Is 30k a good salary for a law grad?

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Gorki
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Re: Is 30k a good salary for a law grad?

Postby Gorki » Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:27 am

Blessedassurance wrote:why do people keep repeating the "if you really want to be a lawyer" bullshit? What does that even mean?

I imagine its like saying "if you really want to be in international relations" when the only gig available to you is working for a shady storefront NGO in the Central African Republic.

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Moves like JAGger
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Re: Is 30k a good salary for a law grad?

Postby Moves like JAGger » Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:32 pm

Uhaul offered me 40,500 to start as a management trainee. It's actually 20/hr base with the possibility of overtime. Will be giving notice to my present employer as soon as I pass the background check and drug screen.
Last edited by Moves like JAGger on Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Moves like JAGger
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Re: Is 30k a good salary for a law grad?

Postby Moves like JAGger » Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:39 pm

Blessedassurance wrote:why do people keep repeating the "if you really want to be a lawyer" bullshit? What does that even mean?


I think it means that for many, pursuing a JD is not a purely rational economic decision, and that realizing a life-long dream may have value apart from one's net income potential post-graduation.

Void
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Re: Is 30k a good salary for a law grad?

Postby Void » Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:43 pm

Blessedassurance wrote:why do people keep repeating the "if you really want to be a lawyer" bullshit? What does that even mean?


News flash: some people actually have career aspirations that are not entirely dependent upon maximizing income. If there were a forum for kindergarten teachers it would be ridiculous for people to post "if you can only get minimum wage for that entry level kindergarten teacher job you may as well just work at Taco Bell." Some of us went to law school because we actually want to do this; even if the pay isn't great.

If you only went to law school because you wanted to make a lot of money, you should have gone to business school where they actually teach you how to make money.

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Moves like JAGger
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Re: Is 30k a good salary for a law grad?

Postby Moves like JAGger » Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:55 pm

Void wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:why do people keep repeating the "if you really want to be a lawyer" bullshit? What does that even mean?


News flash: some people actually have career aspirations that are not entirely dependent upon maximizing income. If there were a forum for kindergarten teachers it would be ridiculous for people to post "if you can only get minimum wage for that entry level kindergarten teacher job you may as well just work at Taco Bell." Some of us went to law school because we actually want to do this; even if the pay isn't great.

If you only went to law school because you wanted to make a lot of money, you should have gone to business school where they actually teach you how to make money.


Well said.

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cinephile
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Re: Is 30k a good salary for a law grad?

Postby cinephile » Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:11 pm

Moves like JAGger wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:why do people keep repeating the "if you really want to be a lawyer" bullshit? What does that even mean?


I think it means that for many, pursuing a JD is not a purely rational economic decision, and that realizing a life-long dream may have value apart from one's net income potential post-graduation.


But no one would ever say this to an aspiring dancer/actor/artist/etc. Because we know those dreams will only ever be dreams and it is really foolish to try to pursue those full-time. Instead, we'd tell the person to get a day job and pursue their passion as a hobby. There are volunteer lawyer organizations that have malpractice insurance that'll cover you as a pro bono volunteer. So just volunteer one day a week or month or whatever and get a normal day job.

Gorki
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Re: Is 30k a good salary for a law grad?

Postby Gorki » Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:22 pm

cinephile wrote:
Moves like JAGger wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:why do people keep repeating the "if you really want to be a lawyer" bullshit? What does that even mean?


I think it means that for many, pursuing a JD is not a purely rational economic decision, and that realizing a life-long dream may have value apart from one's net income potential post-graduation.


But no one would ever say this to an aspiring dancer/actor/artist/etc. Because we know those dreams will only ever be dreams and it is really foolish to try to pursue those full-time. Instead, we'd tell the person to get a day job and pursue their passion as a hobby. There are volunteer lawyer organizations that have malpractice insurance that'll cover you as a pro bono volunteer. So just volunteer one day a week or month or whatever and get a normal day job.


The difference being that now the legal profession is tossed in with dancing, acting, and being an artist. This profession is a flame. Your point is valid, but yeah this profession is a flame and not worth it. 0Ls are on notice.

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Re: Is 30k a good salary for a law grad?

Postby Moves like JAGger » Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:36 pm

cinephile wrote:
Moves like JAGger wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:why do people keep repeating the "if you really want to be a lawyer" bullshit? What does that even mean?


I think it means that for many, pursuing a JD is not a purely rational economic decision, and that realizing a life-long dream may have value apart from one's net income potential post-graduation.


But no one would ever say this to an aspiring dancer/actor/artist/etc. Because we know those dreams will only ever be dreams and it is really foolish to try to pursue those full-time. Instead, we'd tell the person to get a day job and pursue their passion as a hobby. There are volunteer lawyer organizations that have malpractice insurance that'll cover you as a pro bono volunteer. So just volunteer one day a week or month or whatever and get a normal day job.


Comparing someone whose career ambition is to star on Glee to someone who wants to get a JD really doesn't compute.

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cinephile
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Re: Is 30k a good salary for a law grad?

Postby cinephile » Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:48 pm

Moves like JAGger wrote:
Comparing someone whose career ambition is to star on Glee to someone who wants to get a JD really doesn't compute.


Lots of people manage to survive teaching dance classes, or piano lessons, or doing gigs here and there. Just as lots of lawyers manage to hang their own shingle or do doc review. But in neither scenario is that sort of behavior prudent. We'd all be better off pursuing a career that will allow us to live comfortable and if that's not your passion, then just practice your passion in your free time. If you're going to live with constant financial insecurity, that is going to damage your quality of life. I'm not talking about you because clearly you have a JAG job lined up. But half of all law students will never have a job in the legal field and many of those who do will be in positions that will cause them a lot of stress and sacrifice and heartache. Just give up now and move on with your lives. Do some pro bono when you get the chance if legal work really matters to you.

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Re: Is 30k a good salary for a law grad?

Postby Moves like JAGger » Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:52 pm

cinephile wrote:
Moves like JAGger wrote:
Comparing someone whose career ambition is to star on Glee to someone who wants to get a JD really doesn't compute.


Lots of people manage to survive teaching dance classes, or piano lessons, or doing gigs here and there. Just as lots of lawyers manage to hang their own shingle or do doc review. But in neither scenario is that sort of behavior prudent. We'd all be better off pursuing a career that will allow us to live comfortable and if that's not your passion, then just practice your passion in your free time. If you're going to live with constant financial insecurity, that is going to damage your quality of life. I'm not talking about you because clearly you have a JAG job lined up. But half of all law students will never have a job in the legal field and many of those who do will be in positions that will cause them a lot of stress and sacrifice and heartache. Just give up now and move on with your lives. Do some pro bono when you get the chance if legal work really matters to you.


Tough to find fault with this. Wish it weren't so.

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Re: Is 30k a good salary for a law grad?

Postby Gorki » Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:57 pm

cinephile wrote:
Moves like JAGger wrote:
Comparing someone whose career ambition is to star on Glee to someone who wants to get a JD really doesn't compute.


Lots of people manage to survive teaching dance classes, or piano lessons, or doing gigs here and there. Just as lots of lawyers manage to hang their own shingle or do doc review. But in neither scenario is that sort of behavior prudent. We'd all be better off pursuing a career that will allow us to live comfortable and if that's not your passion, then just practice your passion in your free time. If you're going to live with constant financial insecurity, that is going to damage your quality of life. I'm not talking about you because clearly you have a JAG job lined up. But half of all law students will never have a job in the legal field and many of those who do will be in positions that will cause them a lot of stress and sacrifice and heartache. Just give up now and move on with your lives. Do some pro bono when you get the chance if legal work really matters to you.


I have debated giving up now for a while. Fuck 3l, fuck law skoo, and fuck everything.

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cinephile
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Re: Is 30k a good salary for a law grad?

Postby cinephile » Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:19 pm

I intend to take my own advice. And to everyone else, best of luck in whichever direction you decide to go.

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Re: Is 30k a good salary for a law grad?

Postby Void » Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:30 pm

cinephile wrote:
Moves like JAGger wrote:
Comparing someone whose career ambition is to star on Glee to someone who wants to get a JD really doesn't compute.


Lots of people manage to survive teaching dance classes, or piano lessons, or doing gigs here and there. Just as lots of lawyers manage to hang their own shingle or do doc review. But in neither scenario is that sort of behavior prudent. We'd all be better off pursuing a career that will allow us to live comfortable and if that's not your passion, then just practice your passion in your free time. If you're going to live with constant financial insecurity, that is going to damage your quality of life. I'm not talking about you because clearly you have a JAG job lined up. But half of all law students will never have a job in the legal field and many of those who do will be in positions that will cause them a lot of stress and sacrifice and heartache. Just give up now and move on with your lives. Do some pro bono when you get the chance if legal work really matters to you.


I disagree with this. I don't know you but I assume you're a 3L or a recent graduate and you're already throwing in the towel before the fight has even begun. If you started law school believing that you would just be handed a job upon graduation, you're a moron. It takes time and effort to find work, and believe it or not, you actually have to work towards success. Tyhe difference between artists and lawyers is that artists have a .0001% shot at ever succeeding on their art alone. Sure, it might be the case that 50% of lawyers aren't employed as lawyers, but even that dismal number is downright encouraging compared to your chances at success in any of the hobby fields you mentioned. People these days are just upset that law has become like every other profession (aside from medicine and engineering) in that a successful career isn't a guarantee. But hey, feel free to continue your temper tantrum while the rest of us swallow our pride and try to find entryways into the profession.

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cinephile
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Re: Is 30k a good salary for a law grad?

Postby cinephile » Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:25 pm

^ Funny. That's exactly what harpsichord professors tell their students.

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Re: Is 30k a good salary for a law grad?

Postby Void » Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:43 pm

cinephile wrote:^ Funny. That's exactly what harpsichord professors tell their students.


Go find me a harpsichordist who is bitching online about being paid "only" $30k for his first harpsichording job out of harpsichord school, and I'll find your argument credible.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Is 30k a good salary for a law grad?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:55 pm

The thing is, I don't think anyone goes into harpsichording (or other music/art fields) because they don't have any interest in the work but they think it will be a good living, and there are plenty of people who go to law school for that reason. So people who went to law school for the good living, and people who went to law school because they really wanted to be a lawyer, probably weigh things differently when considering whether to stay in the field or not.

(Also, I know people who survive teaching dance classes or piano lessons or doing gigs, and enjoy it because they make a living doing what they love. Just because they're not at the Met doesn't make the work not worthwhile to them. If they're starving, obviously that's one thing. But a lot more people make a living off music than perform at the Met. You may not choose to do that, but it doesn't mean it's a bad choice for everyone.)

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Re: Is 30k a good salary for a law grad?

Postby Blessedassurance » Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:17 am

Moves like JAGger wrote:
Void wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:why do people keep repeating the "if you really want to be a lawyer" bullshit? What does that even mean?


News flash: some people actually have career aspirations that are not entirely dependent upon maximizing income. If there were a forum for kindergarten teachers it would be ridiculous for people to post "if you can only get minimum wage for that entry level kindergarten teacher job you may as well just work at Taco Bell." Some of us went to law school because we actually want to do this; even if the pay isn't great.

If you only went to law school because you wanted to make a lot of money, you should have gone to business school where they actually teach you how to make money.


Well said.


why are you taking the u-haul job then?

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Re: Is 30k a good salary for a law grad?

Postby Void » Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:19 am

Blessedassurance wrote:
Moves like JAGger wrote:
Void wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:why do people keep repeating the "if you really want to be a lawyer" bullshit? What does that even mean?


News flash: some people actually have career aspirations that are not entirely dependent upon maximizing income. If there were a forum for kindergarten teachers it would be ridiculous for people to post "if you can only get minimum wage for that entry level kindergarten teacher job you may as well just work at Taco Bell." Some of us went to law school because we actually want to do this; even if the pay isn't great.

If you only went to law school because you wanted to make a lot of money, you should have gone to business school where they actually teach you how to make money.


Well said.


why are you taking the u-haul job then?


U-haul is just until his JAG gig starts up.

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Blessedassurance
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Re: Is 30k a good salary for a law grad?

Postby Blessedassurance » Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:35 am

Void wrote: U-haul is just until his JAG gig starts up.


yes but why would he choose a u-haul gig over a legal one if "he really wants to be a lawyer"?

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haus
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Re: Is 30k a good salary for a law grad?

Postby haus » Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:40 am

Blessedassurance wrote:
Void wrote: U-haul is just until his JAG gig starts up.


yes but why would he choose a u-haul gig over a legal one if "he really wants to be a lawyer"?

Last time I checked a law degrees does not come stamped with a 'best if used by' date.

Void
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Re: Is 30k a good salary for a law grad?

Postby Void » Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:44 am

Blessedassurance wrote:
Void wrote: U-haul is just until his JAG gig starts up.


yes but why would he choose a u-haul gig over a legal one if "he really wants to be a lawyer"?


JAG starts in a couple of months, IIRC. How is he supposed to find legal work that only lasts a couple of months? Of are you just trying to make some kind of point?

Now that you mention it though, I did find it confusing that he kept updating the thread with details of his temporary UHaul gig. Why did that ever matter, if he has JAG lined up? What is this thread even here for???

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Re: Is 30k a good salary for a law grad?

Postby NYstate » Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:00 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:The thing is, I don't think anyone goes into harpsichording (or other music/art fields) because they don't have any interest in the work but they think it will be a good living, and there are plenty of people who go to law school for that reason. So people who went to law school for the good living, and people who went to law school because they really wanted to be a lawyer, probably weigh things differently when considering whether to stay in the field or not.

(Also, I know people who survive teaching dance classes or piano lessons or doing gigs, and enjoy it because they make a living doing what they love. Just because they're not at the Met doesn't make the work not worthwhile to them. If they're starving, obviously that's one thing. But a lot more people make a living off music than perform at the Met. You may not choose to do that, but it doesn't mean it's a bad choice for everyone.)


What is the law equivalent of teaching classes or doing gigs? I'm curious because those jobs seem much less stressful an time consuming. I couldn't think of an equivalent comparison.

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manofjustice
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Re: Is 30k a good salary for a law grad?

Postby manofjustice » Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:09 am

Honestly, I thought this was a flame. Is there a bonus? Commission? This is real?

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Is 30k a good salary for a law grad?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:09 am

Well, it's not my analogy, but I think cinephile equated those jobs to doc review and hanging your own shingle. I suppose hanging your own shingle is a bit like making your living from gig to gig; teaching is probably a lot more satisfying for an artist/musician than doc review is for a lawyer, though.

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Moves like JAGger
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Re: Is 30k a good salary for a law grad?

Postby Moves like JAGger » Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:22 am

Void wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:
Void wrote: U-haul is just until his JAG gig starts up.


yes but why would he choose a u-haul gig over a legal one if "he really wants to be a lawyer"?


JAG starts in a couple of months, IIRC. How is he supposed to find legal work that only lasts a couple of months? Of are you just trying to make some kind of point?

Now that you mention it though, I did find it confusing that he kept updating the thread with details of his temporary UHaul gig. Why did that ever matter, if he has JAG lined up? What is this thread even here for???


It's just my personal anecdote that I chose to share with anyone interested. I posted details about the entry level u-haul gig because I was amazed that it could pay better than a law clerk position at a firm in Manhattan where I've worked for two years. It was surprising to me, but obviously not to others.

If I didn't have another legal opportunity lined up, I wouldn't be taking the U-haul gig...even if it offered $60,000. I also would've pushed for more money at the job I've got now. Coudld've made an appeal to the senior partner and gotten 40 or 45, maybe. That would be somewhat liveable.

It's a struggle out there, for sure. Good luck to all who are searching and thanks for reading.




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