PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

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spleenworship
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby spleenworship » Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:15 pm

dresden doll wrote:Also, I think it's unfair to claim that there's zero incentive for the student to keep the debt down without the cap. I don't know any person, PI-oriented or not, who didn't strongly prefer going into LS on scholarships over attending to the tune of 200k+. Most people worry about changing their minds about PI and potentially wanting out before 10 years are up (god knows that once you start, you can't get out even if you decide it's not for you without suffering heavy financial repercussions). And I won't even get into the stress of worrying about losing your job 5-6 years down the road after your debt has grown into a massive monster but you're not yet there as far as applying for forgiveness. Going in on a scholarship/having the money to immediately repay the debt is ALWAYS the superior choice, and I suspect that the number of people on whom that insight is lost are few in number.

That's probably the biggest reason I'd support the cap: it would force schools to give out more money on the front end, in actual scholarships, as opposed to being able to pass the buck because "you'll have it forgiven anyway."


In support of this I'd like to point out I was/am PI interested and I took as little debt as possible.

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LSL
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby LSL » Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:59 pm

dresden doll wrote:
LSL wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
patogordo wrote:even better, you can play it like Obama did, and use programs like PSLF to buy political support from young voters while the program is free (b/c forgiveness is 10 years away) and then when the costs appear on the horizon you can ditch it because you no longer need them.


That really is exactly what he did. I'm so MAF.


It's great too cuz it's like, "What who are you gonna vote for instead? The republicans?!" Giving people loan forgiveness was always the Dems call to make and ours to lose w/o much political consequence to them. So fucked up.


TBF, they do need us not to stay home on election days. Obama's superior get-out-the-vote machine was one of the biggest reasons he won the second time around. They weren't really trying to convince anyone off the fence, just making sure that their sympathizers got to the voting polls.


True, true. Although they could still have decent success selling the PAYE changes while glossing over the drawbacks PSLF cap. OTOH, they really are fucking over the people more likely to be politically aware with this.

Torvon
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby Torvon » Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:16 am

So, Heather Jarvis says she does not believe the PSLF cap will apply retroactively because it is written in the promissory note. Others have found that argument unpersuasive because the language contains the word "may":
A public service loan forgiveness program is also available. Under this program, the remaining balance due on your eligible Direct Loan Program loans may be cancelled after you have made 120 payments on those loans (after October 1, 2007) under certain repayment plans while you are employed in certain public service jobs.
I consolidated my loans a little bit ago. Here is the language from my consolidation promissory note:
A Public Service Loan Forgiveness program is available that provides for the cancellation of the remaining balance due on your eligible Direct Loan Program loans after you have made 120 full, on-time, scheduled monthly payments (after October 1, 2007) on those loans under certain repayment plans while you are employed full-time by certain public service organizations.
No "may" there. Game changer?

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patogordo
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby patogordo » Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:32 am

i mean, the program was available when you signed your note. doesn't mean it will be there forever.

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2807
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby 2807 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:54 am

Is there a downside to opting in ?

(I understand possible tax implications of forgiveness in the future)

However--
Is the risk that:
1. you would opt in,
2. then make payments,
3. and.. the interest not paid rolls over,
4. then the PAYE plan fails and,
... you are left with capitalized interest ... and a new fixed rate loan ?

Just trying to find the fear.
It seems too good to be true at the moment.

*** Also: Do you have to consolidate all your loans for this?
And thereby you acquire the % rate that a consolidated loan has? (about 8%?) ?

If I knew the rate, then we could do the math to see how much interest is rolling over and at issue if the plan changes/fails.

Thanks folks.

Nomo
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby Nomo » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:40 pm

Has anyone's school responded to this at all or made any other comments regarding how their LRAP plans might change?

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SemperLegal
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby SemperLegal » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:11 pm

Nomo wrote:Has anyone's school responded to this at all or made any other comments regarding how their LRAP plans might change?



We got an email saying they were lobbying against it, and admitting that our LRAP was totally dependent on it. More word is forthcoming.

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spleenworship
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby spleenworship » Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:23 am

SemperLegal wrote:
Nomo wrote:Has anyone's school responded to this at all or made any other comments regarding how their LRAP plans might change?



We got an email saying they were lobbying against it, and admitting that our LRAP was totally dependent on it. More word is forthcoming.


Every damned professional program on earth should be using some of that sweet as loan money they scammed out of the government in loans to bribe... uh, I mean lobby... The government to keep this program in place as is. It's in their best interest. And besides, that's just the circle of loan money.

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worldtraveler
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby worldtraveler » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:19 pm

Berkeley's response so far:

o: Students and Alumni
From: Acting Dean Lester
Subject: President Obama’s Fiscal Year 2015 Budget Proposal

As you may be aware, President Obama released his budget proposal for the 2015 fiscal year on Tuesday, March 4. His proposal contains surprising changes to federal student loan repayment options and Public Service Loan Forgiveness.

Beginning with new borrowers on July 1, 2015, they will have only the Pay as You Earn (PAYE) repayment option available to them when they repay their loans. Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) will be capped at the aggregate independent undergraduate loan limit of $57,500. There will be a 25-year forgiveness period for borrowers with balances above the aggregate loan limit.

These proposed changes are important because Berkeley Law’s Loan Repayment Assistance Program (LRAP) intersects with the federal government’s current policy and regulations pertaining to the Income Based Repayment (IBR) plan and PSLF. Berkeley Law values and has provided significant support to its public service students and graduates, and it will continue to do so.

Last July, Assistant Dean of Financial Aid, Dennis Tominaga, acted on his growing concern that eventually the federal government might consider changing or eliminating PSLF because of its potential cost and the need to fund other parts of the federal budget. He urged and requested the National Association of Student Financial Aid Administrators (NASFAA) to begin collecting and analyzing data to illustrate how PSLF and income-determined repayment plans such as PAYE and IBR enable student loan borrowers to obtain the education needed to meet our society’s public service workforce needs.

NASFAA advocates for students and financial aid administrators. From March through June 2014, its PSLF Task Force will produce a report and recommendations to the NASFAA Board of Directors on the future of PSLF.

It is difficult, if not impossible to predict whether Congress will act on the president’s budget proposal that requests $56 billion in new spending. Congress has already set spending limits for the 2015 fiscal year.

I am sending this message primarily to assure you that we are aware of these proposed changes and their possible effects on Berkeley Law’s LRAP and your public service career. We will focus not only on these proposals but any others that may have similar effects. We will study them in relation to the LRAP and changes that we may need to consider.

We will stay in communication with you and provide you with information about the proposal, its status, and what Berkeley Law can and will do.

Please be assured that we will do our best to protect your interests.

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JCougar
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby JCougar » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:18 pm

So in other words, Berkeley reads it as NOT applying retroactively. Which is common sense. I think a lot of people got worked up about this for nothing.

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patogordo
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby patogordo » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:22 pm

JCougar wrote:So in other words, Berkeley reads it as NOT applying retroactively. Which is common sense. I think a lot of people got worked up about this for nothing.

common sense? or wishful thinking?

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:23 pm

I didn't get that from the message at all.

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worldtraveler
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby worldtraveler » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:26 pm

patogordo wrote:
JCougar wrote:So in other words, Berkeley reads it as NOT applying retroactively. Which is common sense. I think a lot of people got worked up about this for nothing.

common sense? or wishful thinking?


I think it's more that they don't know what it means, either.

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby Nomo » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:30 pm

JCougar wrote:So in other words, Berkeley reads it as NOT applying retroactively. Which is common sense. I think a lot of people got worked up about this for nothing.


I didn't get that. And if Berkeley really believed it wasn't retroactive I think they would have explicitly said so in order to calm the people who are freaking out.

At this point its really starting to look like the plan is retroactive.

Please contact your senators, congressperson, the white house, and the dep. of education and don't forget to sign the petition.

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JCougar
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby JCougar » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:32 pm

Beginning with new borrowers on July 1, 2015, they will have only the Pay as You Earn (PAYE) repayment option available to them when they repay their loans. Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) will be capped at the aggregate independent undergraduate loan limit of $57,500. There will be a 25-year forgiveness period for borrowers with balances above the aggregate loan limit.


I can't see any other way of reading that other than Berkeley thinks it will only apply to new borrowers on July 1, 2015 or later.

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patogordo
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby patogordo » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:34 pm

i think the fair assumption is that it is retroactive. which is kind of a misnomer anyway. retroactive would be like if you got $200k forgiven last year and then they said lol sorry we're retroactively capping it at 50k so you owe us 150k now.

obviously it sucks hard for people who have made plans in reliance on the existing program but it's not the type of thing where you assume no "retroactivity" unless otherwise specified.

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby JCougar » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:41 pm

patogordo wrote:i think the fair assumption is that it is retroactive. which is kind of a misnomer anyway. retroactive would be like if you got $200k forgiven last year and then they said lol sorry we're retroactively capping it at 50k so you owe us 150k now.

obviously it sucks hard for people who have made plans in reliance on the existing program but it's not the type of thing where you assume no "retroactivity" unless otherwise specified.


I feel just the opposite. This is something where no retroactivity should be assumed unless clearly specified otherwise...since making something like this retroactive is clearly the more radical and unjust way to do it. Politicians are careful, and they don't like to make radical and unjust decisions that anger their base of supporters. Especially Obama. You'd have to think that about 9 out of 10 voters taking advantage of PSLF lean Democrat. Obama's one of the most risk-averse politicians I've ever seen.

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby patogordo » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:47 pm

JCougar wrote:
patogordo wrote:i think the fair assumption is that it is retroactive. which is kind of a misnomer anyway. retroactive would be like if you got $200k forgiven last year and then they said lol sorry we're retroactively capping it at 50k so you owe us 150k now.

obviously it sucks hard for people who have made plans in reliance on the existing program but it's not the type of thing where you assume no "retroactivity" unless otherwise specified.


I feel just the opposite. This is something where no retroactivity should be assumed unless clearly specified otherwise...since making something like this retroactive is clearly the more radical and unjust way to do it. Politicians are careful, and they don't like to make radical and unjust decisions that anger their base of supporters. Especially Obama. You'd have to think that about 9 out of 10 voters taking advantage of PSLF lean Democrat. Obama's one of the most risk-averse politicians I've ever seen.

i meant more as a matter of statutory interpretation but i'm not buying your argument either. why would second term Obama care more about pissing off students than saving money in the budget for other programs?

it's also just not as obviously "radical and unjust" as you're suggesting. this sort of thing happens all the time in regulatory law.

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby LSL » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:48 pm

worldtraveler wrote:
patogordo wrote:
JCougar wrote:So in other words, Berkeley reads it as NOT applying retroactively. Which is common sense. I think a lot of people got worked up about this for nothing.

common sense? or wishful thinking?


I think it's more that they don't know what it means, either.


This is what I got. And that the probably left out the retroactively point b/c they don't know. I mean, they wouldn't be sending this email out to current and past students if they didn't think it might affect retroactively. But, I'm guessing they don't know because they didn't address that point specifically and only spoke about it affecting post-2015 borrowers.

Edit: But fuck, this might be credited:

Nomo wrote:I didn't get that. And if Berkeley really believed it wasn't retroactive I think they would have explicitly said so in order to calm the people who are freaking out.


Depends on how much credit we give to the FinAid people at Berkeley to be thinking what we're thinking I guess.

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JCougar
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby JCougar » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:58 pm

patogordo wrote:
JCougar wrote:
patogordo wrote:i think the fair assumption is that it is retroactive. which is kind of a misnomer anyway. retroactive would be like if you got $200k forgiven last year and then they said lol sorry we're retroactively capping it at 50k so you owe us 150k now.

obviously it sucks hard for people who have made plans in reliance on the existing program but it's not the type of thing where you assume no "retroactivity" unless otherwise specified.


I feel just the opposite. This is something where no retroactivity should be assumed unless clearly specified otherwise...since making something like this retroactive is clearly the more radical and unjust way to do it. Politicians are careful, and they don't like to make radical and unjust decisions that anger their base of supporters. Especially Obama. You'd have to think that about 9 out of 10 voters taking advantage of PSLF lean Democrat. Obama's one of the most risk-averse politicians I've ever seen.

i meant more as a matter of statutory interpretation but i'm not buying your argument either. why would second term Obama care more about pissing off students than saving money in the budget for other programs?

it's also just not as obviously "radical and unjust" as you're suggesting. this sort of thing happens all the time in regulatory law.


As far as statutory interpretation goes, it's pretty clear that the PAYE changes won't go into effect until 2015 for new borrowers. Why would the PSLF changes be any different unless explicitly stated?

As far as the political angle...it's Obama's last term, but the 2014 elections are coming up. I'm sure he'd love to be able to govern with a Democratic majority in the House. They're trying to rally the base right now...not piss it off. There's no way they put this out right now unless it is not retroactive.

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patogordo
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby patogordo » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:01 pm

what are the PAYE changes? i haven't been following that closely.

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JCougar
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby JCougar » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:09 pm

patogordo wrote:what are the PAYE changes? i haven't been following that closely.


Basically, everyone gets PAYE, even those who took out loans before 2007? (is it?). So PAYE is actually being expanded. And it becomes the only program after 2015. But it clearly states that people who borrowed before 2015 can stay on their old plans if they want.

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patogordo
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby patogordo » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:12 pm

JCougar wrote:
patogordo wrote:what are the PAYE changes? i haven't been following that closely.


Basically, everyone gets PAYE, even those who took out loans before 2007? (is it?). So PAYE is actually being expanded. And it becomes the only program after 2015. But it clearly states that people who borrowed before 2015 can stay on their old plans if they want.

that's a little different, though. staying on your old repayment plan just means you keep making the same monthly payment. and every other plan has a higher monthly payment than PAYE.

although even if your interpretation is true doesn't that just prove my point? why explicitly say you can stay on IBR but not explicitly say you can get PSLF uncapped.

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JCougar
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby JCougar » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:21 pm

I admit it's more vague than it should be, but my understanding just makes more sense to me (obviously...lol). I really doubt they would pull the rug out from under PSLF students like that. To me, that's just not even in the realm of political possibilities.

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby paintbynumbers » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:26 pm

The government is already turning a $41.3 billion profit a year on the backs of its students. Now this.

I need a massage.




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