PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

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09042014
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby 09042014 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:17 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
Big Dog wrote:
I'm not PAYE eligible unless they expand it, and our assumption was the tax bomb would be fixed. That legislation fix never happened, so I'm going to plan B, actually pay this shit off.


Smart plan, DF. (I never understood the fairly tale land of TLS that just assumed that that the tax bomb would go away. It very well might, but one is naive to plan on it.)

The real question is whether it's worth it to still take advantage of PAYE and 20 year forgiveness even if the tax bomb stays in place.


For most people it still is worth it. But you have to save for the tax bomb the whole time.

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby Big Dog » Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:22 pm

The real question is whether it's worth it to still take advantage of PAYE and 20 year forgiveness even if the tax bomb stays in place.


20 years is a LONG time for that debt to be hanging on your shoulders. Try to buy a home? Get married. Have kids.

One never knows what Congress will do with future tax rates. Spousal income in or out? Deductions/tax bomb capped at a certain amount of income 20 years hence? (Highly likely, imo since it would be politically stupid for Congress to waive outstanding debt for someone who is now making of six+ figures, putting them in the 1% at that time.)

So my response would be: depends on what your other options are. Attending NYU at sticker with a plan to rely on PAYE is probably not a good financial plan, IMO. I'd rather take merit money at a lower 14.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:27 pm

Hipster but Athletic wrote:Here's a fucking tip: You aren't fucking special. The value of the time you dedicate to social justice is worth virtually nothing above your next best replacement, assuming you even are the best available and didn't just luck into your position. If you think social justice is so fucking important, maximize your earnings potential in whatever domain you legitimately think can do that. If you've gone to law school, then do private shit. Then fucking donate your money to social justice. You can't call it trolling every time somebody calls you out for complaining about your salary in the job that you chose that pays less than you could have earned, but is easier to do and makes you feel like a prince. Your need to tell the world via your resume, your car's bumper stickers, and your unshaven vagina that you're morally superior should obviously mean you get less money. And worldtraverler's incredibly offensive and retarded point about there being a problem of people pursuing social justice from privileged families is inane. To suggest that someone going into public interest bc they can afford it is more likely morally inferior than a poor guy pursuing it is bullshit. You made no claim about the quality of student going down. If anything, those people will have a better sense of what is actually right & fair, and won't just immediately support policies that seem to benefit people who look like them. See: minority groups all vote the same.

Jesus fucking Christ. Chip on your shoulder much? How is PI work "easier to do"? How on earth are you supposed to "donate your money to social justice" if you've got a quarter million in debt from law school? If everyone took the "donate your money" route, how the hell would anything get done? Nor does talking about why public service funding is important imply that public service people are morally superior than people in the private sector - that's all out of your own defensiveness. Nor has anyone said that the problem with only rich people going into PI law is that they're morally inferior - it's that they have a limited perspective on the world, in the same way that someone who grew up poor has a limited perspective on the world. You want people from a range of backgrounds doing this, not one homogenous group. And where the fuck do you get off saying only rich people vote to support policies that are right and fair and not just policies that benefit people who look like them, the way minorities do? Neither group has a monopoly on fairness, but neither has a monopoly on unfairness, either.

Your post below this one has some valid points but this is just bullshit.

I know you live to troll and the thread has moved on, but I had to respond to this.

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LSL
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby LSL » Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:28 pm

Desert Fox wrote:I'm not really trolling. I wouldn't retroactively fuck people relying on it now. But there is ZERO evidence that paying 300k so Hippy Hillary can get a NYU education in LAW is even remotely a good use of funds. It's welfare for the privileged.

Also, making it 25 years still means you won't pay it off. It just means you'll pay more of it off. You would still be able to afford to do PI. You just have to pay like 5% of your income to student loans. That's not asking too much, especially compared to the loans the rest of society has.

Unlimited 10 year PLIF is a bad policy. Objectively.


Yeah, I don't consider people who come out of law school with a lower-middle to middle-class salary "privileged." And honestly, paid-for (or low-cost) higher ed is a welfare we should have extended to these "privileged" a long freaking time ago. Either way, it's just talking past the real problem to go after PSLF. We should all focus on pushing Congress to fix the real problems of higher ed that would ultimately fix this problem too rather than saddling up for dividing up which loan forgiveness program is more welfare-hoggish.

I mean, like you said, 25 years under PAYE is still a bad incentives program (just less bad). I remember running a $60,000 salary through the gov'ts PAYE calculator once (available if you log-in to the Direct Loans website) and it put me at paying $130k rather than $200k. So, they'd forgive a mere 70k (for a little better than shitlaw) rather than $130-140k (depending on 10% or 15% income). Is a cushion from shitlaw something we want the gov't to pay for? (to play devil's advocate). Still sounds like a shitty incentive to me that the gov't should attack if it wanted to go down that route. Really, they should just fix the fucking problem rather than dicing us up like this.
Last edited by LSL on Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:31 pm

Big Dog wrote:So my response would be: depends on what your other options are. Attending NYU at sticker with a plan to rely on PAYE is probably not a good financial plan, IMO. I'd rather take merit money at a lower 14.

I'm talking about what to do once you're already pot committed. I'm gonna have 200k in debt whether I like it or not.

As for buying a house/having kids, you'll have plenty of money for those things if you put the money you would have put towards loans into some other savings vehicle. Where this strategy really doesn't make sense is if you start making enough that you'll just have the whole thing paid off before forgiveness hits even if you only make minimum PAYE payments.

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worldtraveler
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby worldtraveler » Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:37 pm

Hipster but Athletic wrote:Here's a fucking tip: You aren't fucking special. The value of the time you dedicate to social justice is worth virtually nothing above your next best replacement, assuming you even are the best available and didn't just luck into your position. If you think social justice is so fucking important, maximize your earnings potential in whatever domain you legitimately think can do that. If you've gone to law school, then do private shit. Then fucking donate your money to social justice. You can't call it trolling every time somebody calls you out for complaining about your salary in the job that you chose that pays less than you could have earned, but is easier to do and makes you feel like a prince. Your need to tell the world via your resume, your car's bumper stickers, and your unshaven vagina that you're morally superior should obviously mean you get less money. And worldtraverler's incredibly offensive and retarded point about there being a problem of people pursuing social justice from privileged families is inane. To suggest that someone going into public interest bc they can afford it is more likely morally inferior than a poor guy pursuing it is bullshit. You made no claim about the quality of student going down. If anything, those people will have a better sense of what is actually right & fair, and won't just immediately support policies that seem to benefit people who look like them. See: minority groups all vote the same.


Nony already responded to the rest of that nonsense, but really? Minorities all vote the same? That's either poor trolling or idiocy even by your standards.

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Rahviveh
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby Rahviveh » Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:49 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
Big Dog wrote:So my response would be: depends on what your other options are. Attending NYU at sticker with a plan to rely on PAYE is probably not a good financial plan, IMO. I'd rather take merit money at a lower 14.

I'm talking about what to do once you're already pot committed. I'm gonna have 200k in debt whether I like it or not.

As for buying a house/having kids, you'll have plenty of money for those things if you put the money you would have put towards loans into some other savings vehicle. Where this strategy really doesn't make sense is if you start making enough that you'll just have the whole thing paid off before forgiveness hits even if you only make minimum PAYE payments.


I've never bought a house but I'm not convinced it'll be a problem under PAYE, since they mainly look at your monthly payments in relation to your income. So it'll depend on what other debt you have and the monthly payments you're making.

As for having kids, your payments also go down in relation to family size.

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby Big Dog » Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:16 pm

I've never bought a house but I'm not convinced it'll be a problem under PAYE, since they mainly look at your monthly payments in relation to your income.


Not quite. There are two ratios that establish your borrowing capacity: 1) mortgage payment/wages; 2) total debt payments/wages. It's the latter which PAYE will impact. For the cheapest mortgage rates, the conservative ratios are ~28%/36% with 20% down.

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Rahviveh
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby Rahviveh » Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:20 pm

Big Dog wrote:
I've never bought a house but I'm not convinced it'll be a problem under PAYE, since they mainly look at your monthly payments in relation to your income.


Not quite. There are two ratios that establish your borrowing capacity: 1) mortgage payment/wages; 2) total debt payments/wages. It's the latter which PAYE will impact. For the cheapest mortgage rates, the conservative ratios are ~28%/36% with 20% down.


Your total debt payments with PAYE are only 7-8% in relation to income. I agree there's an impact but if you manage the rest of your money conservatively I don't think it's a big obstacle

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FKASunny
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby FKASunny » Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:22 pm

Big Dog wrote:
I've never bought a house but I'm not convinced it'll be a problem under PAYE, since they mainly look at your monthly payments in relation to your income.


Not quite. There are two ratios that establish your borrowing capacity: 1) mortgage payment/wages; 2) total debt payments/wages. It's the latter which PAYE will impact. For the cheapest mortgage rates, the conservative ratios are ~28%/36% with 20% down.


Total debt payments/wages sounds a lot like "your monthly payments in relation to your income."

Or were you just saying "not quite" to be a pedantic twat?

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dresden doll
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby dresden doll » Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:31 pm

worldtraveler wrote:Nony already responded to the rest of that nonsense, but really? Minorities all vote the same? That's either poor trolling or idiocy even by your standards.


Just go get yourself a corporate job, bro. The endless money you make will then write briefs on behalf of trafficking victims all by itself.

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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby patogordo » Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:33 pm

dresden doll wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:Nony already responded to the rest of that nonsense, but really? Minorities all vote the same? That's either poor trolling or idiocy even by your standards.


Just go get yourself a corporate job, bro. The endless money you make will then write briefs on behalf of trafficking victims all by itself.

use your money to pay poor people to write their own briefs. two birds with one stone.

09042014
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby 09042014 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:34 pm

patogordo wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:Nony already responded to the rest of that nonsense, but really? Minorities all vote the same? That's either poor trolling or idiocy even by your standards.


Just go get yourself a corporate job, bro. The endless money you make will then write briefs on behalf of trafficking victims all by itself.

use your money to pay poor people to write their own briefs. two birds with one stone.


TBF, the solution DD and WT are arguing for is actually doing that by sending them to CUNY School of LAw for 300k for free.

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worldtraveler
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby worldtraveler » Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:37 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
patogordo wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:Nony already responded to the rest of that nonsense, but really? Minorities all vote the same? That's either poor trolling or idiocy even by your standards.


Just go get yourself a corporate job, bro. The endless money you make will then write briefs on behalf of trafficking victims all by itself.

use your money to pay poor people to write their own briefs. two birds with one stone.


TBF, the solution DD and WT are arguing for is actually doing that by sending them to CUNY School of LAw for 300k for free.


That's a weird way to phrase that, because if more law schools operated like CUNY we wouldn't have this problem.

09042014
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby 09042014 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:38 pm

worldtraveler wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
patogordo wrote:
dresden doll wrote:Just go get yourself a corporate job, bro. The endless money you make will then write briefs on behalf of trafficking victims all by itself.

use your money to pay poor people to write their own briefs. two birds with one stone.


TBF, the solution DD and WT are arguing for is actually doing that by sending them to CUNY School of LAw for 300k for free.


That's a weird way to phrase that, because if more law schools operated like CUNY we wouldn't have this problem.


Yea, true, their rates are amazing. Good for them.

There is no reason PI folks shouldn't go there instead of having Uncle Sam paying 300k for NYU.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:48 pm

CUNY's cheap but for a school that focuses on nothing but PI it sucks at placing its students into PI jobs.

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dresden doll
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby dresden doll » Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:53 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
patogordo wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:Nony already responded to the rest of that nonsense, but really? Minorities all vote the same? That's either poor trolling or idiocy even by your standards.


Just go get yourself a corporate job, bro. The endless money you make will then write briefs on behalf of trafficking victims all by itself.

use your money to pay poor people to write their own briefs. two birds with one stone.


TBF, the solution DD and WT are arguing for is actually doing that by sending them to CUNY School of LAw for 300k for free.


AND get PI orgs to stop selecting from top law schools. TBF, I guess they'll be forced to do that if that becomes the only financially viable way for a person to choose public service.

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dresden doll
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby dresden doll » Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:54 pm

patogordo wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:Nony already responded to the rest of that nonsense, but really? Minorities all vote the same? That's either poor trolling or idiocy even by your standards.


Just go get yourself a corporate job, bro. The endless money you make will then write briefs on behalf of trafficking victims all by itself.

use your money to pay poor people to write their own briefs. two birds with one stone.



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

09042014
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby 09042014 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:57 pm

dresden doll wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
patogordo wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
Just go get yourself a corporate job, bro. The endless money you make will then write briefs on behalf of trafficking victims all by itself.

use your money to pay poor people to write their own briefs. two birds with one stone.


TBF, the solution DD and WT are arguing for is actually doing that by sending them to CUNY School of LAw for 300k for free.


AND get PI orgs to stop selecting from top law schools. TBF, I guess they'll be forced to do that if that becomes the only financially viable way for a person to choose public service.


Exactly. They can only be picky if you all are in a race to the top with government money.

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patogordo
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby patogordo » Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:59 pm

in an ideal world the PSLF leeches would be replaced by HLSers on laxbrah scholarships

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worldtraveler
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby worldtraveler » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:03 pm

dresden doll wrote:AND get PI orgs to stop selecting from top law schools. TBF, I guess they'll be forced to do that if that becomes the only financially viable way for a person to choose public service.



There will still be a few people who can afford to go to an elite school and go into PI. Especially in international human rights, almost everyone comes from a wealthy background already because you have to have spent time working abroad and speak a bunch of languages.

Maybe we should hit up HBA's parents to pay for everyone.

09042014
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby 09042014 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:05 pm

worldtraveler wrote:
dresden doll wrote:AND get PI orgs to stop selecting from top law schools. TBF, I guess they'll be forced to do that if that becomes the only financially viable way for a person to choose public service.



There will still be a few people who can afford to go to an elite school and go into PI. Especially in international human rights, almost everyone comes from a wealthy background already because you have to have spent time working abroad and speak a bunch of languages.

Maybe we should hit up HBA's parents to pay for everyone.


Sure that will happen. But there no good policy reason for the government to blow 300k so that YOU get to do PI instead of a richie-rich. Do you honestly think that is a good use of 300k?

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dresden doll
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby dresden doll » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:08 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Sure that will happen. But there no good policy reason for the government to blow 300k so that YOU get to do PI instead of a richie-rich. Do you honestly think that is a good use of 300k?


At the same time, in the grand scheme of things, this program is hardly a mark on the governmental budget ledger. It might not be the most efficient use of their 300k but I'm pretty sure they could also be focusing their energies on cutting off programs where that 300k is being put to far worse uses.

In other words, I want them to go find someone else to screw.

09042014
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby 09042014 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:11 pm

dresden doll wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Sure that will happen. But there no good policy reason for the government to blow 300k so that YOU get to do PI instead of a richie-rich. Do you honestly think that is a good use of 300k?


At the same time, in the grand scheme of things, this program is hardly a mark on the governmental budget ledger. It might not be the most efficient use of their 300k but I'm pretty sure they could also be focusing their energies on cutting off programs where that 300k is being put to far worse uses.

In other words, I want them to go find someone else to screw.


No shit you want to spare your ox from being gored. It's only not a mark on the ledger because the program is new. When it goes going it could be very expensive.

It's extremely self centered to think your personal happiness should be subsided to the tune of 300k.

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worldtraveler
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Re: PAYE Legislation Thread- Pepper Anus Yuppie Eleemosynaries

Postby worldtraveler » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:13 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:
dresden doll wrote:AND get PI orgs to stop selecting from top law schools. TBF, I guess they'll be forced to do that if that becomes the only financially viable way for a person to choose public service.



There will still be a few people who can afford to go to an elite school and go into PI. Especially in international human rights, almost everyone comes from a wealthy background already because you have to have spent time working abroad and speak a bunch of languages.

Maybe we should hit up HBA's parents to pay for everyone.


Sure that will happen. But there no good policy reason for the government to blow 300k so that YOU get to do PI instead of a richie-rich. Do you honestly think that is a good use of 300k?[/quote

Depends on what I'm able to accomplish, really. But I also think there should be better regulations on just how much law schools can charge, and better scholarship options for PI students. Like Tanicius said, a lot of those were cut because schools said "Just do PSLF!" This is really a problem the government created for itself when it lets schools charge whatever they want and use virtually unlimited access to government sponsored loans without regard to employment prospects and starting salaries.




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