PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

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SemperLegal
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread

Postby SemperLegal » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:50 pm

TheWeeIceMon wrote:I've been told that the proposal includes elimination of the "tax bomb." If it's true, I don't know how I managed to miss that part.



I'm very critical of any proposal to eliminate or reinstate tax bombs, because it would be pretty hard to make a reliance argument against the tax bomb. IMHO, the taxation of COD will be determined by the IRS 10 years from now (5 for some people) based on politics, revenue, and mathematics of the moment.

TLDR: IRS will do what it wants.

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2807
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread

Postby 2807 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:22 pm

If your loan forgiveness is still bigger than your eventual income tax burden based on the windfall year of the forgiveness, this is still worthy.

for 100k forgiven you can assume approx 30k in tax on average. (Yes, hard to get exact... but average)

That would be $250 a month over 10 years.
If this plan drops your payment more than that, then this worthy?

If the forgiven is 100k, and it costs you 30k in 10 years due to income tax on that 100k forgiven, that = $70k net value gain.

right?

Seems good.

Is my math wrong?

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SemperLegal
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread

Postby SemperLegal » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:25 pm

2807 wrote:If your loan forgiveness is still bigger than your eventual income tax burden based on the windfall year of the forgiveness, this is still worthy.

for 100k forgiven you can assume approx 30k in tax on average. (Yes, hard to get exact... but average)

That would be $250 a month over 10 years.
If this plan drops your payment more than that, then this worthy?

If the forgiven is 100k, and it costs you 30k in 10 years due to income tax on that 100k forgiven, that = $70k net value gain.

right?

Seems good.

Is my math wrong?



However, the IRS is the business of being paid, not putting people through school. Unless you can get a HELOC or unsecured loan, its likely to be a 2-3 year payment plan

Nomo
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread

Postby Nomo » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:25 pm


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patogordo
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread

Postby patogordo » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:43 pm

2807 wrote:If your loan forgiveness is still bigger than your eventual income tax burden based on the windfall year of the forgiveness, this is still worthy.

for 100k forgiven you can assume approx 30k in tax on average. (Yes, hard to get exact... but average)

That would be $250 a month over 10 years.
If this plan drops your payment more than that, then this worthy?

If the forgiven is 100k, and it costs you 30k in 10 years due to income tax on that 100k forgiven, that = $70k net value gain.

right?

Seems good.

Is my math wrong?

it's even better than that because time value of money

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jessuf
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread

Postby jessuf » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:31 am

Welp, this is very depressing. Now I regret not gunning for firm work. I wonder how my school's LRAP will deal with any future changes to PLSF. I doubt they'll agree to make payments for 25 years. I can't wait to never be able to buy a house or have any sort of adult life!

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread

Postby adonai » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:54 am

25 years for 57.5k forgiveness? Are you effing kidding me? Most people will be 50-60 at that time. That won't even cover most students' interest. I read somewhere that getting married will make payments even worse under this plan. So no home, no car, and even more disincentive to get married. People are actually defending this saying well at least you still have to pay only 10%...yeah, of a debt you will never repay fully for the rest of your life. Big, big slap in the face by Mr. Obummer. Just hope it's for new law students going forward, and not ones that have already fully dedicated their years in school or are currently paying under the current plan.

09042014
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby 09042014 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:20 am

I'm willing to trade me getting PAYE for you losing PLIF

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patogordo
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby patogordo » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:24 am

Desert Fox wrote:I'm willing to trade me getting PAYE for you losing PLIF

agree. expanding PAYE helps everyone. it's not that hard to save for the tax bomb w/ reduced payments under PAYE, whether you work in PI or shitlaw or w/e. incentivize public interest lawyering through LRAPs instead.

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread

Postby gchatbrah » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:29 am

adonai wrote:25 years for 57.5k forgiveness? Are you effing kidding me? Most people will be 50-60 at that time. That won't even cover most students' interest. I read somewhere that getting married will make payments even worse under this plan. So no home, no car, and even more disincentive to get married. People are actually defending this saying well at least you still have to pay only 10%...yeah, of a debt you will never repay fully for the rest of your life. Big, big slap in the face by Mr. Obummer. Just hope it's for new law students going forward, and not ones that have already fully dedicated their years in school or are currently paying under the current plan.


TBF, I think it's 10 years for 57.5 under PSLF, and then 25 years for forgiveness above that threshold.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:34 am

patogordo wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I'm willing to trade me getting PAYE for you losing PLIF

agree. expanding PAYE helps everyone. it's not that hard to save for the tax bomb w/ reduced payments under PAYE, whether you work in PI or shitlaw or w/e. incentivize public interest lawyering through LRAPs instead.

Are there any non-T14s that actually have any LRAPs worth a darn, though? My school's LRAP sure isn't. (I realize the logical comeback is, go to a t14/elsewhere for free, but I like people to have options.)

09042014
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby 09042014 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:35 am

There aren't enough PI jobs to go around. No need to incentivize it.

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Tanicius
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby Tanicius » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:46 am

Desert Fox wrote:There aren't enough PI jobs to go around. No need to incentivize it.


Step on a Lego. You're wrong part in fact and part in spirit.

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patogordo
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby patogordo » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:50 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
patogordo wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I'm willing to trade me getting PAYE for you losing PLIF

agree. expanding PAYE helps everyone. it's not that hard to save for the tax bomb w/ reduced payments under PAYE, whether you work in PI or shitlaw or w/e. incentivize public interest lawyering through LRAPs instead.

Are there any non-T14s that actually have any LRAPs worth a darn, though? My school's LRAP sure isn't. (I realize the logical comeback is, go to a t14/elsewhere for free, but I like people to have options.)

i think the key is to be clear about what we're trying to incentivize, here. as DF said, there aren't enough PI jobs to go around as it is. the concern isn't unfilled jobs, it's the brain drain to the private sector. so i think the T14 LRAPs (and full schollies for top students at non-T14s) is plenty.

a lot of people phrase it in terms of the "unmet demand" for legal services for the poor but that's a completely different policy question. that's an access problem, not a supply problem.

09042014
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby 09042014 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:09 am

Tanicius wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:There aren't enough PI jobs to go around. No need to incentivize it.


Step on a Lego. You're wrong part in fact and part in spirit.


There are more unemployed law grads than grads who go into PI. No incentive needed.

And society receives no benefit from paying 53k a year to send someone to GWU instead of University of DC, if the person is just going to do immigration law.

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby Tanicius » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:13 am

Desert Fox wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:There aren't enough PI jobs to go around. No need to incentivize it.


Step on a Lego. You're wrong part in fact and part in spirit.


There are more unemployed law grads than grads who go into PI. No incentive needed.

And society receives no benefit from paying 53k a year to send someone to GWU instead of University of DC, if the person is just going to do immigration law.


This is exactly where you are wrong.

09042014
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby 09042014 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:15 am

Tanicius wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:There aren't enough PI jobs to go around. No need to incentivize it.


Step on a Lego. You're wrong part in fact and part in spirit.


There are more unemployed law grads than grads who go into PI. No incentive needed.

And society receives no benefit from paying 53k a year to send someone to GWU instead of University of DC, if the person is just going to do immigration law.


This is exactly where you are wrong.


Law school doesn't teach you shit.

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Tanicius
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby Tanicius » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:20 am

Desert Fox wrote:
Law school doesn't teach you shit.


Maybe not the worthless bar classes and journal stuff you did, but let's be clear you're talking about your own big-firm oriented experience.

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby 09042014 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:32 am

Tanicius wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Law school doesn't teach you shit.


Maybe not the worthless bar classes and journal stuff you did, but let's be clear you're talking about your own big-firm oriented experience.


I took a bunch of the practice oriented classes because they were uncurved. Still don't learn shit.

But I did learn SIJS in half an afternoon for my pro bono case.
Last edited by 09042014 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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patogordo
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby patogordo » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:34 am

Desert Fox wrote:But I did learn SIJS in half an afternoon for my pro bono case.

only possible because you had learned to THINK LIKE A LAWYER™

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:46 am

Desert Fox wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
There are more unemployed law grads than grads who go into PI. No incentive needed.

And society receives no benefit from paying 53k a year to send someone to GWU instead of University of DC, if the person is just going to do immigration law.


This is exactly where you are wrong.


Law school doesn't teach you shit.

Who says you go to a specific law school for the education? Why shouldn't someone in PI get the benefits of going to the school that provides more options? (The "just" in that sentence is really obnoxious.)

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:05 am

DF you seemed to be in agreement with patogordo about making minimum PAYE payments early on and taking advantage of the forgiveness option, but in another thread you said you were putting everything you make into loans. What changed?

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LSL
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby LSL » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:13 pm

ITT needless Scott Walkerian divide and conquer trolling.

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MarkinKansasCity
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby MarkinKansasCity » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:16 pm

patogordo wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:But I did learn SIJS in half an afternoon for my pro bono case.

only possible because you had learned to THINK LIKE A LAWYER™


Is this where they taught us in Torts to make sure and include whoever has the most money as the defendant in a lawsuit, even if the party with the most money was only tangentially related to the injury?

GO FOR THE DEEP POCKETS

I NEED PAID BITCH

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Tanicius
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby Tanicius » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:52 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Law school doesn't teach you shit.

Who says you go to a specific law school for the education? Why shouldn't someone in PI get the benefits of going to the school that provides more options? (The "just" in that sentence is really obnoxious.)


This is the more important point. Lots of PI orgs select from top schools and use it as a means to separate the wheat resumes from the chaff resumes. A talented person for a specific PI job at a lower school is fighting an uphill battle. In that situation, the job probably goes to a candidate with less aptitude and drive for the work who just wants it for the future lateral opportunities. It's not how it should be, and it's not how I'd hire, but that's how it is for a lot of jobs. Without PSLF, I would not have gunned for pubdefense at a T-14, and neither would I have put all my eggs in the scholarship basket at a T-25. The PD hiring track was ultra competitive this year, and it was because PSLF meant that lots more qualifies people could aim for it.




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