MVPBer VERY anxious about NY Bar Exam Results

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AnxiousMVPBer
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MVPBer VERY anxious about NY Bar Exam Results

Postby AnxiousMVPBer » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:24 pm

Hi all,

I realize that stress and anxiety after the bar exam are not unique to me, but I'm really having trouble letting go as I'm certain I failed the exam. I realize this is also a common perception, but I can't shake the feeling that I failed and simply don't know what to do with myself. People's advice to exercise or get away or simply not dwell on the exam is not working.

As to prep, I did Barbri, but only watched the videos or attended lectures up until the July 4th weekend. Foolish in retrospect, but I did NO assignments outside of lectures, and only started really studying and doing practice questions and essays on July 6th. At that point I studied probably a solid 8 hours a day with the Conviser Mini Outlines and my fill-in-the-blank notes. In total, I probably only did 800 MBE questions (generally at or just below the Barbri average in terms of % correct), and only fully wrote out a handful of essays, though I did read all of the Released Essays and their answers in the Barbri book.

As to the exam itself, on the NY day, I did OK but not great on the essays and MPT. Nothing was shocking, but I did screw up at least 3-4 laws and a couple issues, but I made sure to do an analysis even when I wasn't certain of the law or the exact issue. The MPT was fine. On the MBE, I was simply pummeled. I realize many people felt this way, but going through the posts where people have stitched together 80 questions or so...yikes, I got maybe %50 right out of those that seem to have a consensus.

I realize now I should have studied far more, but I felt prepared at the time for at least an "average" performance--or so I thought. Any constructive thoughts or similar feelings or situations out there? I mean people who aren't semi-freaking out, but legitimately feel they failed. Please be constructive and forward looking, I'm already beating myself up for preparing too little and feel like I can't function or think of anything else (yes, I get that BigLaw will be more stressful, but not looking to get into that issue here.)

For what it's worth, I was just below median (mix of B's, B+'s and some A-'s at MVPB), and have a job lined up at a NY firm.

Constructive Thoughts or Commiseration?

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5ky
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Re: MVPBer VERY anxious about NY Bar Exam Results

Postby 5ky » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:31 pm

There's nothing to say except the odds are overwhelmingly in your favor as a medianish student from a t10.

It's been 2 weeks, you have to let it go.

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Bikeflip
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Re: MVPBer VERY anxious about NY Bar Exam Results

Postby Bikeflip » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:36 pm

5ky wrote:It's been 2 weeks, you have to let it go.



This. Ain't a damn thing you can do. Relax and take some time to do something non lawl related.

AnxiousMVPBer
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Re: MVPBer VERY anxious about NY Bar Exam Results

Postby AnxiousMVPBer » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:50 pm

Appreciate these comments, and know they're both true. I was never high strung or anxious in law school--not even during 1L exams-- and have worked in high stress environments before, so perhaps this anxiety is compounded by the fear that I don't generally react like this and therefore something must have actually gone terribly wrong. In any case, I know there's not much to say by way of advice, and perhaps I just needed to vent in public. Appreciate it.

piree1223
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Re: MVPBer VERY anxious about NY Bar Exam Results

Postby piree1223 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:50 pm

I know exactly how you feel. I was under-prepared, but somehow felt confident going in. Destroyed on day 1, and probably did worse on day 2. And I've been dealing with all that "I definitely overstudied. That was a cake" bs. But think of it this way: even if you got only 50% or so of the ones discussed here right, these are generally harder Qs that stuck in people's mind. Remember, on the MBE, you can miss 50-60 questions and still get a very decent scaled score. If you were median at your school, you know how to write an essay and probably did better than average. No one gets all of the issues anyway.

AnxiousMVPBer
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Re: MVPBer VERY anxious about NY Bar Exam Results

Postby AnxiousMVPBer » Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:08 pm

Hah well I don't know that I came close to Destroying on Day 1, but glad to hear you feel like you killed it. I'm guessing this will see you through any MBE deficits. And I hope you're right about people rehashing the tougher questions. Let's just hope I nailed the gimmes. Meantime, I've moved to NYC in anticipation of a firm job I'd like to keep sans a Feb retake, and at least there are endless bars open until 4 to wander between, $10 drafts aside. Seems the only way to deal--not the healthiest prescription, but all that works this far.

piree1223
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Re: MVPBer VERY anxious about NY Bar Exam Results

Postby piree1223 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 pm

sorry my past post was ambiguous. I "got" destroyed on Day 1 :(

09042014
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Re: MVPBer VERY anxious about NY Bar Exam Results

Postby 09042014 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:22 pm

Getting 50-50% on the hard questions is good. Stop being a blubbering pussy.

AnxiousMVPBer
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Re: MVPBer VERY anxious about NY Bar Exam Results

Postby AnxiousMVPBer » Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:32 pm

Ah yes, He who appears to be King Douche of these forums chimes in. I'm guessing blubbering is more akin to DF's IRL persona, hence the overcompensation from what I've read.

AnxiousMVPBer
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Re: MVPBer VERY anxious about NY Bar Exam Results

Postby AnxiousMVPBer » Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:33 pm

Nevertheless, the initial constructive input is well taken DF.

09042014
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Re: MVPBer VERY anxious about NY Bar Exam Results

Postby 09042014 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:36 pm

AnxiousMVPBer wrote:Ah yes, He who appears to be King Douche of these forums chimes in. I'm guessing blubbering is more akin to DF's IRL persona, hence the overcompensation from what I've read.


I can't deny my blubber having tendencies.

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IAFG
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Re: MVPBer VERY anxious about NY Bar Exam Results

Postby IAFG » Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:38 pm

AnxiousMVPBer wrote:Please be constructive and forward looking

Oh god just die

If you want a therapist or life coach, go hire one

AnxiousMVPBer
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Re: MVPBer VERY anxious about NY Bar Exam Results

Postby AnxiousMVPBer » Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:42 pm

Hahhah I love that those who have over 10,000 posts on an Internet forum are the first to feign toughness and wit. Move along now.

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IAFG
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Re: MVPBer VERY anxious about NY Bar Exam Results

Postby IAFG » Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:44 pm

AnxiousMVPBer wrote:Hahhah I love that those who have over 10,000 posts on an Internet forum are the first to feign toughness and wit. Move along now.

Haha yeah early adopters to a popular communication medium are so beta

AnxiousMVPBer
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Re: MVPBer VERY anxious about NY Bar Exam Results

Postby AnxiousMVPBer » Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:55 pm

IAFG wrote: a popular communication medium


Hahhah. A stranger, and yet I can almost hear you stuttering through this awkward terminology in a social situation. And yes, you are quite beta, old sport.

NYstate
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Re: MVPBer VERY anxious about NY Bar Exam Results

Postby NYstate » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:03 pm

Wait, you posted asking for help and now you are attacking people?

Fwiw: don't compare the grading of essays to law school detail. You can get points even if you don't get every element. The grading is much easier.

If you did well on the multi-state you should be fine.

Worse case, if you fail, you can retake. My firm allows one fail and I think most firms do the same.

AnxiousMVPBer
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Re: MVPBer VERY anxious about NY Bar Exam Results

Postby AnxiousMVPBer » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:07 pm

NYstate wrote:Wait, you posted asking for help and now you are attacking people?

Fwiw: don't compare the grading of essays to law school detail. You can get points even if you don't get every element. The grading is much easier.

If you did well on the multi-state you should be fine.

Worse case, if you fail, you can retake. My firm allows one fail and I think most firms do the same.


Did you read the above exchanges? The attacks came to me, amusing as they were. In any case, I appreciate your constructive thoughts on this. Here's hoping Worst Case doesn't materialize, but you're right, I don't think my firm has a one-shot and done policy.

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Old Gregg
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Re: MVPBer VERY anxious about NY Bar Exam Results

Postby Old Gregg » Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:02 am

I don't think my firm has a one-shot and done policy.


Many don't have such a policy, but you will be judged very negatively for failing and your odds of being prematurely pushed out increase significantly.

rad lulz
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Re: MVPBer VERY anxious about NY Bar Exam Results

Postby rad lulz » Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:12 am

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Last edited by rad lulz on Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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vanwinkle
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Re: MVPBer VERY anxious about NY Bar Exam Results

Postby vanwinkle » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:11 am

I know plenty of people that were "sure" they failed and then didn't, myself included.

Also, being a dick to the people responding won't exactly encourage better responses.

Jacques_Bentley
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Re: MVPBer VERY anxious about NY Bar Exam Results

Postby Jacques_Bentley » Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:17 am

Fresh Prince wrote:
I don't think my firm has a one-shot and done policy.


Many don't have such a policy, but you will be judged very negatively for failing and your odds of being prematurely pushed out increase significantly.


Is this really accurate? My impression was that there is not really much of a stigma attached to failing the bar, unless you fail it multiple times. Flukes are possible; some very smart people fail, and many not-so-smart people pass. What if you had the bad luck of becoming ill the day of the exam? Etc.

Jacques_Bentley
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Re: MVPBer VERY anxious about NY Bar Exam Results

Postby Jacques_Bentley » Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:39 am

AnxiousMVPBer wrote:I realize that stress and anxiety after the bar exam are not unique to me, but I'm really having trouble letting go as I'm certain I failed the exam. I realize this is also a common perception, but I can't shake the feeling that I failed and simply don't know what to do with myself. People's advice to exercise or get away or simply not dwell on the exam is not working.


This is an almost universal feeling. As far as the advice "not working" -- have you tried to follow it (exercise, diet, vacation, etc.)? Give it a shot if you haven't.

AnxiousMVPBer wrote:As to prep, I did Barbri, but only watched the videos or attended lectures up until the July 4th weekend. Foolish in retrospect, but I did NO assignments outside of lectures, and only started really studying and doing practice questions and essays on July 6th. At that point I studied probably a solid 8 hours a day with the Conviser Mini Outlines and my fill-in-the-blank notes. In total, I probably only did 800 MBE questions (generally at or just below the Barbri average in terms of % correct), and only fully wrote out a handful of essays, though I did read all of the Released Essays and their answers in the Barbri book.


This sounds like more than enough, IMHO. The fact of the matter is that Barbri assigns way too much work. It's simply unrealistic. The Barbri essays are beyond worthless. They're vastly more difficult than the actual essays and they often test obscure doctrine. The model answers are also very inconsistent -- some of them are weak and incomplete, others are impossibly thorough. Barbri's grading/feedback process seems like a lame gimmick designed to make you think you don't know anything and are destined to fail. But they have to cater to the lowest common denominator -- people who don't want to pick up a book all summer, people who barely graduated law school who lack the ability to write a proper essay -- because that is the only way they will be able to get those people to pass.

AnxiousMVPBer wrote:As to the exam itself, on the NY day, I did OK but not great on the essays and MPT. Nothing was shocking, but I did screw up at least 3-4 laws and a couple issues, but I made sure to do an analysis even when I wasn't certain of the law or the exact issue. The MPT was fine. On the MBE, I was simply pummeled. I realize many people felt this way, but going through the posts where people have stitched together 80 questions or so...yikes, I got maybe %50 right out of those that seem to have a consensus.


This year's MBE was significantly more difficult than the ones administered in the recent past. I practiced on actual past released MBE's and easily scored around 90% correct, but on this exam I felt like I got half of them wrong. The questions were just much, much trickier. I predict that the national average score will be sharply reduced this year. The curve is our friend here, however. We're not trying to reach the top 25%; we just need to avoid the bottom 25%. (Or thereabouts.)

One of the few useful things a Barbri lecturer said to us (paraphrasing): When you are panicking about the bar, STOP for a moment, and think about all of the lawyers you know. If they passed the bar, so can/did you.

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5ky
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Re: MVPBer VERY anxious about NY Bar Exam Results

Postby 5ky » Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:58 am

Jacques_Bentley wrote:
This year's MBE was significantly more difficult than the ones administered in the recent past. I practiced on actual past released MBE's and easily scored around 90% correct, but on this exam I felt like I got half of them wrong. The questions were just much, much trickier. I predict that the national average score will be sharply reduced this year. The curve is our friend here, however. We're not trying to reach the top 25%; we just need to avoid the bottom 25%. (Or thereabouts.)

One of the few useful things a Barbri lecturer said to us (paraphrasing): When you are panicking about the bar, STOP for a moment, and think about all of the lawyers you know. If they passed the bar, so can/did you.


this is objectively untrue, duder.

also, released MBE questions aren't like the LSAT, they don't release all of their questions or even a representative set.

Jacques_Bentley
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Re: MVPBer VERY anxious about NY Bar Exam Results

Postby Jacques_Bentley » Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:40 am

5ky wrote:
Jacques_Bentley wrote:
This year's MBE was significantly more difficult than the ones administered in the recent past. I practiced on actual past released MBE's and easily scored around 90% correct, but on this exam I felt like I got half of them wrong. The questions were just much, much trickier. I predict that the national average score will be sharply reduced this year. The curve is our friend here, however. We're not trying to reach the top 25%; we just need to avoid the bottom 25%. (Or thereabouts.)

One of the few useful things a Barbri lecturer said to us (paraphrasing): When you are panicking about the bar, STOP for a moment, and think about all of the lawyers you know. If they passed the bar, so can/did you.


this is objectively untrue, duder.

also, released MBE questions aren't like the LSAT, they don't release all of their questions or even a representative set.


The ones I looked at were described to me as "full actual MBEs." In retrospect, it is quite possible that in the stress of bar study I was misinformed about this (EDIT: I was) and/or took this too uncritically. If so, then thank you for the clarification. However, I can say that there were several hundreds of questions, and that I found them to be noticeably easier than the ones on this year's MBE. I suppose they may have deliberately selected only the easiest questions and assembled them into a deceptively easy exam, but I don't see why they would do this. Even if they were the easy questions, they were still much easier than this year's "easy" questions. The nature and design of the questions themselves just seemed much more straightforward.

So, I will stand by my prediction that this year's national average *raw* score will be substantially lower than in the recent past. Feel free to bring up this post in a few months. If I am wrong (and I hope I am!), I will happily admit defeat.

EDIT: I just saw this relevant thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=213870

It seems that NCBE claims that these sets of questions are fairly representative -- "The material presented in the MBE-OPE is very similar in content representation and format to the Multistate Bar Examination (MBE), and is intended to familiarize candidates with MBE-style questions". But it also appears that there is some debate among TLSers as to whether this is accurate. To the extent that it is accurate, however, there can be little question that this year's exam was far more difficult.

EDIT2: Just realized NCBE gave themselves an out with the way they phrased this. The material is supposed to be "very similar in content representation" -- "content," in this context, *could* be read to include difficulty, but it might also be read to mean only substantive law but *not* difficulty. Sneaky, sneaky...
Last edited by Jacques_Bentley on Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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BaiAilian2013
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Re: MVPBer VERY anxious about NY Bar Exam Results

Postby BaiAilian2013 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:01 pm

1) When you ask for help, you shouldn't be a dick to those who are mildly rude while helping you, especially when they are reputable posters.

2) From your description of the essay day, the MBE, and your performance on the Barbri practice questions, it really sounds like you passed.

3) FWIW, I also was mentally shaken by bar prep in a way that I never was by school (but I'm pretty sure I passed the actual exam). I think it's because the stakes are so high. Yeah, most firms will let you take it again, but you have to study for February WHILE working, so that's still a pretty scary prospect - much worse than getting a B in some class. So, I don't think the fact that this type of freakout is rare for you is particularly persuasive evidence, because the bar is sort of a unique experience IMO. Some people find it easier than school because the material is easier, but other people, myself included, find it a lot scarier.




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