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Obama proposes shaving a year from law school
Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:38 am
by Moves like JAGger
http://news.yahoo.com/obama-suggests-sh ... itics.html
"This is probably controversial to say, but what the heck, I'm in my second term," Obama, a Harvard Law School graduate and former law school professor, said to laughter.
"Law schools would probably be wise to think about being two years instead of three years," he said. "In the first two years, young people are learning in the classroom. The third year, they'd be better off clerking or practicing in a firm, even if they weren't getting paid that much. But that step alone would reduce the cost for the student."
let's discuss why this is a great idea.
Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school
Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:44 am
by RedLightGreenLight
only thing thats not terrible about Obama's America
more on-topic: the last 2 years of law school are already a ridiculous farce the way the hiring process is set up. third year is absolutely unnecessary.
Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school
Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:57 am
by Moves like JAGger
I tend to agree. But does it reason that two years of law school means more people wanting to go? If so, doesn't that mean yet MORE lawyers graduating? This would seem to compound an already terrible situation re: the surplus of JDs on the market.
Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school
Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:01 am
by jkpolk
Moves like JAGger wrote:I tend to agree. But does it reason that two years of law school means more people wanting to go? If so, doesn't that mean yet MORE lawyers graduating? This would seem to compound an already terrible situation re: the surplus of JDs on the market.
Cheaper > Higher % employment IMO
Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school
Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:26 am
by Tiago Splitter
Keep the unlimited government loan regime in place and schools will quickly make up the difference with higher tuition for those first two years.
Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school
Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:37 pm
by haus
Tiago Splitter wrote:Keep the unlimited government loan regime in place and schools will quickly make up the difference with higher tuition for those first two years.
I like the President's idea of ranking colleges by outcome and cost, especially if this could impact the amount of money that the schools could get from student loans.
Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:31 am
by Finnpower
Good quote from Obama "They can't find a job. They default. The taxpayer ends up holding the bag. Their credit is ruined, and the for-profit institution is making out like a bandit. That's a problem."
I like the idea personally. If you could shave 1/3 off coa?
I don't necessarily see it happening though. If you look at recent attempts they are pretty poor. You have those 3+3 programs that law school's like Touro recently announced with Florida Coastal. The problem is with that you have to go to Touro, and you save on undergraduate tuition, not lawl school tuition.
Second you have the accelerated JD from schools like NU, Brooklyn, but it only saves a year of col, and ruins summers.
Finally, you have externships and study abroads, clinics the third year, which are neat but don't really solve the problem.
My other final thought is that hypothetically lowering the cost and time to get a law degree would result in a flood of new lawyers in a field that is already crowded. However, we can see that people do not always behave irrationally, per the recent plunge in the numbers of graduates. People can only tolerate poor outcomes for so long, well most anyway.
Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:38 am
by IAFG
Tiago Splitter wrote:Keep the unlimited government loan regime in place and schools will quickly make up the difference with higher tuition for those first two years.
Yup, in which case we're losing our 3L vacation for nothing.
Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:59 am
by haus
If the JD became a regular two year program (no summers, no externships, just 1L & 2L), what impact would this have on bar passage rates for T50 programs (assuming the bar exams did not change)?
Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:35 am
by A. Nony Mouse
Likely none at all. I took almost no bar courses and passed just fine, and everything I did take could have been taken in 2 years (probably 1 1/2).
Also, not sure why going to 2 years would eliminate summers or externships.
Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:46 am
by haus
by no summers/externships I was simply attempting to avoid some of the 'short' JD programs that have been purposed or implemented such as the Vermont Accelerated JD, where summer courses are used to take the number of credits one would have taken as a traditional 3L.
Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:49 am
by A. Nony Mouse
Ah, I get what you mean, sorry.
Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:31 pm
by sf_39
Can the ABA mandate this?
Otherwise what's the incentive from the LS perspective if schools are still getting much more applications than they have spots even outside the T50? They could of course just raise the COA for 4 semesters as well.
Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:35 pm
by Gorki
sf_39 wrote:Can the ABA mandate this?
Otherwise what's the incentive from the LS perspective if schools are still getting much more applications than they have spots even outside the T50? They could of course just raise the COA for 4 semesters as well.
"Can," yes they could make it a necessary part of accreditation?
Will they? No. They refuse to do anything that will benefit students, recent grads, solos, and lower and middle class attys. They are not starting now.
Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:49 pm
by Stinson
I approve of this proposal in that it will allow us to browbeat future generations of law graduates, talking about how much harder it was in our day, giving them shit boomer-style. So we need to start pretending 3L was super serious and difficult immediately.
Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:54 pm
by cinephile
Better idea: cut it down to one year total. And drop Con Law from the curriculum and replace it with Evidence or something useful.
Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school
Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:10 pm
by prezidentv8
cinephile wrote:Better idea: cut it down to one year total. And drop Con Law from the curriculum and replace it with Evidence or something useful.
Didn't take evidence >> ??? >> Litigation
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Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:45 am
by Myself
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Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school
Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:42 pm
by mr. wednesday
Making it two years means you have one summer to work, then your second summer you are doing bar study. Does that mean big firms hire for 1L summer only, based on maybe one semester of grades? If that happens, people will just say 2L is useless too because they already have a job. Or do people still do PI (mostly) 1L summer and then move directly into graduate hiring? Judges would start hiring clerks during 1L too.
I'd rather have 3L be an articling year, like Canada, or internships/clinics where you don't pay tuition just to keep the entire hiring cycle from being so compressed and to give people two summers to try two different things.
Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school
Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:07 pm
by bk1
Finnpower wrote:Good quote from Obama "They can't find a job. They default. The taxpayer ends up holding the bag. Their credit is ruined, and the for-profit institution is making out like a bandit. That's a problem."
At least according to the Taibbi article, the government is still making a profit of student loans. While things might get bad enough that that's no longer true, I think the government should at best break even and ideally lose money on student loans.
That said, I think the for profit schools are much worse for gouging students and taxpayers. Non profit schools aren't much better since they just funnel that money into professor and admin salaries as well as lavish campuses.
Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school
Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:10 pm
by rad lulz
Tiago Splitter wrote:Keep the unlimited government loan regime in place and schools will quickly make up the difference with higher tuition for those first two years.
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Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:25 pm
by Myself
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Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school
Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:29 pm
by mr. wednesday
ajax adonis wrote:rad lulz wrote:Tiago Splitter wrote:Keep the unlimited government loan regime in place and schools will quickly make up the difference with higher tuition for those first two years.
Man, I would love to see some of the bullshit explanations law deans give for raising tuition in a 2-year-law-school scenario.
Here you go:
northwestern wrote:
Northwestern Law prices tuition by the degree pursued rather than the length of enrollment. Therefore, tuition for the Accelerated JD Program is pro-rated to equal the same total cost as the traditional three-year JD Program. Each term will cost approximately 1 1/5 of the three-year amount. Students in this program benefit financially by securing the opportunity cost associated with re-entering the workforce a year sooner and by foregoing one semester of education-related living expenses.
Re: Obama proposes shaving a year from law school
Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:31 pm
by rad lulz
mr. wednesday wrote:ajax adonis wrote:rad lulz wrote:Tiago Splitter wrote:Keep the unlimited government loan regime in place and schools will quickly make up the difference with higher tuition for those first two years.
Man, I would love to see some of the bullshit explanations law deans give for raising tuition in a 2-year-law-school scenario.
Here you go:
northwestern wrote:
Northwestern Law prices tuition by the degree pursued rather than the length of enrollment. Therefore, tuition for the Accelerated JD Program is pro-rated to equal the same total cost as the traditional three-year JD Program. Each term will cost approximately 1 1/5 of the three-year amount. Students in this program benefit financially by securing the opportunity cost associated with re-entering the workforce a year sooner and by foregoing one semester of education-related living expenses.
LOL that's so ridiculous
Can't believe they actually have the balls to say that
They could have at least said "we are cramming the whole degree into 2 years so the price matches."
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Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:34 pm
by Myself
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