Bartending during 1L a mistake?

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can you work during 1L year

Working part time is feasible
29
41%
Working part time is a huge mistake
42
59%
 
Total votes: 71

Volake
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Re: Bartending during 1L a mistake?

Postby Volake » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:54 am

Although you may be able to do well even with the job competing with law school study for your time, I wouldn't risk it if I could avoid it. The time investment you put into your 1L performance will likely pay dividends over your life that far exceed whatever you could make working part-time for a year or a semester.

RodneyRuxin
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Re: Bartending during 1L a mistake?

Postby RodneyRuxin » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:21 am

Clearlynotstefan wrote:
NotMyRealName09 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
So, anything - literally anything - you do that takes time away from (1) studying, (2) maintaining close personal relationships (like a wife, boyfriend/girlfriend - that's it, forget mom and friends, they'll understand), and (3) zoning your brain out from the stress of (1) and (2), is a bad thing. If, to be happy, you require nights at the bar, you should have gotten that out of your system in undergrad.

So it's really your call. While you are working, someone is studying, chilling the girlfriend out so she won't bother him while he continues to study, video gaming and then sleeping. That person was me, and I aced it. So just one person's view here.
lol wat. Is this a serious post?

If so your classmates must love you.


Well, I exaggerated a little, but for context, I knew going into 1l year how important that first semester was. I commuted to school, one hour each way. I was already engaged when I began, so I had no need to socialize, and as an introvert generally, I didn't give one fuck about making friends in law school. They were all my enemies (figuratively) because they had to get out of my way on the curve so I could be on top. And I knew I was not a social studier, so no group studying for me.

So frankly I didn't really interact with law school people because I didn't need to.

It not like I was a dick to anyone or anything, I just showed up, went to class, and went home to study. I was always friendly, and - ok - I made a few friends just by being next to them all the time. But I knew why I was there - I needed to make BANK because I like money. And at a school like MSU College of Law, you had to dominate to land a large firm job through OCI.

I was #1 in my class after my first semester, and i never told a soul at my law school.

Like I said, that was one view. i don't need people to be happy (except my woman, for love and affection), and it was a big help not being worried about making friends, because I have enough from before law school.

Still sound insufferable.



This.

I want to punch you. So. Hard.

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hyakku
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Re: Bartending during 1L a mistake?

Postby hyakku » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:48 am

jdb2013 wrote:
hyakku wrote:
OP, I think you should first take an honest assement of yourself. If you've done well your entire life not studying 24/7 then I personally think taking a bartending job and quitting before finals would be awesome and easily doable. I really don't advocate most people drastically changing study methods upon entering LS unless your study methods didn't produce great results in the past.

If you like to take a lot of notes / reread things or review them though, you probably shouldn't do it as I found that most people that spend a lot of time studying 1L year before finals do so by outlining, briefing and rereading cases. Don't work if that's your style of learning imo.



this is basically my sentiment, i've got 5 years work experience already in a demanding field and I find the concept of filling every waking moment with studying to be detrimental. Many people on this forum seem to express that they have downtime for video games, drinking, frisbee... whatever. I just figured that instead of spending 16 hours with my non-existent wife I could mix up some drinks and afford a slightly higher quality of life.

I guess the solution is pretty straightforward. Get a job, recognize my priorities, and quit when it feels like it may get in the way.


Yea man, I think you'll be fine. I went K - JD but I've been working to help support my mother / myself through school since I was about 15, so I've grown accustomed to managing work and school. I think with 5 years of experience under your belt you'll be in an even better place than I was in terms of determining when you should pull back from work. There really is alot of free time the beginning of 1L (not that it's a bad thing, but the way some people put it its like you go to class, read all day, go to sleep and repeat ad naseum).

One thing though, if you're going to do this, make sure to keep up with yor readings and stuff. I don't think you need to be consistently taking notes or briefing, but if you are going to devote time to working, you don't want to have to spend time catching up when it comes time for finals, so be sure to stay on top of your shit and I think you'll be fine. Plus, it would've been great to have a bartender friend 1L year; with your non-existent wife I see no reason NOT to take advantage of the freedom you've got and enjoy yourself a little bit.

To the #1 guy, damn man, you're a bit too intense for me but to each his own.

NotMyRealName09
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Re: Bartending during 1L a mistake?

Postby NotMyRealName09 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:29 pm

RodneyRuxin wrote:This.

I want to punch you. So. Hard.


That's why I don't want to be your friend.

NotMyRealName09
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Re: Bartending during 1L a mistake?

Postby NotMyRealName09 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:36 pm

hyakku wrote:To the #1 guy, damn man, you're a bit too intense for me but to each his own.


It's funny because I swear to god, law school me as I describe it here has no relation to real-life, non-law school me. That was how I was because I had a singular goal, and I achieved it, kept my head down, and knocked it out. Law school was a game - a rigged game - and you had to work the rules to win. I didn't want to be that way, but that was the system, and that was how I had to be to win. Don't hate the player.

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romothesavior
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Re: Bartending during 1L a mistake?

Postby romothesavior » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:46 pm

NotMyRealName09 wrote:
hyakku wrote:To the #1 guy, damn man, you're a bit too intense for me but to each his own.


It's funny because I swear to god, law school me as I describe it here has no relation to real-life, non-law school me. That was how I was because I had a singular goal, and I achieved it, kept my head down, and knocked it out. Law school was a game - a rigged game - and you had to work the rules to win. I didn't want to be that way, but that was the system, and that was how I had to be to win. Don't hate the player.

I'm very glad that there aren't many people like you at my school. Good that you kicked ass in LS, but you still sound like a miserable person to be around.

OP and other 0Ls, you really don't need to act or live like this to do well in law school.

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lawhopeful10
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Re: Bartending during 1L a mistake?

Postby lawhopeful10 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:58 pm

NotMyRealName09 wrote:Can it be done? Sure, anything can be done. Should it be done? I say no. Now if you cannot afford to live without doing this, well, alright, but it's not ideal.

If you don't know this yet, first semester 1L year is the single most important semester of your life. Your grades from that semester essentially dictate the trajectory of your law school career. If you ace it, employers fight over you. If you don't, you fight to get an interview. It is that simple, it really is.

So, anything - literally anything - you do that takes time away from (1) studying, (2) maintaining close personal relationships (like a wife, boyfriend/girlfriend - that's it, forget mom and friends, they'll understand), and (3) zoning your brain out from the stress of (1) and (2), is a bad thing. If, to be happy, you require nights at the bar, you should have gotten that out of your system in undergrad.

So it's really your call. While you are working, someone is studying, chilling the girlfriend out so she won't bother him while he continues to study, video gaming and then sleeping. That person was me, and I aced it. So just one person's view here.


I'm starting 1L in a little over my month and my attitude is honestly going to be something like this. I'm in a relationship from undergrad and have plenty of friends from then and back home in high school. I'm going to law school to do well and get a job. Once I get one then I can go back to killing it at the bar. I wouldn't presume to judge people who take much leaisurely attitude to school, in fact if you can do very well without this attitude more power too you. I however will likely solely be focused on competing as best I can 1L year.

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romothesavior
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Re: Bartending during 1L a mistake?

Postby romothesavior » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:14 pm

I think the point is that having healthy relationships, a social life, and balance is something that everyone can and should do in law school. You guys are creating this false dichotomy between being a degenerate fratstar boozebag and being a no-nonsense gunner d-bag. Hoe about something in the middle of those ranges? The vast majority of the people I know of in the top 5-10% from my T20 law school class went to happy hours and bar reviews, have groups of law school friends, and have non-law school interests like hobbies and intramurals.

And honestly, having just finished up law school, I found that gunning your ass off for the first month or two of a semester will have close to zero correlation to your grades. Holing yourself up in a room in August and September to crank out case briefs and pour over supplements will pay pretty minimal dividends on test day.

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lawhopeful10
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Re: Bartending during 1L a mistake?

Postby lawhopeful10 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:26 pm

romothesavior wrote:I think the point is that having healthy relationships, a social life, and balance is something that everyone can and should do in law school. You guys are creating this false dichotomy between being a degenerate fratstar boozebag and being a no-nonsense gunner d-bag. Hoe about something in the middle of those ranges? The vast majority of the people I know of in the top 5-10% from my T20 law school class went to happy hours and bar reviews, have groups of law school friends, and have non-law school interests like hobbies and intramurals.

And honestly, having just finished up law school, I found that gunning your ass off for the first month or two of a semester will have close to zero correlation to your grades. Holing yourself up in a room in August and September to crank out case briefs and pour over supplements will pay pretty minimal dividends on test day.


I understand that for the next month I am still a 0L so I want to tread carefully however I was just wanted to ask you about your post. While like you said lots of people in the top 5-10% of your class had strong social lives how about the people that competed for #1 in the class. In the success guides Arrow, Xeoh, and mscarn, the people who got #1, all had ridiculous work ethics. Scribe did not work as hard it seems. And while yes there isn't two extremes like you said, there is only so much time in the day. While someone is going out someone else might be studying. There is also something to be said for having your mindset solely on doing well as opposed to other things. I know my freshman undergrads year I came ready to do well and did despite pledging in the fall. Afterwards once I started going out a lot even outside of the time factor I lost the mental edge to want to do well. Just some thoughts and I know as a 3L you are in a better position to inform so I am interested in any other thoughts you have.

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romothesavior
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Re: Bartending during 1L a mistake?

Postby romothesavior » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:37 pm

lawhopeful10 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:I think the point is that having healthy relationships, a social life, and balance is something that everyone can and should do in law school. You guys are creating this false dichotomy between being a degenerate fratstar boozebag and being a no-nonsense gunner d-bag. Hoe about something in the middle of those ranges? The vast majority of the people I know of in the top 5-10% from my T20 law school class went to happy hours and bar reviews, have groups of law school friends, and have non-law school interests like hobbies and intramurals.

And honestly, having just finished up law school, I found that gunning your ass off for the first month or two of a semester will have close to zero correlation to your grades. Holing yourself up in a room in August and September to crank out case briefs and pour over supplements will pay pretty minimal dividends on test day.


I understand that for the next month I am still a 0L so I want to tread carefully however I was just wanted to ask you about your post. While like you said lots of people in the top 5-10% of your class had strong social lives how about the people that competed for #1 in the class. In the success guides Arrow, Xeoh, and mscarn, the people who got #1, all had ridiculous work ethics. Scribe did not work as hard it seems. And while yes there isn't two extremes like you said, there is only so much time in the day. While someone is going out someone else might be studying. There is also something to be said for having your mindset solely on doing well as opposed to other things. I know my freshman undergrads year I came ready to do well and did despite pledging in the fall. Afterwards once I started going out a lot even outside of the time factor I lost the mental edge to want to do well. Just some thoughts and I know as a 3L you are in a better position to inform so I am interested in any other thoughts you have.

First of all, understand that the difference between top 5% and top 2% or #1 is minuscule in most cases. The difference between being #1 or 2 or 3 or 20 could be a single grade... one prof just didn't quite like that student's exam writing style, or the student had an anomalous hiccup on testday, or whatever. So to try to discern differences between top 5% and the top person is probably a pretty futile endeavor.

That said, I do know quite a few people at my school who were tip top of the class (the guy who is number one in the c/o 2014, a really close friend who is, or at least was, in the top 10 students out of 300 in my class, one guy who transferred to Harvard and was #1 or #2 after 1L year, a girl who graduated #1, and a few others who I'm pretty sure are single-digit ranks or close to it). All of them are insanely smart, and really hard-working. But pretty much every single one of them is social (to varying degrees), goes out for a beer now and again (to varying degrees), and is well-liked and respected by the people in the law school because they are friendly towards others. None of them would ever say something like "friends and mom can just deal with it," or the reality TV cliche "I'm not here to make friends, I'm here to WIN!" They're not douchebags or robots; they're nice, sociable, and well-rounded individuals.

Come in with the goal of being the best you can be. Come in with the intent to work your ass off and sacrifice pleasure for work and to study like you've never studied before. I won't fault anyone for that, because I was the same way. But don't come in thinking you have to study every day and night, or that going to the bar once a week in September or October will keep you from being successful on the exam in December, or that friends and family are simply distractions that will keep you from your goal. That kind of attitude is unnecessary and unhealthy.

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lawhopeful10
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Re: Bartending during 1L a mistake?

Postby lawhopeful10 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:46 pm

That makes sense, thanks for the thoughtful response.

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Nelson
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Re: Bartending during 1L a mistake?

Postby Nelson » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:47 pm

As usual, I agree 100% with Romo. Many (I would venture most in my anecdotal experience, but who knows if that's true everywhere) of the people at the top of their class did not follow the crazy guides on here. There's plenty of time in 1L for work/life balance. And taking the attitude that your classmates are competition to be crushed is pathological and isn't exactly going to do wonders for your professional network.

lawdawg09
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Re: Bartending during 1L a mistake?

Postby lawdawg09 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:52 pm

If you can otherwise be successful in school, do it.

I worked 25-30 hours a week (paid) from 2L spring semester-graduation and my bank account and credit score thank me.

After 1L spring, try to find a law job, gotta build that resume.

I know people that did externships during 1L summer but worked a night or two a week at the bar to keep the beer money flowing.

goaheadualright
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Re: Bartending during 1L a mistake?

Postby goaheadualright » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:44 pm

yes def and tell everyone you can you're a law student its like you're getting paid to network unless there is no potential of attorney clientele at this bar then no just be a research assistant if u want moneys

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hyakku
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Re: Bartending during 1L a mistake?

Postby hyakku » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:09 am

lawhopeful10 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:I think the point is that having healthy relationships, a social life, and balance is something that everyone can and should do in law school. You guys are creating this false dichotomy between being a degenerate fratstar boozebag and being a no-nonsense gunner d-bag. Hoe about something in the middle of those ranges? The vast majority of the people I know of in the top 5-10% from my T20 law school class went to happy hours and bar reviews, have groups of law school friends, and have non-law school interests like hobbies and intramurals.

And honestly, having just finished up law school, I found that gunning your ass off for the first month or two of a semester will have close to zero correlation to your grades. Holing yourself up in a room in August and September to crank out case briefs and pour over supplements will pay pretty minimal dividends on test day.


I understand that for the next month I am still a 0L so I want to tread carefully however I was just wanted to ask you about your post. While like you said lots of people in the top 5-10% of your class had strong social lives how about the people that competed for #1 in the class. In the success guides Arrow, Xeoh, and mscarn, the people who got #1, all had ridiculous work ethics. Scribe did not work as hard it seems. And while yes there isn't two extremes like you said, there is only so much time in the day. While someone is going out someone else might be studying. There is also something to be said for having your mindset solely on doing well as opposed to other things. I know my freshman undergrads year I came ready to do well and did despite pledging in the fall. Afterwards once I started going out a lot even outside of the time factor I lost the mental edge to want to do well. Just some thoughts and I know as a 3L you are in a better position to inform so I am interested in any other thoughts you have.


Eh, this is kind of a flawed way of thinking about law school. "Competing" for #1 is kind of stupid, unless you mean strictly for 1L year. In addition to all the accurate thing romo pointed out, you have to consider that two kids ending 1l Year with 4.0s or 4.3s (depending on scale) might end up as # 1 and #15 by 3L year simply by virtue of the classes they take. Someone taking 'Bloodfeuds' or 'Candymaking and the Law' type of classes is going to have a much easier time maintaining #1 than someone taking Federal Courts or Evidence where a bunch of potential clerks are participating as well.

It's just my opinion, but you're not really "competing" if you just take bullshit classes to stay on top, but if you only want the #1 next to your name for validation then I can see why you might be inclined to take the easy route. If you aren't inclined to take the easy route out though, chances are you're going to be in a class where a mandatory curve means one person got the A+ and you merely got an A. It's kind of weird to compete for #1 in the class, but I suppose that's your perogative. Just wanted to add a bit more context.

fanlinxun
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Re: Bartending during 1L a mistake?

Postby fanlinxun » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:36 am

I worked a part time job during 1L year and have never regretted it. If anything it helped me get my mind away from law school a couple times a week. I think the decision comes down to your personality and study skills. I am the kind of person who can sit down and study for 8 hours straight without taking a break, so my days were extremely efficient. The job took nothing away from my studies because there was absolutely nothing else to do. On the other hand, some students need 16 hours to finish 8 hours of work. Those students would probably feel that a job gives them unnecessary pressure. Most students fall somewhere those two extremes, so you just need to honestly decide what kind of student you are and make the right choice for yourself. My experience is that TLS is a good sounding board, but in the end only you know what is right for you.

fanlinxun
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Re: Bartending during 1L a mistake?

Postby fanlinxun » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:55 am

hyakku wrote: It's kind of weird to compete for #1 in the class, but I suppose that's your perogative. Just wanted to add a bit more context.


It's not weird to compete for number one in the class. Most students think they are doing so as 0Ls. The problem is that once those first grades come out it becomes very obvious whether any student can continue to compete going forward.

hyakku wrote:It's just my opinion, but you're not really "competing" if you just take bullshit classes to stay on top,


This is actually common practice for those at the very top of the class at my school. Why risk your 4.0+ by taking a tough class that doesn't mean anything when you can take an easy class that doesn't mean anything. Both before and after graduation, very few employers will have the time to pour through your transcript to see what classes you took. (Exception, possibly, for those pursuing clerkships)

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hyakku
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Re: Bartending during 1L a mistake?

Postby hyakku » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:00 am

fanlinxun wrote:
hyakku wrote: It's kind of weird to compete for #1 in the class, but I suppose that's your perogative. Just wanted to add a bit more context.


It's not weird to compete for number one in the class. Most students think they are doing so as 0Ls. The problem is that once those first grades come out it becomes very obvious whether any student can continue to compete going forward.

hyakku wrote:It's just my opinion, but you're not really "competing" if you just take bullshit classes to stay on top,


This is actually common practice for those at the very top of the class at my school. Why risk your 4.0+ by taking a tough class that doesn't mean anything when you can take an easy class that doesn't mean anything. Both before and after graduation, very few employers will have the time to pour through your transcript to see what classes you took. (Exception, possibly, for those pursuing clerkships)


What I mean when I say weird is that it makes more sense to compete for say, top 1-2% than being #1 only because you literally might get perfect grades throughout law school and not get #1 because one teacher has a policy of not giving out A+s and another one does. Of course, theoretically, you should always aim to be best at what you do. It ensures that you are constantly striving, which is generally a good thing until it stresses you out. But unless you're willing to spend time gaming the system rather than "enjoying" LS, it seems "weird" to me to aim for #1. Maybe I should've clarified.

As to your second point, I mean, some of the classes that are still curved 2L or 3L year might actually be...entertaining? I know I'd much rather learn about M&A, ibanking, etc. rather than what the hell some Icelandic fucks did in like 1300 without law just to keep my grades up. Like I said, it's everyone's choice to do as they please, but I just personally think that you aren't "really" competing with the "best of the best" (I know how ridiculous this sounds, but for lack of a better term) if they're taking Fed Courts and you're taking Candyland and the Judiciary. I guess if people really need that #1 star by their name it'll make them feel good, but I'm personally gonna believe that a guy with a 3.9 who took a bunch of Tax and Clerk courses is probably a stronger all around student graduating over a guy with a 4.3 that took a bunch of bullshit.

These are all personal viewpoints. I would just find it odd if someone bragged about being #1 in a class because they took a bunch of bs.

Edit: And don't think I'm saying this because I'm on a clerkship path or something. I have zero interest in stepping foot in a court room as of this post.

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lawhopeful10
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Re: Bartending during 1L a mistake?

Postby lawhopeful10 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:07 am

I mentioned competing for #1 mainly as just a mindset to help one do their best 1L year. When I used to work out a lot when I stepped in the gym I would say for fifty minutes I'm here no one will out work me. I guess I want that same attitude for 1L even though its not a competition like a basketball tryout. Anyway yea I agree taking bs classes solely to stroke your ego and finish #1 seems foolish, especially if nothing else is gained by doing so.

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hyakku
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Re: Bartending during 1L a mistake?

Postby hyakku » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:10 am

lawhopeful10 wrote:I mentioned competing for #1 mainly as just a mindset to help one do their best 1L year. When I used to work out a lot when I stepped in the gym I would say for fifty minutes I'm here no one will out work me. I guess I want that same attitude for 1L even though its not a competition like a basketball tryout. Anyway yea I agree taking bs classes solely to stroke your ego and finish #1 seems foolish, especially if nothing else is gained by doing so.


So yea, I think this is a healthy mindset. As a fellow gym rat I know exactly what you mean. I would analogize the type of people I was initially talking about being "weird" for competing for #1 to the guys that go in the gym and do like 100 reps of curls with like a bar and 5LBers just to say they did 100 reps. Yea, they're "#1" in the gym at that moment in reps, but really, no one there takes them seriously :lol:




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