Obama proposes shaving a year from law school

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haus
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Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school

Postby haus » Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:41 pm

Although the Northwestern 2 year program is nothing other than shoving the 3 year program into a 2 year calendar. You still need to take the same number of credits, and still have as many classes that will be a waste of time. Hardly a earthshaking proposition. But real change will require the ABA to play along, I am guessing that this will not happen until the rank-and-file schools are feeling enough pressure from reduced interest/enrollment that they demand an opportunity to offer a truly innovative alternative product.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:49 pm

ajax adonis wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:Keep the unlimited government loan regime in place and schools will quickly make up the difference with higher tuition for those first two years.


Man, I would love to see some of the bullshit explanations law deans give for raising tuition in a 2-year-law-school scenario.

They don't really have to say much of anything, although apparently some will try. My first two years of tuition will be the same as what someone enrolling at my school in 2004 would have paid over three years. Schools care very little about keeping prices down but going to a 2-year program will make it even easier for them to jack up tuition on a per year basis.

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HarlandBassett
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Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school

Postby HarlandBassett » Wed Sep 16, 2015 1:38 pm

now that the LS matriculation have trended down significantly since the 2010 matriculation bubble, what is the likelihood of
1. 100% online LS
2. 2 year instead of 3 years

I've seen some headway with partial online LSs, limiting it to 15 credits and requiring showing up on campus. The real game changer, in my opinion, is the 2 year curriculum. Being a CPA, that 2 year curriculum is the difference between me being a tax attorney or just staying put on the tax valuation side.

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banjo
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Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school

Postby banjo » Wed Sep 16, 2015 2:23 pm

HarlandBassett wrote:now that the LS matriculation have trended down significantly since the 2010 matriculation bubble, what is the likelihood of
1. 100% online LS
2. 2 year instead of 3 years

I've seen some headway with partial online LSs, limiting it to 15 credits and requiring showing up on campus. The real game changer, in my opinion, is the 2 year curriculum. Being a CPA, that 2 year curriculum is the difference between me being a tax attorney or just staying put on the tax valuation side.


3L is here to stay, but will transform into something more experiential and skills-based. There will be more externships, clinics, study abroad, working part-time etc. A few leading indicators:

-DPW and K&E are experimenting with having 3Ls to work up to 20 hours a week during the year
-New York allows some students to take the bar in February and do pro bono full-time during their final semester
-NYU recently overhauled its 3L year to include more study abroad, more specializations, more fieldwork
-NU's accelerated JD program, Brooklyn's 2-year JD program (suggesting that the market is responding, but refusing to budge much on tuition)

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HarlandBassett
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Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school

Postby HarlandBassett » Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:58 pm

very timely article

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... in-decades

September 17, 2015

American law graduates are increasingly getting a taste of failure before they start their careers. Performance on the bar exam has continued to slip, early results show.

The average score on the multiple-choice portion of the July test fell 1.6 points from the previous year, reaching its lowest level since 1988, according to data provided to Bloomberg by the National Conference of Bar Examiners. The mean score on this summer's exam was 139.9, down from 141.5 in July 2014.

"It was not unexpected," says Erica Moeser, the president of the NCBE, which creates the multiple choice part of the test. "We are in a period where we can expect to see some decline, until the market for going to law school improves."

Law schools have been admitting students with lower qualifications who "may encounter difficulty" when taking the bar, Moeser says.
About a dozen states have published their pass rates, and the numbers are even worse than last year, when graduates performed historically badly. Pass rates for students who took the test in July were down in most states that have reported results.

“The decline in student quality continues to affect the results,” says Derek Muller, a professor at Pepperdine University School of Law. As fewer people apply to law schools, the programs have started filling their campuses with students who aren’t as qualified as they used to be. That strategy produced a crisis in 2014, when scores on the multiple-choice portion of the test registered their largest year-over-year drop in four decades.

The poor showing a year ago prompted a debate between law school deans and the organization that creates the exam. Deans said the test was unfair and that a software glitch that made it harder to submit test results may have hurt some students. The NCBE's Moeser pointed her finger right back, charging that schools were letting in students who didn't have a good shot at passing the test.

This year’s results are among the most important in the exam's history, because they will offer a clearer sense of whether last year’s failure rate was an anomaly or the start of a very bad run. So far, the numbers are pointing in the wrong direction for the nation’s law schools.

In Mississippi, the pass rate on the July exam plunged 27 percentage points, from 71 percent in July 2014 to 51 percent this year. In Oklahoma and New Mexico, pass rates slumped 11 percentage points and 12 percentage points, respectively. Most states haven’t revealed how their graduates fared yet, so it’s too early to feel overwhelmingly confident about what the smattering of numbers means for the state of legal education.

Still, Muller, the Pepperdine law professor, says the early results show that graduates will keep getting hammered by the test as long as law schools keep lowering their admissions standards. “There isn’t a lot that schools can do. You can only train students so far and so much, a lot depends on ability,” he says.

One reason students might be failing is that the test may be getting trickier. This is the first July exam that asked students questions about a seventh area of law, civil procedure, which adds to a long list of legal concepts that come up in multiple-choice questions.

“We have a harder exam so people will get more questions wrong, and that will bring the pass rates down,” says Deborah Merritt, a law professor at Ohio State University. Asking lesser students to take a more punishing test will leave the country with fewer lawyers and more underused juris doctors, Merritt says. “We are making it harder, in an objective sense, to be admitted to the bar.”

Moeser, the president of the nonprofit that creates the test, says students did not do markedly worse on civil procedure questions than on any other topic the test probed.

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JohannDeMann
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Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school

Postby JohannDeMann » Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:38 pm

yeah gotta keep it 3 years. theres something to be said for interning and working at places while a student to get a feel for what area of the law one might go into.

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mt2165
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Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school

Postby mt2165 » Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:58 pm

chalky wrote:Once again Obama doesn't know wtf he's talking about. The problem isn't that COA is too high or 3 years is too long, the problem is there's too many shit schools awarding law degrees. Some dipshit with a 142 LSAT and a 2.7 uGPA shouldn't be allowed to borrow $200k on the taxpayers' dime when their job prospects are almost non-existent.


So you don't think 60k is too much for one year of LS tuition?

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JohannDeMann
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Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school

Postby JohannDeMann » Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:22 pm

chalky wrote:Once again Obama doesn't know wtf he's talking about. The problem isn't that COA is too high or 3 years is too long, the problem is there's too many shit schools awarding law degrees. Some dipshit with a 142 LSAT and a 2.7 uGPA shouldn't be allowed to borrow $200k on the taxpayers' dime when their job prospects are almost non-existent.


what if they can speak spanish and be a good lawyer representing mexicans who get injured on construction sites? or an immigration lawyer? these people are precisely the loans are targeted at you elitist clown. some people actually practice law with consequences rather than push paper.

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chalky
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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:36 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
chalky wrote:Once again Obama doesn't know wtf he's talking about. The problem isn't that COA is too high or 3 years is too long, the problem is there's too many shit schools awarding law degrees. Some dipshit with a 142 LSAT and a 2.7 uGPA shouldn't be allowed to borrow $200k on the taxpayers' dime when their job prospects are almost non-existent.


what if they can speak spanish and be a good lawyer representing mexicans who get injured on construction sites? or an immigration lawyer? these people are precisely the loans are targeted at you elitist clown. some people actually practice law with consequences rather than push paper.

They can go to People's College of the Law for 4k a year.

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HarlandBassett
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Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school

Postby HarlandBassett » Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:51 pm

one down

LEARNING FOUR LESSONS FROM FAILURE
Posted on October 7, 2015
On October 2, 2015, Northwestern University ended a six-year experiment — the two-year accelerated JD. Dean Daniel B. Rodriguez deserves credit for pulling the plug. Now comes the important part: learning the right lessons from failure.

Lesson #1: Beware of Public Relations Hype

With much fanfare in June 2008, Dean Rodriguez’s predecessor, David Van Zandt, released a document outlining his new long-range strategic vision: “Plan 2008: Preparing Great Leaders for a Changing World.” The centerpiece was an accelerated JD program whereby the school jammed three academic years of ABA-required curriculum into two calendar years.

Van Zandt worked tirelessly to sell the program. From local talk show appearances to speeches at law schools, he never let up. But one of his stated goals should have generated concern. Even as the market for lawyers plummeted, his keynote address at a February 2009 Southwestern Law Review symposium explained that he hoped to “tap a different population of students to expand our pool of potential applicants.” In particular, he wanted to “reach those who were planning on going to MBA programs.”

In other words, he offered a prescription for what the profession needed least: more law students who had been on their way to business school until the prospect of a Northwestern accelerated JD appeared.

Lesson #2: Dig Deeper

A program that “accelerated” a student through law school in two years instead of three sounded like an unambiguously good idea. But beyond the superficial appeal were troubling realities.

Students in the program started with a Web-based course even before they arrived on campus. In May, they began full-time study. In the fall, they joined first-year students in the traditional three-year program while also adding an extra course. For anyone on the two-year accelerated path, an already precious commodity — time during the first year to integrate experiences while contemplating one’s place in a diverse, challenging and changing profession — disappeared.

Even worse, Northwestern missed an opportunity. Total tuition for the two-year program was the same as that for the three-year degree. Accelerated students just paid more in tuition each semester. According to Van Zandt, students still benefitted financially because they could enter the job market sooner. Never mind how dismal that market remained.

Lesson #3: Ignore the Spin

Many deans claim to be remaking their schools in ways that respond to the current crisis in legal education. For the sake of the profession, let’s hope that’s true. (But see Lesson #1 above.)

Even so, cramming three years of legal education into two was never particularly creative or innovative. For example, Southwestern Law School started its accelerated JD program in 1974. (Southwestern also has dismal full-time long-term JD-required employment rates for recent graduates.)

After leaving the deanship to become president of the New School in 2010, Van Zandt continued his defense of the Northwestern AJD in an online July 25, 2011 New York Times op-ed. In the process, he earned one of my “Unfortunate Comment Awards.” That was four years ago.

Lesson #4: Beware of Motivated Reasoning

Van Zandt spoke often about the importance of markets and market-based decisions. But it took six years (and a new dean) before Northwestern responded to what the markets were telling it about the AJD. As Dean Rodriguez announced on October 2, the program failed to achieve its aspirational target of 40 AJD students per year (Van Zandt had hoped eventually to enroll 65 AJD students annually):

“[D]ealing with this smaller program,” he said, “has impacted our ability to serve the objectives and needs of all our law students.”

As schools pursue various efforts to reduce the cost and improve the content of legal education, perhaps they’ll learn one more lesson: Don’t wait years to admit a mistake.

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star fox
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Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school

Postby star fox » Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:12 pm

The AJD wasn't a bad idea. They just weren't able to get enough people willing to enroll, probably correlating to the plummet in law school applications generally.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:11 pm

It would have been an even better idea if it had only cost 2 years' worth of tuition rather than 3.




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