. I think cold calls will get more streamlined too in that they won't ask you every little thing about the case (As of one class, they ask some definite filler questions in regards to the fact patterns), so I will feel better about just knowing the important points of the case. I'll probably still read the cases for now so I can get to that point where I know the ropes but from there on, I'll start toning it down.



Still, trying to fight off that everyone around me is doing so much, so I probably should too feeling is difficult.

Thanks for the info; TLS has made my 1L experience pretty amazing so far in that I can not worry too much about learning everything happening in class as of yet

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Joe Quincy
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Re: Am I doing 1L right?s

Postby Joe Quincy » Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:50 pm

lawhopeful10 wrote:I will just say this. On the first day of class I looked at my crim teachers final exam and saw she has a definitions section. Like half the words that were tested on this old exam she went over like the first 2 or 3 classes. I talked to the TA who ace the class and she said in this class she took double the notes of other classes because of how the teacher tested. Moral of the story if I hadn't found this out so early I probably wouldn't have given a shit about the definition of felony murder or interlocutory appeal even though that is gonna be tested. Yea maybe a 2L would have had it but I rather trust my notes.


It took looking at an exam to know the defintions of the crimes...in crim
law...were important? What else would they test?

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Am I doing 1L right?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:52 pm

thesealocust wrote:
sinfiery wrote:At this point, I really have no idea what to look for in taking notes so I'm thinking I read a previous years outline about the case (They gave us multiple versions of this for all our classes..!) and just read the case so I don't look like a fool when cold called. Then in about a month or so, I'll go reread the cases and start creating my own outline/using supplements and such.

Any flaws here? Guide me TLS


Reading cases might actually be a waste of time once you learn the ropes, re-reading cases is absolutely a waste of time. It doesn't matter if you look like a fool when you are cold called, it matters how many points you get on the exam. The exam will be new fact patterns that require you to apply laws and principles, not a test requiring you to regurgitate factual information about cases or doctrines from supplements.

I generally agree with this. Knowing the facts of the cases can be somewhat helpful because some profs will put analogous facts into the exam fact pattern (either looking for you to make a connection to a particular case, or as a red herring to make you think you should think of that case). But it's not that you need to make a concerted effort to sit down and learn the facts because you need to be able to tell the prof what the facts of X v. Y were. It's more that the facts can help you think about/remember what part of the law you should be applying. So, if, on your torts exam, the bozo in the fact pattern disables some safety feature on some dangerous item and gets horribly injured, you might think, Ah, this is like Hood v. Ryobi, I should talk about adequacy of warnings.

I mean, you'd probably get adequacy of warnings anyway if you have all the rules down, but for me, being able to link the fact pattern to the facts of a particular case was helpful.

But this is only an argument for actually reading cases (which I did throughout law school). It's definitely not an argument for rereading them. And tsl is absolutely right that it doesn't matter what you look like when you get cold-called.

masterbrowski
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Re: Am I doing 1L right?

Postby masterbrowski » Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:06 pm

Obtain good (reputable) outlines from upper classmen. Review them after each class - see what was relevant from today's class. Try to commit that to memory. The sooner you understand how to boil what you covered in class down into digestible outline form, the better. Reading outlines after class will show you that method. At some point, you'll become ready to make your own, or at least to start editing the ones you got from others.

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Re: Am I doing 1L right?

Postby masterbrowski » Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:26 pm

thesealocust wrote:
sinfiery wrote:At this point, I really have no idea what to look for in taking notes so I'm thinking I read a previous years outline about the case (They gave us multiple versions of this for all our classes..!) and just read the case so I don't look like a fool when cold called. Then in about a month or so, I'll go reread the cases and start creating my own outline/using supplements and such.

Any flaws here? Guide me TLS


Reading cases might actually be a waste of time once you learn the ropes, re-reading cases is absolutely a waste of time. It doesn't matter if you look like a fool when you are cold called, it matters how many points you get on the exam. The exam will be new fact patterns that require you to apply laws and principles, not a test requiring you to regurgitate factual information about cases or doctrines from supplements.


This is right. Some of the people who end up with the highest grades/jobs from 1L OCI were the same ones who sounded inarticulate in class. There is no grade for class. 1L tests only on your ability to apply BLL, and policy to some degree, to a brand new set of facts. Class exists to inform you of what areas the test will cover, and to teach you what "applying BLL" looks like.

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hephaestus
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Re: Am I doing 1L right?

Postby hephaestus » Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:29 pm

masterbrowski wrote:Obtain good (reputable) outlines from upper classmen. Review them after each class - see what was relevant from today's class. Try to commit that to memory. The sooner you understand how to boil what you covered in class down into digestible outline form, the better. Reading outlines after class will show you that method. At some point, you'll become ready to make your own, or at least to start editing the ones you got from others.

I think I'd wait to use upperclass outlines. For me, wasting a lot of time in the beginning of the semester helped me eventually understand the important takeaways.
Eta: but a lot of this is case by case. Figure out what works for you and do it.

masterbrowski
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Re: Am I doing 1L right?

Postby masterbrowski » Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:40 pm

ImNoScar wrote:
masterbrowski wrote:Obtain good (reputable) outlines from upper classmen. Review them after each class - see what was relevant from today's class. Try to commit that to memory. The sooner you understand how to boil what you covered in class down into digestible outline form, the better. Reading outlines after class will show you that method. At some point, you'll become ready to make your own, or at least to start editing the ones you got from others.

I think I'd wait to use upperclass outlines. For me, wasting a lot of time in the beginning of the semester helped me eventually understand the important takeaways by conditioning how to read.


I don't mean that you shouldn't skim/read cases, come to class, take notes, and try and think on your own. I'm just saying that outlines can be like a checklist - to make sure you didn't miss anything before you move on to another topic.

It's one thing to struggle through the process so that you get better at reading cases. It's another thing to have misread the holding of a case and only find that out in October.

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bsktbll28082
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Re: Am I doing 1L right?

Postby bsktbll28082 » Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:44 pm

Most of my classes have a 20% class participation grade. I'd also like to not sound like an idiot in case I need them for a LOC later on in life. I guess if I do well on the exam, they won't care about my in class performance? I should find out.

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Re: Am I doing 1L right?

Postby dj_roomba » Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:35 pm

Is the theory and background facts that don't necessarily have to do with the law or applying law important at all?

For example: entire chapter of crim law is on the institution of punishment, different views on it, etc.

Will this be tested? I was under the impression that exams tested applying law to fact.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Am I doing 1L right?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:37 pm

dj_roomba wrote:Is the theory and background facts that don't necessarily have to do with the law or applying law important at all?

For example: entire chapter of crim law is on the institution of punishment, different views on it, etc.

Will this be tested? I was under the impression that exams tested applying law to fact.

Some profs will put policy questions on exams, and those questions will often ask you to discuss something like the difference between retributive and utilitarian sentencing policies or some such nonsense. You'll have to try to get a hold of old exams from your professor to see if this is something you should focus on. Also ask upperclassmen who had the same professor.

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Re: Am I doing 1L right?

Postby manofjustice » Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:10 am

AllDangle wrote:I read most of the TLS guides prior to starting. I am reading the casebook/cases for the relevant BLL. I am doing mini-briefs that just list a sentence of fact, the rule (BLL), any policy considerations the opinion mentioned, as well as any other nuances it states (a majority of jurisdictions use this other rule, etc). I am reading the sections in my supps that correspond to what I am reading in class (tough right now since some classes are presenting cases that cover many different topics in the law, only for us to go back and look at each topic later in more depth). In class I am taking notes when the professor mentions something I hadn't thought of, a new point of law, policy, etc. Am I doing 1L right?


I'll just be quite honest. I read nothing of this thread...not your OP nor anyone else's posts. That's for the simple reason that TCR is always, always...no. No. You're doing it wrong. Go figure out how to do it better. Obsessive, pathological, depression-inducing self-criticality is the key to success in law school and the legal profession generally. Enjoy hell.

Although, speaking from personal experience...once you hit on something that actually does work, have enough sense to stop the whole obsessive self-criticality thing. Not for your own mental health...God, what does that matter. But simply so that you minimize the risk of introducing error.

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thesealocust
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Re: Am I doing 1L right?

Postby thesealocust » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:52 am

dj_roomba wrote:Is the theory and background facts that don't necessarily have to do with the law or applying law important at all?

For example: entire chapter of crim law is on the institution of punishment, different views on it, etc.

Will this be tested? I was under the impression that exams tested applying law to fact.


There probably will not be a question asking you to describe your thoughts on the theories of punishment. But the law is the physical manifestation of policies, and applying law to fact on an exam will require you to resolve ambiguities and gray area fact patterns. There are many ways to do that, but one (which will get you points) is to always consider the policies.

Example: It's a crime to knowingly deface a statute in a park. A student puts posters on the statue advertising a human rights rally and gets arrested while doing so. What result?

To get points applying the law, you will have to look at it from every angle, and come up with arguments about why what the student did was - or wasn't - defacing the statue. You'll have to examine counterarguments, and the policies of criminal law can be tools you use to flesh out arguments or weigh the merits of arguments. If you learn and think about policies, you'll find yourself able to write hundreds of words in response to a fact pattern like the above with one sentence of law and one sentence of facts. That ability will get you points on the exam.

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lawhopeful10
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Re: Am I doing 1L right?s

Postby lawhopeful10 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:08 am

Joe Quincy wrote:
lawhopeful10 wrote:I will just say this. On the first day of class I looked at my crim teachers final exam and saw she has a definitions section. Like half the words that were tested on this old exam she went over like the first 2 or 3 classes. I talked to the TA who ace the class and she said in this class she took double the notes of other classes because of how the teacher tested. Moral of the story if I hadn't found this out so early I probably wouldn't have given a shit about the definition of felony murder or interlocutory appeal even though that is gonna be tested. Yea maybe a 2L would have had it but I rather trust my notes.


It took looking at an exam to know the defintions of the crimes...in crim
law...were important? What else would they test?

Lol it took looking at an exam to realize it is a different format then every other law exam for my other professors as well as every other law exam I have seen. This teacher gives points for case citations, MPL rules and other random stuff. And yes sure I would have thought definitions were important but not necessarily my test would have a definitions section. Outside of trying to be a dick on an anonymous online forum are you really advising people not to look at what the final exam will be like. Fuck off dude.

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Easy-E
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Re: Am I doing 1L right?

Postby Easy-E » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:29 pm

I've been getting all my casebook reading done between classes and drinking cheap bourbon on nights and weekends. Right track?

masterbrowski
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Re: Am I doing 1L right?s

Postby masterbrowski » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:43 pm

lawhopeful10 wrote:
Joe Quincy wrote:
lawhopeful10 wrote:I will just say this. On the first day of class I looked at my crim teachers final exam and saw she has a definitions section. Like half the words that were tested on this old exam she went over like the first 2 or 3 classes. I talked to the TA who ace the class and she said in this class she took double the notes of other classes because of how the teacher tested. Moral of the story if I hadn't found this out so early I probably wouldn't have given a shit about the definition of felony murder or interlocutory appeal even though that is gonna be tested. Yea maybe a 2L would have had it but I rather trust my notes.


It took looking at an exam to know the defintions of the crimes...in crim
law...were important? What else would they test?

Lol it took looking at an exam to realize it is a different format then every other law exam for my other professors as well as every other law exam I have seen. This teacher gives points for case citations, MPL rules and other random stuff. And yes sure I would have thought definitions were important but not necessarily my test would have a definitions section. Outside of trying to be a dick on an anonymous online forum are you really advising people not to look at what the final exam will be like. Fuck off dude.


Wait... your prof has a definitions section? So what? Say she tells you what the definition of felony murder is (killing in furtherance of the commission of a felony - no culpability requirement). That isn't going to help you in an exam, unless you literally forget everything.

You will still need to know things like: 1) what felonies can be used (inherently dangerous felonies only? merger doctrine?), 2) what does "in furtherance" mean?, 3) Does the jurisdiction follow agency theory or prox. cause theory?, 4) how does felony murder interact with conspiracy or accomplice liability . . . ETC.

There are a million small rules of felony murder, and knowing how those rules apply will separate good and bad grades on a felony murder answer.

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kalvano
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Re: Am I doing 1L right?

Postby kalvano » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:49 pm

I think he means there is a literal section in which you write the definition of things like "felony murder" for points. If that's the case, then I would damn sure want a sheet with the professor's definitions.

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941law
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Re: Am I doing 1L right?

Postby 941law » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:50 pm

dj_roomba wrote:Is the theory and background facts that don't necessarily have to do with the law or applying law important at all?

For example: entire chapter of crim law is on the institution of punishment, different views on it, etc.

Will this be tested? I was under the impression that exams tested applying law to fact.


Image

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lawhopeful10
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Re: Am I doing 1L right?s

Postby lawhopeful10 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:51 pm

masterbrowski wrote:
lawhopeful10 wrote:
Joe Quincy wrote:
lawhopeful10 wrote:I will just say this. On the first day of class I looked at my crim teachers final exam and saw she has a definitions section. Like half the words that were tested on this old exam she went over like the first 2 or 3 classes. I talked to the TA who ace the class and she said in this class she took double the notes of other classes because of how the teacher tested. Moral of the story if I hadn't found this out so early I probably wouldn't have given a shit about the definition of felony murder or interlocutory appeal even though that is gonna be tested. Yea maybe a 2L would have had it but I rather trust my notes.


It took looking at an exam to know the defintions of the crimes...in crim
law...were important? What else would they test?

Lol it took looking at an exam to realize it is a different format then every other law exam for my other professors as well as every other law exam I have seen. This teacher gives points for case citations, MPL rules and other random stuff. And yes sure I would have thought definitions were important but not necessarily my test would have a definitions section. Outside of trying to be a dick on an anonymous online forum are you really advising people not to look at what the final exam will be like. Fuck off dude.


Wait... your prof has a definitions section? So what? Say she tells you what the definition of felony murder is (killing in furtherance of the commission of a felony - no culpability requirement). That isn't going to help you in an exam, unless you literally forget everything.

You will still need to know things like: 1) what felonies can be used (inherently dangerous felonies only? merger doctrine?), 2) what does "in furtherance" mean?, 3) Does the jurisdiction follow agency theory or prox. cause theory?, 4) how does felony murder interact with conspiracy or accomplice liability . . . ETC.

There are a million small rules of felony murder, and knowing how those rules apply will separate good and bad grades on a felony murder answer.

Sure, my point is just that looking at my teachers final exam keyed me into specific things I should be paying attention to that I otherwise might not have realized their importance. I don't feel like listing over more examples but my entire point is just to look at your teachers final exam in case it is very unique which is possible.

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lawhopeful10
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Re: Am I doing 1L right?

Postby lawhopeful10 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:52 pm

And yes I mean exactly what Kalvano said.

masterbrowski
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Re: Am I doing 1L right?

Postby masterbrowski » Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:37 pm

lawhopeful10 wrote:And yes I mean exactly what Kalvano said.


is the test closed book, then? if so, your idea of memorizing definitions right now is smart. flashcard making ftw.




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