PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

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dresden doll
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby dresden doll » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:13 pm

Desert Fox wrote:No shit you want to spare your ox from being gored. It's only not a mark on the ledger because the program is new. When it goes going it could be very expensive.

It's extremely self centered to think your personal happiness should be subsided to the tune of 300k.


(wants the tax bomb to be fixed/PAYE program to be expanded so he can do minimum PAYE payments for 20 years while earning a six figure income)

(is not self centered)

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dresden doll
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby dresden doll » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:16 pm

worldtraveler wrote:This is really a problem the government created for itself when it lets schools charge whatever they want and use virtually unlimited access to government sponsored loans without regard to employment prospects and starting salaries.


Exactly, and now they'd like to penalize those people who simply took advantage of an option they so enthusiastically touted at the time. No kidding we have a problem with that.

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Rahviveh
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby Rahviveh » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:18 pm

dresden doll wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:No shit you want to spare your ox from being gored. It's only not a mark on the ledger because the program is new. When it goes going it could be very expensive.

It's extremely self centered to think your personal happiness should be subsided to the tune of 300k.


(wants the tax bomb to be fixed/PAYE program to be expanded so he can do minimum PAYE payments for 20 years while earning a six figure income)

(is not self centered)


We're all looking out for our own interests here, it's natural and part of the game. The best, most realistic thing to hope for is that these changes will mainly affect future borrowers. I think that will likely be the case, and will satisfy most people involved.

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby 09042014 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:18 pm

worldtraveler wrote:Depends on what I'm able to accomplish, really. But I also think there should be better regulations on just how much law schools can charge, and better scholarship options for PI students. Like Tanicius said, a lot of those were cut because schools said "Just do PSLF!" This is really a problem the government created for itself when it lets schools charge whatever they want and use virtually unlimited access to government sponsored loans without regard to employment prospects and starting salaries.


1) It doesn't matter what you do, but the difference between you and whoever else would have gotten the job. Arguably that is exactly zero. Especially since, you might still get the job if everyone stopped getting subsidized to go to expensive schools.

2) Most scholarship options are just charging one student to pay for another. That's just as shitty.

3) "This is really a problem the government created for itself when it lets schools charge whatever they want and use virtually unlimited access to government sponsored loans without regard to employment prospects and starting salaries." -- And this is step one to stopping it.

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby 09042014 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:20 pm

dresden doll wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:No shit you want to spare your ox from being gored. It's only not a mark on the ledger because the program is new. When it goes going it could be very expensive.

It's extremely self centered to think your personal happiness should be subsided to the tune of 300k.


(wants the tax bomb to be fixed/PAYE program to be expanded so he can do minimum PAYE payments for 20 years while earning a six figure income)

(is not self centered)


I'm not going to say I should be allowed to do PAYE. It's silly to let me do it. It's bad policy. The difference is I can see that.

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby 09042014 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:21 pm

dresden doll wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:This is really a problem the government created for itself when it lets schools charge whatever they want and use virtually unlimited access to government sponsored loans without regard to employment prospects and starting salaries.


Exactly, and now they'd like to penalize those people who simply took advantage of an option they so enthusiastically touted at the time. No kidding we have a problem with that.


I think it's bad to retroactively change it. But going foward, a 57k cap is a good policy.

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worldtraveler
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby worldtraveler » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:25 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:No shit you want to spare your ox from being gored. It's only not a mark on the ledger because the program is new. When it goes going it could be very expensive.

It's extremely self centered to think your personal happiness should be subsided to the tune of 300k.


(wants the tax bomb to be fixed/PAYE program to be expanded so he can do minimum PAYE payments for 20 years while earning a six figure income)

(is not self centered)


I'm not going to say I should be allowed to do PAYE. It's silly to let me do it. It's bad policy. The difference is I can see that.


Nobody is arguing PSLF was a great idea. We're just saying removing it causes too many problems. It would obviously be better if we could go back in time and prevent law schools from jacking up tuition and if we could change hiring decisions for PI, but we can't do that.

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:27 pm

Desert Fox wrote:I think it's bad to retroactively change it. But going foward, a 57k cap is a good policy.

I actually agree that a cap is good policy, but I think 57K is a little low for professional programs as they currently stand (for all the reasons I've blathered about already) (or, basically, what WT just said about not going to be able to go back in time and stop schools from jacking up tuition). Though I acknowledge that coming up with a cap people could agree on would be tough when PSLF also encompasses all kinds of other programs like education and social work and so on, which don't cost $250K.

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dresden doll
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby dresden doll » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:31 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
I'm not going to say I should be allowed to do PAYE. It's silly to let me do it. It's bad policy. The difference is I can see that.


All I'm really saying is that cheering on expanded PAYE while simultaneously delivering a self-righteous sermon about the entitlement of the PI people who'd also like subsidies for their choices is kind of a bad look.

By the way, most of the indignation I've seen is really about those borrowers who already made certain choices in reliance on the existence of PSLF. I have yet to see a future (meaning 0L) borrower wailing about how his "300k for NYU" choice is a sacred choice that must be subsidized by the taxpayers. So I don't really get who you're even arguing with, unless you somehow find it impossible to understand why someone who already made that choice could now be pissed at the rug being pulled from under their feet.

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dresden doll
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby dresden doll » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:33 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:This is really a problem the government created for itself when it lets schools charge whatever they want and use virtually unlimited access to government sponsored loans without regard to employment prospects and starting salaries.


Exactly, and now they'd like to penalize those people who simply took advantage of an option they so enthusiastically touted at the time. No kidding we have a problem with that.


I think it's bad to retroactively change it. But going foward, a 57k cap is a good policy.


I think a cap is an okay policy, but leaving it at 57k for undergrad and grad debt alike is bullshit. With that said, I did hear through the grapevine that this provision has actually been misunderstood and that grad debt is in fact intended to be capped at 130k+.

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby worldtraveler » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:37 pm

dresden doll wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:This is really a problem the government created for itself when it lets schools charge whatever they want and use virtually unlimited access to government sponsored loans without regard to employment prospects and starting salaries.


Exactly, and now they'd like to penalize those people who simply took advantage of an option they so enthusiastically touted at the time. No kidding we have a problem with that.


I think it's bad to retroactively change it. But going foward, a 57k cap is a good policy.


I think a cap is an okay policy, but leaving it at 57k for undergrad and grad debt alike is bullshit. With that said, I did hear through the grapevine that this provision has actually been misunderstood and that grad debt is in fact intended to be capped at 130k+.


I also think a cap is completely reasonable. Just have one for undergrad, one for grad, and one for professional/med programs and then a combined cap. Kind of surprised they didn't just do that to begin with.

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dresden doll
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby dresden doll » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:45 pm

Also, I think it's unfair to claim that there's zero incentive for the student to keep the debt down without the cap. I don't know any person, PI-oriented or not, who didn't strongly prefer going into LS on scholarships over attending to the tune of 200k+. Most people worry about changing their minds about PI and potentially wanting out before 10 years are up (god knows that once you start, you can't get out even if you decide it's not for you without suffering heavy financial repercussions). And I won't even get into the stress of worrying about losing your job 5-6 years down the road after your debt has grown into a massive monster but you're not yet there as far as applying for forgiveness. Going in on a scholarship/having the money to immediately repay the debt is ALWAYS the superior choice, and I suspect that the number of people on whom that insight is lost are few in number.

That's probably the biggest reason I'd support the cap: it would force schools to give out more money on the front end, in actual scholarships, as opposed to being able to pass the buck because "you'll have it forgiven anyway."

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby LSL » Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:52 pm

dresden doll wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
I'm not going to say I should be allowed to do PAYE. It's silly to let me do it. It's bad policy. The difference is I can see that.


All I'm really saying is that cheering on expanded PAYE while simultaneously delivering a self-righteous sermon about the entitlement of the PI people who'd also like subsidies for their choices is kind of a bad look.


This. I don't hear anyone complaining about the gov't subsidizing people who end up at shitlaw firms (and a whole host of unsympathetic private market operators). They'll definitely be doing that more with this plan. And yeah, like others have pointed out, it's not that we can't see there are problems in the policy. It's just that the whole system is fucked and screwing us or future PI people does a very negligible amount to address that.

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby JCougar » Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:37 pm

Desert Fox wrote:If you want to Pay for the whatever benefits you receive, go right ahead. That doesn't mean it's a totally retarded policy choice for society to pay 300k for you to go to Harvard law, when kids in Detroit can't even fucking read.


As someone who stands to benefit from PSLF, I have to agree.

I didn't get into PI law to drain the public's resources. Take the $300K and dump it into anti-poverty programs.

PSLF is like putting a band-aid onto a limb that's falling off due to gangrene. The gangrene is skyrocketing tuition. And that's never going to stop until schools are made to be at least partially responsible for the debt they create. I think we should pass a bill allowing the federal government to claw back any loan forgiveness/defaults from the endowment of the school that created it. Tuition would drop faster than you could say "greased lightning."

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby patogordo » Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:58 pm

JCougar wrote:I think we should pass a bill allowing the federal government to claw back any loan forgiveness/defaults from the endowment of the school that created it. Tuition Political contributions would drop faster than you could say "greased lightning."

ftfy

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby JCougar » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:01 pm

patogordo wrote:
JCougar wrote:I think we should pass a bill allowing the federal government to claw back any loan forgiveness/defaults from the endowment of the school that created it. Tuition Political contributions would drop faster than you could say "greased lightning."

ftfy


I can't see why this wouldn't be a bi-partisan bill. If both parties sign on, than both parties loose contributions equally, so it's a wash (well, maybe not, because I'm pretty sure higher ed gives more to the Dems...but there's also pressure on the Dem side because the young and indebted are far more likely to be Dem voters).

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby patogordo » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:22 pm

JCougar wrote:
patogordo wrote:
JCougar wrote:I think we should pass a bill allowing the federal government to claw back any loan forgiveness/defaults from the endowment of the school that created it. Tuition Political contributions would drop faster than you could say "greased lightning."

ftfy

I can't see why this wouldn't be a bi-partisan bill. If both parties sign on, than both parties loose contributions equally, so it's a wash (well, maybe not, because I'm pretty sure higher ed gives more to the Dems...but there's also pressure on the Dem side because the young and indebted are far more likely to be Dem voters).

all risk no reward.

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby JCougar » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:34 pm

patogordo wrote:all risk no reward.


Sounds like you're describing the fate of most law students' financial situations. :?

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby patogordo » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:40 pm

JCougar wrote:
patogordo wrote:all risk no reward.

Sounds like you're describing the fate of most law students' financial situations. :?

i mean i wasn't being purely cynical. the truth is that the budget is basically zero-sum these days; new spending has to be matched with savings. even if pissing off a powerful education lobby to save students wouldn't be a net loss politically because it could be bipartisan, the money saved by cutting stuff like PSLF can be used to buy new budget line items that are a net gain politically.

even better, you can play it like Obama did, and use programs like PSLF to buy political support from young voters while the program is free (b/c forgiveness is 10 years away) and then when the costs appear on the horizon you can ditch it because you no longer need them.

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby dresden doll » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:50 pm

patogordo wrote:even better, you can play it like Obama did, and use programs like PSLF to buy political support from young voters while the program is free (b/c forgiveness is 10 years away) and then when the costs appear on the horizon you can ditch it because you no longer need them.


That really is exactly what he did. I'm so MAF.

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby FKASunny » Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:11 pm

dresden doll wrote:
patogordo wrote:even better, you can play it like Obama did, and use programs like PSLF to buy political support from young voters while the program is free (b/c forgiveness is 10 years away) and then when the costs appear on the horizon you can ditch it because you no longer need them.


That really is exactly what he did. I'm so MAF.

Yep :(

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby Tanicius » Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:16 pm

dresden doll wrote:
patogordo wrote:even better, you can play it like Obama did, and use programs like PSLF to buy political support from young voters while the program is free (b/c forgiveness is 10 years away) and then when the costs appear on the horizon you can ditch it because you no longer need them.


That really is exactly what he did. I'm so MAF.


IIRC Bush Jr. signed PSLF into law.

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby LSL » Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:20 pm

dresden doll wrote:
patogordo wrote:even better, you can play it like Obama did, and use programs like PSLF to buy political support from young voters while the program is free (b/c forgiveness is 10 years away) and then when the costs appear on the horizon you can ditch it because you no longer need them.


That really is exactly what he did. I'm so MAF.


It's great too cuz it's like, "What who are you gonna vote for instead? The republicans?!" Giving people loan forgiveness was always the Dems call to make and ours to lose w/o much political consequence to them. So fucked up.

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby patogordo » Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:23 pm

Tanicius wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
patogordo wrote:even better, you can play it like Obama did, and use programs like PSLF to buy political support from young voters while the program is free (b/c forgiveness is 10 years away) and then when the costs appear on the horizon you can ditch it because you no longer need them.


That really is exactly what he did. I'm so MAF.


IIRC Bush Jr. signed PSLF into law.

proposed by dems and passed with veto-proof majority in both chambers. what could he do?

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby dresden doll » Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:26 pm

LSL wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
patogordo wrote:even better, you can play it like Obama did, and use programs like PSLF to buy political support from young voters while the program is free (b/c forgiveness is 10 years away) and then when the costs appear on the horizon you can ditch it because you no longer need them.


That really is exactly what he did. I'm so MAF.


It's great too cuz it's like, "What who are you gonna vote for instead? The republicans?!" Giving people loan forgiveness was always the Dems call to make and ours to lose w/o much political consequence to them. So fucked up.


TBF, they do need us not to stay home on election days. Obama's superior get-out-the-vote machine was one of the biggest reasons he won the second time around. They weren't really trying to convince anyone off the fence, just making sure that their sympathizers got to the voting polls.




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